Someone Please Tell Me My Friend Is Wrong

[Lifterforlife]

wicked good info.. which interestingly enough on the surface seems to controvert what i said earlier.. but lets look a little more closely:

my take is you MUST eat preresistance training, my only personal experience is that if i eat less than 15 minutes prior to training i A) WILL vomit and B) Will cramp like nobodies business... the former is a purely a personal thing, the latter is just another personal experience... and the experiences of a couple of monsters i know. so it is not to say that shouldnt eat pre workout, i dont know how you can train heavy without it, actually, but i give myself an hours window... works for me...

My understanding and utilization of PWO protein consumption coupled with simple sugars has NADA to do with glycogen replenishment, and everthing to do delivery. i will reread that article you posted, but it doesnt apppear that he suggests NOT having carbs post workout, just attempts to debunk their must have status re: glycogen replacement... ok, cool... do you have any paper on the 'myth' surroundign the whole 'insulin spike/protein delivery' theory? THAT is the reason i fell for (and still do) do the rALA, dextrose and whey PWO shake.. glycogen be damned.

All in all great read GREAT and k to you, mon. May i ask: who pointed this to you/where did you come accross it? are you just an avid lay person, or is your profession/study major a nutrition or sport nutrition field?

Tell me.... i want to learn.




.

I posted this as learning/reading/critique material. Nowhere did I state a ya or nay to it.

PWO nutrition is handled differently by different folks.

I for one have always advocated gearing your pwo nutrition, simple sugar amount(yes, this is what I use), to your energy expenditure. Some days, such as leg days, if you train them correctly, the need is surely there for a good amount of quick pwo nutrition, just to stabilize things, i.e...blood sugars, nervous system stimulation, etc.. This must indeed take place before protein synthesis can begin.

On the other hand, if you just do arms, though you may indeed have worked them hard, it is hardly the same trauma on the body as a heavy all out leg day. Therefore, to help keep fat in check, it would make sense that you do not need as much simple sugars if any on this day.

I have competed in 12 contests. I know a thing or 2 about glycogen depletion. Trust me, it is much, much harder to do than most folks for some reason give it. Strength training, in and of itself comes nowhere near glycogen depletion. Marathoners, bike racers, decathalons, there it makes sense, high depeltion levels well take place.

In fact, if you look at the studies that started all the simple sugar pwo stuff, they were conducted on cyclists, not bodybuilders/weightlifters.

Lesson learned, if you don't want to gain more fat than necessary, gear your pwo nutrition for your needs.

 

[ChefWide]

I posted this as learning/reading/critique material. Nowhere did I state a ya or nay to it.

PWO nutrition is handled differently by different folks.

I for one have always advocated gearing your pwo nutrition, simple sugar amount(yes, this is what I use), to your energy expenditure. Some days, such as leg days, if you train them correctly, the need is surely there for a good amount of quick pwo nutrition, just to stabilize things, i.e...blood sugars, nervous system stimulation, etc.. This must indeed take place before protein synthesis can begin.

On the other hand, if you just do arms, though you may indeed have worked them hard, it is hardly the same trauma on the body as a heavy all out leg day. Therefore, to help keep fat in check, it would make sense that you do not need as much simple sugars if any on this day.

I have competed in 12 contests. I know a thing or 2 about glycogen depletion. Trust me, it is much, much harder to do than most folks for some reason give it. Strength training, in and of itself comes nowhere near glycogen depletion. Marathoners, bike racers, decathalons, there it makes sense, high depeltion levels well take place.

In fact, if you look at the studies that started all the simple sugar pwo stuff, they were conducted on cyclists, not bodybuilders/weightlifters.

Lesson learned, if you don't want to gain more fat than necessary, gear your pwo nutrition for your needs.

wicked great advice accross the board.. question: what kind of criteria might a strength athlete use for guaging WHAT and HOW much to replace? is it purely trial and error until you get the results-to-intuition ratio right? or are there conventional calculations available?

facinated. want to learn.

 

[Lifterforlife]

All in all great read GREAT and k to you, mon. May i ask: who pointed this to you/where did you come accross it? are you just an avid lay person, or is your profession/study major a nutrition or sport nutrition field?

Tell me.... i want to learn.




.

Missed this part of the post. I have made a life out of proper nutrition. Been a researcher for years, in fact almost 30 yrs. in the health field. My goal is not to debate anyone, but to supply facts and counterinformation that may be able to be learned from.

I believe even from wrong/bad information we can learn the right things to do.

I have some credentials to back up what I do, first off 30 yrs. experience in the field. Been bodybuilding for more than 20 of it, started and was doing it when Arnold first came over here, had not done one thing yet in movies or won his first Olympia. Even went to see his first bomb of a movie, Hercules in New York, which you surely don't hear about. It was so bad, they dubbed his voice. (I was always a Franco fan by the way)

I myself have competed in 12 contests, highest profile one Natural Northern USA. I live the life I advocate, and just try to dispense help to folks. Training clients, helping dispense diet information that can actually be lived with, etc. Also, such as avoid the mistakes I have made, save yourself time. What we do is hard enough, and the unscrupulous supplement companies out there market to a huge crowd of gullible folks. If I can save anyone years of wasted work, or even hundreds of dollars, I choose to do so.

