First Cycle - Test C - Did Homework!

[somaddict]

Hello all,

I am getting back into lifting and I'm trying to plan my life for the next 9 months! I have tried to do as much research as possible and my head is spinning by now. I have lifted before and have had decent results with a clean diet and 4 days a week of training.

These are my current stats:

Gender: Male
Age: 31
Height: 6'2"
Weight: 170lbs.
Blood Pressure: A little high due to Vyvanse (Newer Adderall extended release drug)
Body Type: Ectomorph
Gyno Prone: I had gynecomastia develop on one side when I was 12 that grew until I was around 20 and stopped. I had it surgically removed at around 25 and no other symptoms seem to have surfaced.

I'm especially thin currently due to poor diet and lack of excercise. My stable weight when eating right is around 180lbs. The highest weight I achieved while training last, 4 years ago, was around 200lbs. That being said, I realize I have a lot of natural gains to accomplish first before considering a cycle. I plan to train 4 days a week on a clean diet for 2-3 months to get closer to my genetic potential. I have posted below my planned diet throughout the projected 8-9 month period. Please feel free to critique it.

Diet:

M1: 100 grams oats, 5 egg whites and 1 yolk, banana, broccoli, 1 scoop whey
M2: 250 grams lean meat, 300 grams potato, 1 TBS olive oil, green salad
M3: same as m2
M4: same as m2
M5: 250 grams salmon, 50 grams brown rice (uncooked weight), broccoli
M6: lowfat/low sodium ricotta cheese or lowfat/low sodium greek yogurt, 2 TBS peanut butter,

Prior training: 2 scoops whey, 2 bananas
During training: power aid with bcaa
PWO: 2 scoops whey, 100 grams oats, apple

After the first 2-3 months I plan to start a basic Test C cycle. I have read so many posts and so many forums covering this topic and it is frankly a lot of contradictory information. I developed the rough cycle outline below based on what seemed to be the most widely recognized correct basics paired with what I perceive will provide a "better safe that sorry approach" to my potential for gyno. I added Dbol/Nolva for boost/AI, Aromasin for additional AI/Reduced Water Retention on cycle. The Test C would be administered twice a week at 250mg each. PCT seems to be the most variable among all suggestions, so I went with what appeared most geared for me, but I know Clomid is also suggested by many. Please feel free to rip this all to shreds. I am simply trying to display that I've done some amount of research.

Cycle:

Week 1: Test C 500mg & Dbol 25mg ED & Nolva 10 mg ED
Week 2: Test C 500mg & Dbol 25mg ED & Nolva 10 mg ED
Week 3: Test C 500mg & Dbol 25mg ED & Nolva 10 mg ED
Week 4: Test C 500mg & Dbol 25mg ED & Nolva 10 mg ED
Week 5: Test C 500mg & Aromasin 12.5mg E3D
Week 6: Test C 500mg & Aromasin 12.5mg E3D
Week 7: Test C 500mg & Aromasin 12.5mg E3D
Week 8: Test C 500mg & Aromasin 12.5mg E3D
Week 9: Test C 500mg & Aromasin 12.5mg E3D
Week 10: Test C 500mg & Aromasin 12.5mg E3D
Week 11: Test C 500mg & Aromasin 12.5mg E3D
Week 12: Test C 500mg & Aromasin 12.5mg & HCG 1000U M/W/F
Week 13: HCG 1000U M/W/F
Week 14: HCG 1000U M/W/F
Week 15: Nolva 20 mg ED & Aromasin 25 mg E3D
Week 16: Nolva 20 mg ED & Aromasin 25 mg E3D
Week 17: Nolva 20 mg ED & Aromasin 25 mg E3D
Week 18: Nolva 20 mg ED & Aromasin 25 mg E3D
Week 19: Aromasin 25 mg E3D
Week 20: Aromasin 25 mg E3D
Week 21: Clean
Week 22: Clean

