Wison6.........help mah!!!

[The Shadow]

followed a LOW carb diet(<50) with a refeed day every 8-10 days.....doen to sub 8% with some water coming off from the dnp...still using yohinburn 2x daily.......I have a major audition coming up.....


...what are you thoughts on a gradual carb-up instead of "loading"...... after filling up and loading creatine - I should be around 205 at 6.5-7%.


Thank you in advance

 

[wilson6]

Don't see why that wouldn't work as long as you're not using muscle glycogen at the same rate you're putting it back in. Unlike the liver stores once you get the muscle glycogen up, if you don't use it via muscle contraction, it will stay elevated, thus you'll stay full.

Having said that, with a slow carb up insulin levels will be lower which may be a plus for less water retention, but that might limit total muscle glycogen accumulation.

I suppose it would depend on how you define slow carb up and how you respond to a carb load in general.

During your refeeds, did you take on considerable sub-q water? If not, then a more rapid loading might increase total supercompensation. For endurance athletes, it takes about a 70% carb diet for a couple of days to do the job. If you cut your sodium back 36 hours out from the audition, keep water coming in and are mostly carbed up by then, you should nail it.

MS, what are your thoughts here.

W6

 

[MS]

Yeah, it depends. I assume you've done this before so know how you'll respond to the slow versus fast carbs??? And I KNOW you're a fan of ALA, so I won't insult you by suggesting you use it liberally during the carbs.

Wilson6, regarding the 3 days required for endurance athletes to fully compensate, I assume a LOT of that is liver glycogen?? If a BB is using mainly glucose based carbs, do you think they could accelerate this by preferentially filling muscles first?

In any event, some of the best BB physiques I have seen on a stage do not even bother to deplete per se. They just gradualy increase their carbs over the last week and drop the sodium. But I don't personally know anyone who has done this coming off a very low carb diet, and these folks were already very full and muscular anyway (due to a higher carb content in their diet and being show ready several weeks early).

 

[The Shadow]

the last 24 hours I have taken in about 600-700 grams of fast and slow carbs with 4000 mg ala - I look tighter now than I did when I started - less water as well.....have not restricted water over the last 24 either.....I am worried about spilling over form excess carbs....after the carb-up, if it appears that I am spilling over would a little Lasix flush out sub-q without dropping fullness??


Thanks for the replies.

 

[wilson6]

When is the audition?

600 - 700 grams should be just about enough to replete. You could probably cut that back at this point unless you think you need to fill out a little more. Usually 500 grams over 24 hrs repletes a 70 kg pencil neck marathoner that is completely depleted, since you're around 93 kg, you're probably gettting close. Once you're hard and full, cut the carbs back and decrease sodium but only if you're less than 36 hours out, keep the water in. I wouldn't mess with the lasix, don't think you'll need it and it is more likely to make you flat and cramp rather than help.

The term spill over confuses me. Spill over to where? Carbs are stored in the liver and muscle to the largest extent. They can't sit under the skin and pull in water, however continued high conc of blood insulin will increase water retention.

If you're filled out enough by now, then cut back and you should be fine.

MS, It is muscle glycogen that the endurance athletes are interested in filling and they don't deplete either, just increase carbs to 70 - 75% of their diet vs 60 - 65%. Complete depletion isn't necessary to supercompensate. That was the old school thinking prior to the mid-80's.

W6

 

[valerie]

Good Luck Corn at your audition. I bet you'll look great. The ala sure is helpful. I've found the r-ala to be even better, especially in regards to shedding water. It is more spendy than the ala.

Question for the folks in the know-

Does posing in the last week before competing (last final days as well) "use up glycogen" stored in the muscles? Thanks-Valerie

 

[The Shadow]

When is the audition?

600 - 700 grams should be just about enough to replete. You could probably cut that back at this point unless you think you need to fill out a little more. Usually 500 grams over 24 hrs repletes a 70 kg pencil neck marathoner that is completely depleted, since you're around 93 kg, you're probably gettting close. Once you're hard and full, cut the carbs back and decrease sodium but only if you're less than 36 hours out, keep the water in. I wouldn't mess with the lasix, don't think you'll need it and it is more likely to make you flat and cramp rather than help.

The term spill over confuses me. Spill over to where? Carbs are stored in the liver and muscle to the largest extent. They can't sit under the skin and pull in water, however continued high conc of blood insulin will increase water retention.

If you're filled out enough by now, then cut back and you should be fine.

MS, It is muscle glycogen that the endurance athletes are interested in filling and they don't deplete either, just increase carbs to 70 - 75% of their diet vs 60 - 65%. Complete depletion isn't necessary to supercompensate. That was the old school thinking prior to the mid-80's.

W6

lol

Spill over = water retention.....bbing talk

Aud on Nov 4th


Thanks again

 

[wilson6]

"Does posing in the last week before competing (last final days as well) "use up glycogen" stored in the muscles? Thanks-Valerie"

Probably not very much. Even a heavy leg workout only uses about 35 - 40%.

W6

 

[The Shadow]

usualy glycogen storage is 500 grams or so right?

 

[wilson6]

Average liver glycogen storage is about 100 grams/kg liver weight in the fed state, total usually around 100 - 120 grams fed.

Average muscle glycogen storage is about 15 grams/kg muscle wet weight. Perhaps more in the supercompensated state. Thus, a total carb up is going to depend on the total muscle mass involved. A bodybuilder, if completely depleted is going to need more total grams of carb intake than a runner that is depleted to supercompensate.

The term spillover should be replaced with water retention because there really is no true spillover of carbs per se, just the effects of insulin and Na retention.

BBs have to remember that to completely depete takes some work. A runner could deplete on a moderate carb diet with a 2 hr run followed by a performance bout to exhaustion. A bodybuilder even with an all out leg routine will only deplete partially because blood glucose is elevated from liver stores and high circulating lactate levels convert back to glucose so there is partial compensation even without eating.

In an endurance athlete during a prolonged run, liver stores are depleted and lactate is not nearly as high as during high intensity or interval work. Thus, there is no substate remaining to partially restore muscle glycogen. For a bodybuilder, it would take repeated bouts of whole body exercise and a lower carb diet for 3 days or so to get the same effect if all muscle groups were to be depleted for the purpose of supercompensating. Having said that, just a prolonged low carb precontest diet, or several days of reduced carbs with normal training followed by a high mixed carb refeed period of 36 - 48 hrs should do it.

Everyone is different and it takes some experimentation. Once you find what works for you, then stay with it. Also remember that adding in just one drug (AAS, ECA, CLEN, thyroid, DNP, GH, insulin, IGF-I, blah, blah, blah) can change everything as will altering sodium/water intake or electrolytes.

W6