 

[JKurz1]

bro, after a hard workout you need protein and dextrose or maltodextrin
The reason for you get a simple sugar that spikes your insulin levels and with the protein it sends it to your tore cells> AKA Muscles Its a proven fact

so dude....your buddy is 100% correct.......insulin + fat = disaster!

 

[dgatehouse]

Wow, what an interesting read lifterforlife. So what would you suggest as far as preworkout meal, followed by I guess PWN (post workout nutrition) I guess would be a good term.

Also, I need to spread out my K before giving you more. Great read.

 

[JKurz1]

Wow, what an interesting read lifterforlife. So what would you suggest as far as preworkout meal, followed by I guess PWN (post workout nutrition) I guess would be a good term.

Also, I need to spread out my K before giving you more. Great read.

It's qute simple. A good whole protein/complex carb meal 1-2 hours pre (1 hour if it's a shake i.e. oats and casein) followed by a pro/high gi shake immidiately post (i.e. many use a 2-1 ratio of whey and dextrose, some others use fruit, and others use grains....my theory? any card will do just get enogh of it) followed by another wholesome pro/carb meal and then finish off the night with all protein fat combos..........

EX
CUP BROWN RICE
2 CHX BREASTS

TRAIN

40G WHEY/80G OF DEXT

1 YAM
TUNA OR CHICKEN

BEFORE BED
COTTAGE CHEESE
ALMONDS AND PEANUTS

 

[dgatehouse]

Cool, thanks.

 

[Lifterforlife]

jkurz is for the most part right on. Pre workout I totally agree, and post I agree on high glycemic carbs with protein. I am not a fan of much fructose here, as it tops off liver glycogen, and we want metabolic pathways to point toward more insulin dependent pathways.

Now, the next meal, is where we vary a bit. I believe if you are trying to gain, this is a meal if you are going to have high glycemic carbs to do it in. Like a white potato. I believe the "window" is still wide open at this point, and uptake is high. If you read the post I posted by David Barr, he recommends another shake. To his credit, Paul Cribb, researcher for AST sports science researched this as much as 5 yrs. or more ago. He had his clients have their next meal consisting of a high glycemic carb source(about an hour later) like a red potato, or white rice, which is lower glycemic than dextrose of course, but still higher than normal. With of course a high clean protein source.

Now, will this protocol build huge muscle? Of course not, it is what you do over weeks, months, years that in the end pays dividends. On the other hand, can you speed up the process just a bit? This I believe you can do with proper timing of nutrients. It may indeed be small, and you may choose not to do this every time. But, if you ever do want to eat a higher glycemic carb, I would suggest it be in this pwo meal.

As far as the food partitioning, I already stated my stance on this, and can back it up. If you look at the references cited in these arguments, every study suggesting that macro composition matters is looking at different protein intakes, with higher being better. Duh! People on high-protein always tend to eat less. So do people who reduce carbs or switch to lower gi foods. Early low-fat studies found the same: take out a calorically dense food and people eat less. It is easy to interpret some metabolic advantage but what is actually going on is that dietary changes make people eat less automatically(i.e...not mixing carbs and fats).

The reason food partitioning works to any degree is not the partitioning effects, but the result of being deprived in calories in some way, thus a caloric deficit. I do this myself when contest dieting, but just in an effort to cut calories. Any diet scheme, no matter what the name, whether Atkins, Pritikin, South Beach, Metabolic type, in the end work in one way. They all deprive you of calories in some manner, thus combined with exercise you lose weight.(or not even with exercise).

 

[JKurz1]

personally, If I was going to have another high gi meal after training, I wouldnt do the dextrost...I'd train, then have a white potatoe and whey....then 1-2 hrs later, oats or brown rice, and chx or something....

I know many who refrain from shakes.....or their shakes are whey and choc milk and a mutigrain bagel.......I firmly believe any carb will do..........spike the body with that much sugar just doesnt feel good to me nor can it possible be healthy day in a day out...think of the alternatives, sweet tarts, nerds, etc....junk.......it equates in my book to training than having a beer......

 

[Lifterforlife]

personally, If I was going to have another high gi meal after training, I wouldnt do the dextrost...I'd train, then have a white potatoe and whey....then 1-2 hrs later, oats or brown rice, and chx or something....

I know many who refrain from shakes.....or their shakes are whey and choc milk and a mutigrain bagel.......I firmly believe any carb will do..........spike the body with that much sugar just doesnt feel good to me nor can it possible be healthy day in a day out...think of the alternatives, sweet tarts, nerds, etc....junk.......it equates in my book to training than having a beer......

Again, I agree with you for the most part, we are not that far off in our assertions. I made another post I believe it was in this same thread(will look for it), the reasons you state are precisely why guaging your post workout shake to your energy expenditure is critical, or you will indeed end up feeling like crap. It would only make sense to have more on a heavy leg day, than an all arm day. You will feel like crap and tired if you do not have a high glycemic pwo shake on an all out leg day usually. This will help restore blood sugars, deliver insulin for nutrient takeup, get the nervous system back in order(all are taxed heavily on these type days). On an all arm day for instance, you may indeed work them hard, but still is nowhere near the taxation of the body(trauma induced) as a leg day. So, cutting your drink back would be sensible. One needs to get in tune so to speak with your own body. The number one thing I preach to serious clients is "learn your body".