 

[OSUBEAVERS]

Bro I would do the hcg on cycle up to the last shot. 250 every 4th day

 

[somaddict]

Bro I would do the hcg on cycle up to the last shot. 250 every 4th day

Thanks for the reply. HCG is definitely one of the drugs that I have been confused about. For instance, drjmw seems to suggest this repeatedly:

"Begin this cycle the week after last AAS intake.
Weeks one thru three: 1,000U hcg, IM, Monday, Wednesday, Friday; 20mg Nolvadex daily. [50mg Clomid daily is added to the cycle if the athlete is coming off a prolonged (12 week+), 600mg+total, weekly AAS dosing (heavy)].

Weeks four thru six: 20mg Nolvadex daily. (50mg Clomid daily if you used it the first three weeks)

Weeks seven, eight: clean. Use this time to evaluate your previous AAS cycle and your recovery. Begin planning your next AAS cycle.

I have posted the following statement a million times, and still 95% of the steroid athletes ignore it: "Blood testing is essential to determine your baseline, see how your body reacts and to see if you recover.""

But then I have seen references to taking it on cycle like here:

fitnessuncovered.co.uk/post-cycle-therapy.php

If one scrolls down to the HCG section it says:

"It was once commonly used during PCT in the belief it will aid testosterone restoration, however this is flawed due to its mechanism action. The drug mimics the effects of LH in the body, stimulating the Leydig cells to produce testosterone in the testes. This can be fruitful in rectify existing, or avoiding testicular atrophy on cycle. It will not aid the process of recovery in the post cycle phrase however, as the drug will bring about heightened oestrogen levels due to the greater aromatising of the testosterone being produced in the testes, thus bringing about greater inhibition of the HPTA.

It is therefore wise to use HCG for rectify existing, or avoiding testicular atrophy on cycle, and possibly prior to PCT to help bring the testes back up to condition so they are more effective at producing testosterone. We should leave about a week prior to PCT, with any HCG administration occurring before this."

Is the second theory actually more current and correct? I would be interested to here some other opinions on this. Also, if HCG is taken on cycle, would Aromasin be overkill on cycle?

Thanks in advance!

 

[OSUBEAVERS]

HCG - Unraveled

By Eric M. Potratz (Email)

Eric M. Potratz has developed his education in the field of endocrinology and performance enhancement through years of research, counseling, and real world experience. Over the past five years he has been a private consultant for hundreds of athletes and bodybuilders alike, and is the founder & president of Primordial Performance.

PCT is a must upon cessation of steroid use. Many great PCT protocols have been outlined over the years, and many individuals have had success with following such protocols. Nevertheless, what works can always work better, and I intend to show you the most effective way to recover from AAS. This is especially the case for those that have had a lack of success following popular advice. In this article I will address the misunderstanding and misuse of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) and show you the most efficient way to use hCG for the fastest and most complete recovery.

HCG unraveled –

Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) is a peptide hormone that mimics the action of luteinizing hormone (LH). LH is the hormone that stimulates the testes to produce testosterone. (1) More specifically LH is the primary signal sent from the pituitary to the testes, which stimulates the leydig cells within the testes to produce testosterone.

When steroids are administered, LH levels rapidly decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the testes to stop producing testosterone, which causes rapid onset of testicular degeneration. The testicular degeneration begins with a reduction of leydig cell volume, and is then followed by rapid reductions in intra-testicular testosterone (ITT), peroxisomes, and Insulin-like factor 3 (INSL3) – All important bio-markers and factors for proper testicular function and testosterone production. (2-6,19) However, this degeneration can be prevented by a small maintenance dose of hCG ran throughout the cycle. Unfortunately, most steroid users have been engrained to believe that hCG should be used after a cycle, during PCT. Upon reviewing the science and basic endocrinology you will see that a faster and more complete recovery is possible if hCG is ran during a cycle.

