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I'm giving the "Pre-Work Out Carbs" idea a test drive

pintoca

New member
because you need to try different things to see what works best for you right?

So I'm not changing anything in my diet (calorie or ratio-wise), I will just swap my 7:00 pm meal with my 7:00 am meal, which means:

1. I will be having a chicken breast breakfast (DAYUM)
2. All my daily carbs will be around my workout: Around 50grs (from oats and 0,3% milk) 1 hour before lifting and some 50 grs (dex+malto) after lifting.
3. no more carb tapering for me

The idea is to see whether this has a direct, measureable impact on my strennght... if it does, it is a keeper... otherwise, I won't be having chicken breakfast for long.

Will keep you posted on my findings. (will start tomorrow, since today is cardio-only day)
 
StellarTiggy said:
I had chicken for brekkie today too, Fatty..along with wheat bran/protein powder pancakes...hehe I wasn't doing it for the protein. I wanted chicken ;)

I still have a mental issue with chicken that early in the morning... we are not talking deli meat, but the real chicken breast in a grill... willpower, don't fail me or I will be hurling half-digested chicken all over the place...
 
Steaks, eggs, poultry, fish, whey and any other lean protein is not out of the question for breakfast for me.

That being said, do not exclude your pre-workout nutrition. It may be just as important, if not more, then post-workout. Here are some quotes referring to PWO nutrition as well as pre.

Title: Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise

Quote(s):"In the present study, the effectiveness of the drink appeared to be greater when it was consumed immediately before exercise (PRE) compared with immediately after exercise (POST)....Effectiveness of the timing of EAC ingestion is supported by comparing the amount of phenylalanine taken up by the leg to the amount ingested in each trial. During PRE, ~21% of ingested phenylalanine was taken up by the leg, thus ~42% by both legs. The proportion was much lower during POST, ~8% across one leg or 16% for both legs....We have previously demonstrated that muscle protein synthesis is stimulated by essential amino acids alone (27, 28). Even single essential amino acids in a flooding dose may stimulate muscle protein synthesis (24). It is more difficult to assign a role to insulin in the change from net negative protein balance to positive protein balance. After exercise, insulin seems to be necessary for protein synthesis to occur (11, 12, 14), yet increased insulin does not stimulate muscle protein synthesis (7)....The ingestion of a relatively small amount of essential amino acids, combined with carbohydrates, is an effective stimulator of net muscle protein synthesis. The stimulation of net muscle protein synthesis when EAC is consumed before exercise is superior to that when EAC is consumed after exercise. The combination of increased amino acid levels at a time when blood flow is increased appears to offer the maximum stimulation of muscle protein synthesis by increasing amino acid delivery to the muscle and thus amino acid availability."

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/281/2/E197

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=272067

Regulation of GLUT4 protein and glycogen synthase during muscle glycogen synthesis after exercise.

Ivy JL, Kuo CH.

Department of Kinesiology, The University of Texas at Austin, 78712, USA.

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following its depletion by exercise is biphasic. Initially, there is a rapid, insulin independent increase in the muscle glycogen stores. This is then followed by a slower insulin dependent rate of synthesis. Contributing to the rapid phase of glycogen synthesis is an increase in muscle cell membrane permeability to glucose, which serves to increase the intracellular concentration of glucose-6-phosphate (G6P) and activate glycogen synthase. Stimulation of glucose transport by muscle contraction as well as insulin is largely mediated by translocation of the glucose transporter isoform GLUT4 from intracellular sites to the plasma membrane. Thus, the increase in membrane permeability to glucose following exercise most likely reflects an increase in GLUT4 protein associated with the plasma membrane. This insulin-like effect on muscle glucose transport induced by muscle contraction, however, reverses rapidly after exercise is stopped. As this direct effect on transport is lost, it is replaced by a marked increase in the sensitivity of muscle glucose transport and glycogen synthesis to insulin. Thus, the second phase of glycogen synthesis appears to be related to an increased muscle insulin sensitivity. Although the cellular modifications responsible for the increase in insulin sensitivity are unknown, it apparently helps maintain an increased number of GLUT4 transporters associated with the plasma membrane once the contraction-stimulated effect on translocation has reversed. It is also possible that an increase in GLUT4 protein expression plays a role during the insulin dependent phase.

Publication Types:
Review
Review, Tutorial

PMID: 9578375 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Dietary strategies to promote glycogen synthesis after exercise.

Ivy JL.

Exercise Physiology and Metabolism Laboratory, Department of Kinesiology and Health Education, The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, TX, USA.

