Excess Protein - Useless or not? Which is it!?

[Tom Treutlein]

Alright, we've got so many people saying how more than 1g per pound is good, yet science and many studies show us that 0.8-1.0g per pound is all one needs, and the rest really isn't utilized.

Actually, most guys take in too much protein. It isn't that too much protein will hurt them - assuming they are healthy to begin with - but too much protein can actually inhibit gains. I know, it sounds totally contradictory to what you read everywhere, but it is true. Let me explain.

The ability of the body to grow is effected by the ratio of protein to carbs. It is an inverted U shaped curve - or bell curve - where the top or highest point of the curve is a ratio of 12-15% protein to carbs (diet consisting of ~15% protein). At one peak you have all carbs, at the other you have all protein. It has to do with thermogenesis and hormones.

So, if a skinny guy wants to gain weight, he needs to plan a diet where he gets 15% of his calories from protein.
Now this may seem contradictory to the general rule of 1 gram per pound bodyweight. I'm not saying that a guy can't gain weight with more than 15% calories from protein, I'm only saying that weight gain is greatest at 15%. He will be ok with an intake of 0.75 grams/pound FFM to gain muscle. In fact, everybody should use FFM instead of bodyweight to plan protein intake, but sometimes it's just too hard to figure it out, so most people use bodyweight.

For a guy who isn't all that skinny, or even a little fat, he should increase his protien intake to 20-25%. This will increase thermogenesis and prevent some fat gain as calories increase above maintenance.

That is taken from an FAQ on the HST website.

Okay, so, which is it? This is like the Carb+Fat yea or nay dilemma...
There are things supporting both sides. Tons of protein (DC and his trainees) and studies showing lowered levels of protein...

 

[ProtienFiend]

It could be either... depending on body type, insulin resistence, and such... there really isnt a simple answer for this. your best bet is to test it out and see what works for you.

 

[ohashi]

The ability of the body to grow is effected by the ratio of protein to carbs. It is an inverted U shaped curve - or bell curve - where the top or highest point of the curve is a ratio of 12-15% protein to carbs (diet consisting of ~15% protein). At one peak you have all carbs, at the other you have all protein. It has to do with thermogenesis and hormones.

I wonder whose ass this was pulled out of?

 

[Tom Treutlein]

What does insulin resistance have to do with how you uptake protein? And body type? That shouldn't have anything to do with how much protein you need - maybe overall calories. Not saying you're wrong, just want some sort of clarity on it.

Ohashi - then where are your studies or sources stating that excess protein is useful? And by excess I mean beyond 1g per pound.

 

[ohashi]

Insulin is responsible for glucose/amino acid uptake into your cells. Insulin resistance = poor protein uptake.

Where are your studies stating that excess protein is not useful? A quote from a shittty site with no worthwhile references is not exactly a good source. Besides, can you prove that going beyond 1g per pound of bodyweight is excess for a hard-training weigh-lifter? No?

 

[juve]

Insulin is responsible for glucose/amino acid uptake into your cells. Insulin resistance = poor protein uptake.

Where are your studies stating that excess protein is not useful? A quote from a shittty site with no worthwhile references is not exactly a good source. Besides, can you prove that going beyond 1g per pound of bodyweight is excess for a hard-training weigh-lifter? No?

Amino acids require nominal amount of insulin for transport, many of them can be converted to glucose anyway. Carbs do not require necessarily insulin for transport; there are a few other underlying enzymatic pathways which allocate glucose - there are plenty of studies on genetically altered mice who do not secrete insulin yet exhibit preferential (to a degree) glucose distribution.

Excess protrein is converted to glucose; over all excess nutrients are stored in adipocytes....as fat.

Muscle building requires adequate amount of nutrients depending on an individual; generalizing a number over a population has little external validity or even plain consistensy.

 

[gregory]

Excess protrein is converted to glucose; over all excess nutrients are stored in adipocytes....as fat.

Muscle building requires adequate amount of nutrients depending on an individual; generalizing a number over a population has little external validity or even plain consistensy.

Ahh yes BUT it's great at upping sales of powders made by supplement companies. This is the kind of brainwashing done to us all. I personally witnessed protein recommendations skyrocket in past years.

It started with .8 gram per kilo.

Then went to .8 gram per lb.

Then got rounded up to 1 gram per lb.

Then supposed studies came out showing the extreme benefits of high protein intake, the sales drive supplement industry then decided to bend the truth even more and said 1.5 grams per lb of our new super predigested, peptide enriched time released powder is to be used for OPTIMAL GAINS. Don't cheat yourself, listen to us and do it. Now the're up to recommending 2 grams per lb.

Look guys, what's happening here is recommendations made are this high for a reason. First it makes it too difficult to get it from food, so you're left thinking that supplements are necessary, second it ups sales through the roof. Now a good protein powder is a good idea but let's not get ridiculous witht the protein dosages. In the end it's a ammount of calories you take in that will make all the difference.

 

[ohashi]

Amount of insulin required for amino transport into cell may be nominal, but it is there - which is why protein consumption elicits an insulin response (by the way, do you know exactly how much insulin is required for the transport?).

Excess protein is only converted to glucose if glycogen is needed, otherwise there is no need to undergo the metabolically-expensive (and useless, if glycogen stores are adequate) process. Since glycogen stores are almost never completely full in an athlete who watches what he/she eats, some of the excess protein consumed does get converted, but most of it gets excereted through the urine (since protein has no long-term storage system in the body, unlike carbs and fat do).

It's very true about supplement companies blowing the requirements out of proportion to sell more whey, though. All hail the allmighty dollar.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Well, you say that since glycogen stores are normally never optimal in athletes, protein must get converted to glucose, therefore requiring extra protein to makeup for that which was lost...

But, what if one's intaking higher amounts of carbs to replenish the glycogen, and eating nominal amounts of protein (i.e., 15-20% total cals) as was recommended from the HST website (the source I quoted above)? Wouldn't that defeat the need of excess protein, since none would be "wasted" on the "metabolically-expensive" process of converting it to glucose?

Did I make any sense?

 

[ohashi]

I said that glycogen stores are normally not full, not "optimal".

The problem with your line of thinking is that you don't know whether 15-20% is enough protein to fully support maximum growth - it may be, or it may not be. Most prefer to err on the side of some excess, and there is nothing wrong with that.