Firstly, we must understand the clinical history of hCG to understand its purpose and its most efficient application. Many popular “steroid profiles” advocate using hCG at a dose of 2500-5000iu once or twice a week. These were the kind of dosages used in the historical (1960’s) hCG studies for hypogonadal men who had reduced testicular sensitivity due to prolonged LH deficiency. (21,22) A prolonged LH deficiency causes the testes to desensitize, requiring a higher hCG dose for ample stimulation. In men with normal LH levels and normal testicular sensitivity, the maximum increase of testosterone is seen from a dose of only 250iu, with minimal increases obtained from 500iu or even 5000iu. (2,11) (It appears the testes maximum secretion of testosterone is about 140% above their normal capacity.) (12-18) If you have allowed your testes to desensitize over the length of a typical steroid cycle, (8-16 weeks) then you would require a higher dose to elicit a response in an attempt to restore normal testicular size and function – but there is cost to this, and a high probability that you won’t regain full testicular function.

One term that is critical to understand is testosterone secretion capacity which is synonymous to testicular sensitivity. This is the amount of testosterone your testes can produce from any given LH or hCG stimulation. Therefore, if you have reduced testosterone secretion capacity (reduced testicular sensitivity), it will take more LH or hCG stimulation to produce the same result as if you had normal testosterone secretion capacity. If you reduce your testosterone secretion capacity too much, then no amount of LH or hCG stimulation will trigger normal testosterone production – and this leads to permanently reduced testosterone production.

To get an idea of how quickly you can reduce your testosterone secretion capacity from your average steroid cycle, consider this: LH levels are rapidly decreased by the 2nd day of steroid administration. (2,9,10) By shutting down the LH signal and allowing the testis to be non-functional over a 12-16 week period, leydig cell volume decreases 90%, ITT decreases 94%, INSL3 decreases 95%, while the capacity to secrete testosterone decreases as much as 98%. (2-6)

Note: visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone. (4) This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, when the testes may only appear 5-10% smaller, the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or hCG stimulation can actually be significantly reduced to 98% of their normal production. (3-5) The point here is to not judge testosterone secretion capacity by testicular size.



The decreased testosterone secretion capacity caused by steroid use was well demonstrated in a study on power athletes who used steroids for 16 weeks, and were then administered 4500iu hCG post cycle. It was found that the steroid users were about 20 times less responsive to hCG, when compared to normal men who did not use steroids. (8) In other words, their testosterone secretion capacity was dramatically reduced because they did not receive an LH signal for 16 weeks. The testes essentially became desensitized and crippled. Case studies with steroid using patients show that aggressive long-term treatment with hCG at dosages as high as 10,000iu E3D for 12 weeks were unable to return full testicular size. (7) Another study with men using low dose steroids for 6 weeks showed unsuccessful return of Insulin-like factor-3 (INSL3) concentration in the testes upon 5000iu/wk of HCG treatment for 12 weeks (6) (INSL3 is an important biomarker for testosterone production potential and sperm production. 20)

These studies show that postponing hCG usage until the end of a steroid cycle increases your need for a higher dose of hCG, and decreases your odds of a full recovery. As a consequence to using a higher dose of hCG at the end of a cycle, estrogen will be increased disproportionately to testosterone, which then causes further HPTA suppression (from high estrogen) while increasing the risk of gyno. (11) For example, high doses of hCG have been found to raise estradiol up to 165%, while only raising testosterone 140%. (11) Higher doses of hCG are also known to reduce LH receptor concentration and degrade the enzymes responsible for testosterone synthesis within the testes (12,13,19 ) -- the last thing someone wants during recovery. While these negative effects of hCG can be partly mitigated by the use of a SERM such as tamoxifen, it will create further problems associated with using a toxic SERM (covered in another article).

In light of the above evidence, it becomes obvious that we must take preventative measures to avoid this testicular degeneration. We must protect our testicular sensitivity. Besides, with hCG being so readily available, and such a painless shot, it makes you wonder why anyone wouldn’t use it on cycle.