Muscle glycogen is an essential fuel for prolonged intense exercise, and therefore it is important that the glycogen stores be copious for competition and strenuous training regimens. While early research focused on means of increasing the muscle glycogen stores in preparation for competition and its day-to-day replenishment, recent research has focused on the most effective means of promoting its replenishment during the early hours of recovery. It has been observed that muscle glycogen synthesis is twice as rapid if carbohydrate is consumed immediately after exercise as opposed to waiting several hours, and that a rapid rate of synthesis can be maintained if carbohydrate is consumed on a regular basis. For example, supplementing at 30-min intervals at a rate of 1.2 to 1.5 g CHO x kg(-1) body wt x h(-1) appears to maximize synthesis for a period of 4- to 5-h post exercise. If a lighter carbohydrate supplement is desired, however, glycogen synthesis can be enhanced with the addition of protein and certain amino acids. Furthermore, the combination of carbohydrate and protein has the added benefit of stimulating amino acid transport, protein synthesis and muscle tissue repair. Research suggests that aerobic performance following recovery is related to the degree of muscle glycogen replenishment.

Publication Types:
Review
Review, Tutorial

PMID: 11897899 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Scientists Close In On Trigger Of Insulin Resistance

Extra sugar can cause insulin resistance in cells. Now scientists have an explanation.

In experiments with fat cells, Johns Hopkins scientists have discovered direct evidence that a build-up of sugar on proteins triggers insulin resistance, a key feature of most cases of diabetes.
The results underscore the importance of glycosylation - attachment of a sugar to a protein -- as a way cells control proteins' activities, the scientists report in the April 16 issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. The scientists found that at least two proteins involved in passing along insulin's message were unlikely to work properly when coated in extra sugar.

Type 2 diabetes, the most common form in adults, occurs when muscle, fat and other tissues stop responding to insulin's signals to mop up sugar from the blood. The resulting high blood sugar, if uncontrolled, can lead to blindness, amputation and death. Understanding sugar's precise influence on insulin's activity may help improve treatment and prevention, scientists hope.

"Cells don't respond to insulin itself. Instead, a whole cascade of events, set in motion by insulin, eventually causes cells to take in sugar," explains Gerald Hart, Ph.D., professor and director of biological chemistry in the school's Institute for Basic Biomedical Sciences. "We now have an explanation of how sugar can affect these signals, and even a hypothesis for how high blood sugar could cause tissue damage in diabetes -- by improperly modifying proteins."

Hart's lab discovered 18 years ago that sugar is used routinely inside cells to modify proteins, turning them on and off. The more commonly known protein-controller, phosphate, actually binds to some of the same building blocks of proteins as sugar does. If proteins have too many sugars on them, they can't be controlled properly by the cell and are unlikely to work correctly, suggests Hart.

"We think we've come across a major mechanistic reason for insulin resistance," says Hart. "These cells developed insulin resistance simply because their proteins, and specific proteins in fact, had more than the normal number of sugar tags."

If key proteins laden with sugar are present in patients with diabetes, the findings may provide a target for developing new strategies to deal with this growing public health threat, says Hart. While diabetes can be fairly well controlled by diet and carefully monitoring one's blood sugar levels, finding a way to remove extra sugar tags may help treat or prevent diabetes someday, the researchers suggest.

"Textbooks frequently and incorrectly show glycosylation only happening to proteins on the cell surface," says Hart. "Complex sugars are added only to proteins outside the cell, but simple sugars are used all the time in the nucleus and cytoplasm to modify proteins. It's this glycosylation that happens inside the cell, involving simple sugars, that is the key in insulin resistance."

The "simple sugar" to which he refers is O-linked beta-N-acetylglucosamine, a complex name that condenses to a difficult acronym -- O-GlcNAc -- with an ugly pronunciation -- "oh-gluck-nack." But in many ways, O-GlcNAc is a beautiful and mysterious thing, says Hart.

"O-GlcNAc is a modifier on many proteins, but if you didn't know to look for it, you'd never find it," he says. "Instruments and the usual laboratory methods have a hard time measuring it, so we developed the techniques to detect it."

O-GlcNAc is added to proteins by one enzyme and removed from proteins by another. By selectively blocking that removal, the scientists hoped to load up proteins with sugar without adding extra sugar (the way other scientists have created insulin resistance). "We wanted to see the effect of glycosylation itself, so we used a molecular sledgehammer to increase the amount of sugar bound to proteins," says Hart, whose lab proved the ability of the blocker, a molecule called PUGNAc.

Not only did the blocker increase the amount of O-GlcNAc bound to proteins, but that increase caused the cells to stop responding to insulin, say co-first authors and postdoctoral fellows Lance Wells and Keith Vosseller.

Looking for proteins in the insulin-signaling pathway that were more glycosylated than normal, Vosseller and Wells found two: beta-catenin and insulin receptor substrate-1 (IRS-1). The crucial role these proteins play in passing along insulin's messages is likely to be adversely affected by the extra sugars they carry, the researchers say.

"Our experiments show that increasing O-GlcNAc on proteins is, by itself, a cause of insulin resistance, rather than an effect or a coincidence," says Vosseller.

In the body, sugar (glucose) is changed into glucosamine, which is changed into O-GlcNAc. Other scientists have shown that giving cells or animals excessive amounts of sugar or glucosamine, along with extra insulin, leads to insulin resistance. The new findings provide an explanation for others' experience with animal and laboratory models of insulin resistance.

There has been little study of glucosamine, a commonly used dietary supplement, in people. It is suggested that people taking glucosamine consult their doctors if they are concerned about the possibility of increasing their risk of developing diabetes.

Funding was provided by grants and National Research Service Awards from the National Institutes of Health. Professor of biological chemistry Daniel Lane, Ph.D., is also an author.

Under a licensing agreement between Covance Research Products and The Johns Hopkins University, Hart is entitled to a share of royalty received by the university on sales of the antibody used to detect O-GlcNAc on proteins. The terms of this arrangement are being managed by The Johns Hopkins University in accordance with its conflict of interest policies.


Physiological hyperinsulinemia stimulates p70(S6k) phosphorylation in human skeletal muscle.

Hillier T, Long W, Jahn L, Wei L, Barrett EJ.

Department of Internal Medicine, Division of Endocrinology, University of Virginia School of Medicine, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908, USA.

Using tracer methods, insulin stimulates muscle protein synthesis in vitro, an effect not seen in vivo with physiological insulin concentrations in adult animals or humans. To examine the action of physiological hyperinsulinemia on protein synthesis using a tracer-independent method in vivo and identify possible explanations for this discrepancy, we measured the phosphorylation of ribosomal protein S6 kinase (P70(S6k)) and eIF4E-binding protein (eIF4E-BP1), two key proteins that regulate messenger ribonucleic acid translation and protein synthesis. Postabsorptive healthy adults received either a 2-h insulin infusion (1 mU/min.kg; euglycemic insulin clamp; n = 6) or a 2-h saline infusion (n = 5). Vastus lateralis muscle was biopsied at baseline and at the end of the infusion period. Phosphorylation of P70(S6k) and eIF4E-BP1 was quantified on Western blots after SDS-PAGE. Physiological increments in plasma insulin (42 +/- 13 to 366 +/- 36 pmol/L; P: = 0.0002) significantly increased p70(S6k) (P: < 0.01), but did not affect eIF4E-BP1 phosphorylation in muscle. Plasma insulin declined slightly during saline infusion (P: = 0.04), and there was no change in the phosphorylation of either p70(S6k) or eIF4E-BP1. These findings indicate an important role of physiological hyperinsulinemia in the regulation of p70(S6k) in human muscle. This finding is consistent with a potential role for insulin in regulating the synthesis of that subset of proteins involved in ribosomal function. The failure to enhance the phosphorylation of eIF4E-BP1 may in part explain the lack of a stimulatory effect of physiological hyperinsulinemia on bulk protein synthesis in skeletal muscle in vivo.

:supercool
 
Interesting, so from the first quote, it seems to be a good idea to add some whey to the oats/milk?

They mention a "small quantity of protein", so maybe the amount from the milk alone (12grs Prot) would be enough... guess I can bump that to some 25 grs with a couple tbsps of whey...

BTW, I have to spread
 
StellarTiggy said:
are you using carb countdown? that shit contains maltodextrin, I hope you're taking it with your PWO and not your oats. It'll raise your insulin higher than the raisins youre dying to make your oatmeal with :p

what is carb countdown??? I figure is gotta be some fancy milk you guys enjoy and we can only dream about... :worried:

nehhh, is plain ole low fat milk (0,3%, almost like water)
 
piontoca is in Alemania, they don't have HOOD out there. Carb countdown is a new Atkin's devised milk product where they cut the carbs like 80% and increase the protein 50%.
 
sawastea said:
piontoca is in Alemania, they don't have HOOD out there. Carb countdown is a new Atkin's devised milk product where they cut the carbs like 80% and increase the protein 50%.

Fancy milk it is... I was right... Did you know I cannot even find Splenda here? to the point I believe there might be an European ban on it (we go grocery shopping to France every 2 weeks or so, and none there either... didn't see any in Italy, Spain, Belgium or the NL either...)

Maybe I'm looking in all the wrong places, but I would think major supermarkets would carry stuff like that...
 
pintoca said:
(we go grocery shopping to France every 2 weeks or so, and none there either... didn't see any in Italy, Spain, Belgium or the NL either...)
pintoca.. international man of mystery
 
bran987 said:
pintoca.. international man of mystery

lol, think of it when you have to go to the state next to yours because of work... around here that distance might cover 2-3 countries...

Germany is in the middle of it all bro. From my house, driving times (not even pushing it like the Germans do):

Brussels: 3 Hours
Amsterdam: 4 hours
Switzerland: 2.5 hours (Ski paradise)
Austria: 4 hours (comes in handy once the ski season arrives!!!)
France: 1 hour
Italy: 4 hours
Luxembourg: 2 hours
Spain: 10 hours (damn is that place far away, but the food is worth it)
CZ Republic: 6 hours
Copenhagen: 8 hours (because of the ferry boat)

think about the times... if you are in a big state, chances are you will be still within the same state if you drive 5 hours around :-)
 
think about the times... if you are in a big state, chances are you will be still within the same state if you drive 5 hours around :-)

your damn right pintoca, I live in the southern part of Texas and in about 10 hours driving north, I would barely reach the northern part of the state(Dallas).
 
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