Based on studies with normal men using steroids, 100iu HCG administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function and ITT levels, without causing desensitization typically associated with higher doses of hCG. (2) It is important that low-dose hCG is started before testicular sensitivity is reduced, which appears to rapidly manifest within the first 2-3 weeks of steroid use. Also, it’s important to discontinue the hCG before you start PCT so your leydig cells are given a chance to re-sensitize to your body’s own LH production. (To help further enhance testicular sensitivity, the dietary supplement Toco-8 may be used)

A more convenient alternative to the above recommendation would be a twice a week shot of 200iu hCG, or possibly a once a week shot of 500iu. However, it is most desirable to adhere to a lower more frequent dose of hCG to mimic the body’s natural LH release and minimize estrogen conversion. If you are starting hCG late in the cycle, one could calculate a rough estimate for their required hCG ‘kick starting’ dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence, since the testes will be desensitized, thus requiring a higher dose. (ie. 40iu x 60 days = 2400iu HCG dose)

Note: If following the on cycle hCG protocol, hCG should NOT be used for PCT.

Recap –

For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 100iu hCG ED starting 7 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG about the same time as your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG about 10 days before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even clearance in hormone levels, while initiating LH and FSH production from the pituitary, to begin stimulating your testes to produce testosterone. Remember, recovery doesn’t begin until you are off hCG since your body will not release its own LH until the hCG has cleared the system.

In conclusion, we have learned that utilizing hCG during a steroid cycle will significantly prevent testicular degeneration. This helps create a seamless transition from “on cycle” to “off cycle” thus avoiding the post cycle crash.



References -

1. Glycoprotein hormones: structure and function.
Pierce JG, Parsons TF 1981
Annu Rev Biochem 50:466–495

2. Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression
Andrea D. Coviello, et al
J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., May 2005; 90: 2595 - 2602.

3. Luteinizing hormone on Leydig cell structure and function.
Mendis-Handagama SM
Histol Histopathol 12:869–882 (1997)

4. Leydig cell peroxisomes and sterol carrier protein-2 in luteinizing hormone-deprived rats
SM Mendis-Handagama, et al.
Endocrinology, Dec 1992; 131: 2839.

5. Effect of long term deprivation of luteinizing hormone on Leydig cell volume, Leydig cell number, and steroidogenic capacity of the rat testis.
Keeney DS, et al.
Endocrinology 1988; 123:2906–2915.

 

[tical]

This is how I would approach the cycle

Cycle:

Week 0: get labwork (LH/FSH/Testosterone)
Week 1: Test C 500mg & dbol 25mg ED & Arimidex .5mg EOD or E3D
Week 2: Test C 500mg & dbol 25mg ED & Arimidex .5mg EOD or E3D & HCG 300iu 2x week
Week 3: Test C 500mg & dbol 25mg ED & Arimidex .5mg EOD or E3D & HCG 300iu 2x week
Week 4: Test C 500mg & dbol 25mg ED & Arimidex .5mg EOD or E3D & HCG 300iu 2x week
Week 5: Test C 500mg & Arimidex .5mg EOD or E3D & HCG 300iu 2x week
Week 6: Test C 500mg & Arimidex .5mg EOD or E3D & HCG 300iu 2x week
Week 7: Test C 500mg & Arimidex .5mg EOD or E3D & HCG 300iu 2x week
Week 8: Test C 500mg & Arimidex .5mg EOD or E3D & HCG 300iu 2x week
Week 9: Test C 500mg & Arimidex .5mg EOD or E3D & HCG 300iu 2x week
Week 10: Test C 500mg & Arimidex .5mg EOD or E3D & HCG 300iu 2x week
Week 11: Test C 500mg & Arimidex .5mg EOD or E3D & HCG 300iu 2x week
Week 12: Test C 500mg & Arimidex .5mg EOD or E3D & HCG 300iu 2x week
Week 13: Arimidex .5mg EOD or E3D & HCG 300iu 2x week
Week 14: clomd 25mg to 50mg
Week 15: clomd 25mg to 50mg
Week 16: clomd 25mg to 50mg
Week 17: clomd 25mg to 50mg * would be useful to get (LH/FSH/Testosterone) labs at this point to see how you're responding to the clomid and adjust the dose accordingly
Week 18: clomd 25mg to 50mg
Week 19: clomd 25mg to 50mg
Week 20: taper down clomid, ie 25 for 3 days, 12.5 for 4 days
Week 21: taper down clomid, ie 12.5 for 3 days, 6.25 for 4 days
Week 22: clean
Week 23: clean
Week 24: clean
Week 25: clean
Week 26: clean - get labwork (LH/FSH/Testosterone)

Top mens health physicians prefer the aromatose competitor arimidex versus the suicide inhibitor aromasin. arimidex lowers estrogen by preventing the conversion of testosterone to estrogen by temporarily binding to the 5ar enzyme. Aromasin binds permanently to this enzyme and effectively kills it.

While this may sound great, estrogen is actually a necessary hormone and you have greater control with Arimidex. Using aromasin you're killing the enzyme responsible for this conversion and the return of this enzyme can take quite a while depending on your body. Overdo it with Aromasin and you could be in a hole for a while.

Clomid acts on more receptors throughout the body whereas Nolvadex acts primarily on breast tissue receptors. Some hate clomid, others hate nolvadex.

Side effects can be avoided with either if you dose appropriately according to your needs.

A lot of people shotgun PCT and take 100mg of Clomid and hate it because they feel like whiny girls. What you should do, since this is your first cycle, is start at a low dose of clomid for 4-5 weeks, get labwork and see where your test levels are at. If they are a little low, increase the dose and test again after 4 weeks. Once you find your sweet spot, you'll know exactly how much you need for the future.

Good luck with your cycle

 

[somaddict]

Awesome responses! I'm very happy to see so much good data on hcg. I will definitely take it on cycle. The mixing looks a little daunting but I came across some good demonstrations and info on spotinjections. Since I am so skinny (even when I was around 200 lbs.), I'm assuming glute injections will be good for the test and hcg. I've read scar tissue can be a concern but I'm not sure if it's a worry in my first cycle.

tical: I notice in osubeavers' post the article it mentions that hcg should be stopped around the same time as the last AAS shot, if I understand correctly. Do you have a theory for why it would be taken over the following week as well? Also, I have seen multiple references that PCT should be started 2 weeks after the last test c shot, and I noticed you edited my rough cycle to start PCT immediately. Is this simply to judge the effectiveness of clomid for my first cycle and for the bloodwork (thanks for reminding me to do that, btw), and if so should a routine/second cycle with perhaps deca stacked on follow the common suggestion of 2-3 clean weeks post cycle? I think I read deca requires 3.

Anyway, thanks for the info on Arimidex. I had a hard time discerning between it and Aromasin. It's clear that if the body naturally produces estrogen then it probably should not be "killed." Also, how does one decide if Arimidex should be adjusted to EOD or E3D?

 

[tical]

Awesome responses! I'm very happy to see so much good data on hcg. I will definitely take it on cycle. The mixing looks a little daunting but I came across some good demonstrations and info on spotinjections. Since I am so skinny (even when I was around 200 lbs.), I'm assuming glute injections will be good for the test and hcg. I've read scar tissue can be a concern but I'm not sure if it's a worry in my first cycle.

tical: I notice in osubeavers' post the article it mentions that hcg should be stopped around the same time as the last AAS shot, if I understand correctly. Do you have a theory for why it would be taken over the following week as well? Also, I have seen multiple references that PCT should be started 2 weeks after the last test c shot, and I noticed you edited my rough cycle to start PCT immediately. Is this simply to judge the effectiveness of clomid for my first cycle and for the bloodwork (thanks for reminding me to do that, btw), and if so should a routine/second cycle with perhaps deca stacked on follow the common suggestion of 2-3 clean weeks post cycle? I think I read deca requires 3.

Anyway, thanks for the info on Arimidex. I had a hard time discerning between it and Aromasin. It's clear that if the body naturally produces estrogen then it probably should not be "killed." Also, how does one decide if Arimidex should be adjusted to EOD or E3D?

HCG should be injected subcutaneously (in fat). An easy painless spot is the abdominal fat right by the belly botton, about 2 inches to either side. Just pinch the skin and stick it in. HCG has the consistency of water, so you can inject it with a very small syringe (like an insulin syringe) and barely feel a thing.

The reason I feel HCG should be taken the week after your last shot is because you will likely have a suppressive amount of testosterone still in your body (the cypionate ester has something like a 14 day half life).

The references you've read about starting PCT 2 weeks after your last cyp shot is basically due to the same reason I suggest taking HCG for a week after - because the cyp is still in your body.

I personally don't think it's necessary to wait for all of the exogenous testosterone to clear your body before you start administering a serm like clomid. If anything, it will allow for a more seamless transition into PCT.

I definitely suggest starting with a low dose, like 25mg and getting labs 4 to 5 weeks after and adjust accordingly if needed. There is no need to slam huge amounts of clomid and feel like shit.

Also, as for dosing the arimidex. Ideally you'd would want to do this based on labwork as well, but that would be costly, so you should do it based on how you feel. If you're feeling sides of high estrogen, like nipple soreness or itchiness, then that would be a sign to increase the amount of arimidex you take.

Do your best to take the arimidex on the days you take your cyp shots because this is when estrogen will spike.

 

[cgar1228]

Awesome responses! I'm very happy to see so much good data on hcg. I will definitely take it on cycle. The mixing looks a little daunting but I came across some good demonstrations and info on spotinjections. Since I am so skinny (even when I was around 200 lbs.), I'm assuming glute injections will be good for the test and hcg. I've read scar tissue can be a concern but I'm not sure if it's a worry in my first cycle.

tical: I notice in osubeavers' post the article it mentions that hcg should be stopped around the same time as the last AAS shot, if I understand correctly. Do you have a theory for why it would be taken over the following week as well? Also, I have seen multiple references that PCT should be started 2 weeks after the last test c shot, and I noticed you edited my rough cycle to start PCT immediately. Is this simply to judge the effectiveness of clomid for my first cycle and for the bloodwork (thanks for reminding me to do that, btw), and if so should a routine/second cycle with perhaps deca stacked on follow the common suggestion of 2-3 clean weeks post cycle? I think I read deca requires 3.

Anyway, thanks for the info on Arimidex. I had a hard time discerning between it and Aromasin. It's clear that if the body naturally produces estrogen then it probably should not be "killed." Also, how does one decide if Arimidex should be adjusted to EOD or E3D?

The reason for taking HCG the week after your last Test injection is that the Test is still in your system for at least 10 days after you last injection. If the synthetic Test is still in your system then your body is still relying on the synthetic stuff and not producing it yet so you are not officially in recovery mode yet. Once the synthetic Test is out of your system then you can think about dropping the HCG, hence extending the HCG 1 wk after the cycle. I would wait 1.5 weeks after your last injection so your body can respond to the serm you are giving it and start producing it's own Testosterone again. Tical is very knowledgeable about this so please take his advice seriously.

It sounds like you are listening really well and taking everything in so good job in that regard. Once you add about 30 lbs naturally you will be ready to start your cycle. Good luck training bro, it will take you a while to gain that weight but it's a must b/c if you don't know how to train and eat properly you will loose everything and more you gained during the cycle.

 

[BSchmidt350z]

excellent advice