Excess Protein - Useless or not? Which is it!?

[Tom Treutlein]

Alright, we've got so many people saying how more than 1g per pound is good, yet science and many studies show us that 0.8-1.0g per pound is all one needs, and the rest really isn't utilized.

Actually, most guys take in too much protein. It isn't that too much protein will hurt them - assuming they are healthy to begin with - but too much protein can actually inhibit gains. I know, it sounds totally contradictory to what you read everywhere, but it is true. Let me explain.

The ability of the body to grow is effected by the ratio of protein to carbs. It is an inverted U shaped curve - or bell curve - where the top or highest point of the curve is a ratio of 12-15% protein to carbs (diet consisting of ~15% protein). At one peak you have all carbs, at the other you have all protein. It has to do with thermogenesis and hormones.

So, if a skinny guy wants to gain weight, he needs to plan a diet where he gets 15% of his calories from protein.
Now this may seem contradictory to the general rule of 1 gram per pound bodyweight. I'm not saying that a guy can't gain weight with more than 15% calories from protein, I'm only saying that weight gain is greatest at 15%. He will be ok with an intake of 0.75 grams/pound FFM to gain muscle. In fact, everybody should use FFM instead of bodyweight to plan protein intake, but sometimes it's just too hard to figure it out, so most people use bodyweight.

For a guy who isn't all that skinny, or even a little fat, he should increase his protien intake to 20-25%. This will increase thermogenesis and prevent some fat gain as calories increase above maintenance.

That is taken from an FAQ on the HST website.

Okay, so, which is it? This is like the Carb+Fat yea or nay dilemma...
There are things supporting both sides. Tons of protein (DC and his trainees) and studies showing lowered levels of protein...

 

[ProtienFiend]

It could be either... depending on body type, insulin resistence, and such... there really isnt a simple answer for this. your best bet is to test it out and see what works for you.

 

[ohashi]

The ability of the body to grow is effected by the ratio of protein to carbs. It is an inverted U shaped curve - or bell curve - where the top or highest point of the curve is a ratio of 12-15% protein to carbs (diet consisting of ~15% protein). At one peak you have all carbs, at the other you have all protein. It has to do with thermogenesis and hormones.

I wonder whose ass this was pulled out of?

 

[Tom Treutlein]

What does insulin resistance have to do with how you uptake protein? And body type? That shouldn't have anything to do with how much protein you need - maybe overall calories. Not saying you're wrong, just want some sort of clarity on it.

Ohashi - then where are your studies or sources stating that excess protein is useful? And by excess I mean beyond 1g per pound.

 

[ohashi]

Insulin is responsible for glucose/amino acid uptake into your cells. Insulin resistance = poor protein uptake.

Where are your studies stating that excess protein is not useful? A quote from a shittty site with no worthwhile references is not exactly a good source. Besides, can you prove that going beyond 1g per pound of bodyweight is excess for a hard-training weigh-lifter? No?

 

[juve]

Insulin is responsible for glucose/amino acid uptake into your cells. Insulin resistance = poor protein uptake.

Where are your studies stating that excess protein is not useful? A quote from a shittty site with no worthwhile references is not exactly a good source. Besides, can you prove that going beyond 1g per pound of bodyweight is excess for a hard-training weigh-lifter? No?

Amino acids require nominal amount of insulin for transport, many of them can be converted to glucose anyway. Carbs do not require necessarily insulin for transport; there are a few other underlying enzymatic pathways which allocate glucose - there are plenty of studies on genetically altered mice who do not secrete insulin yet exhibit preferential (to a degree) glucose distribution.

Excess protrein is converted to glucose; over all excess nutrients are stored in adipocytes....as fat.

Muscle building requires adequate amount of nutrients depending on an individual; generalizing a number over a population has little external validity or even plain consistensy.

 

[gregory]

Excess protrein is converted to glucose; over all excess nutrients are stored in adipocytes....as fat.

Muscle building requires adequate amount of nutrients depending on an individual; generalizing a number over a population has little external validity or even plain consistensy.

Ahh yes BUT it's great at upping sales of powders made by supplement companies. This is the kind of brainwashing done to us all. I personally witnessed protein recommendations skyrocket in past years.

It started with .8 gram per kilo.

Then went to .8 gram per lb.

Then got rounded up to 1 gram per lb.

Then supposed studies came out showing the extreme benefits of high protein intake, the sales drive supplement industry then decided to bend the truth even more and said 1.5 grams per lb of our new super predigested, peptide enriched time released powder is to be used for OPTIMAL GAINS. Don't cheat yourself, listen to us and do it. Now the're up to recommending 2 grams per lb.

Look guys, what's happening here is recommendations made are this high for a reason. First it makes it too difficult to get it from food, so you're left thinking that supplements are necessary, second it ups sales through the roof. Now a good protein powder is a good idea but let's not get ridiculous witht the protein dosages. In the end it's a ammount of calories you take in that will make all the difference.

 

[ohashi]

Amount of insulin required for amino transport into cell may be nominal, but it is there - which is why protein consumption elicits an insulin response (by the way, do you know exactly how much insulin is required for the transport?).

Excess protein is only converted to glucose if glycogen is needed, otherwise there is no need to undergo the metabolically-expensive (and useless, if glycogen stores are adequate) process. Since glycogen stores are almost never completely full in an athlete who watches what he/she eats, some of the excess protein consumed does get converted, but most of it gets excereted through the urine (since protein has no long-term storage system in the body, unlike carbs and fat do).

It's very true about supplement companies blowing the requirements out of proportion to sell more whey, though. All hail the allmighty dollar.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Well, you say that since glycogen stores are normally never optimal in athletes, protein must get converted to glucose, therefore requiring extra protein to makeup for that which was lost...

But, what if one's intaking higher amounts of carbs to replenish the glycogen, and eating nominal amounts of protein (i.e., 15-20% total cals) as was recommended from the HST website (the source I quoted above)? Wouldn't that defeat the need of excess protein, since none would be "wasted" on the "metabolically-expensive" process of converting it to glucose?

Did I make any sense?

 

[ohashi]

I said that glycogen stores are normally not full, not "optimal".

The problem with your line of thinking is that you don't know whether 15-20% is enough protein to fully support maximum growth - it may be, or it may not be. Most prefer to err on the side of some excess, and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Well then let's see is we can come to some agreement...

2g/lb is ludicrous.

Yea or nay?

 

[ohashi]

It's an overkill, as far as I'm concerned. IMO, 1 gram per pound of LBM off-cycle and 1.5 grams per pound of LBM on gear are more than adequate intake values.

 

[poopmonkey]

Someone on animal's board, either DC or IA, recommend 2grams/lb for guys on gear.

I realize you're just trying to find some sort of common ground, so with that in mind, for natural trainers, I think most everyone would agree that the optimal amount is less than 2grams/lb.

For guys on gear? I don't have a clue.

 

[gregory]

Protein requirements should be based on your lean body mass. Taking fat into the account throws everything off.

If i weigh 240 with 20% bf i sould only take in 192 grams following the 1 gram per lb. @ 1.5 grams per lb i would take in 288 grams. This makes a lot more sense.

 

[MrMakaveli]

Alright, we've got so many people saying how more than 1g per pound is good, yet science and many studies show us that 0.8-1.0g per pound is all one needs, and the rest really isn't utilized.

Actually, most guys take in too much protein. It isn't that too much protein will hurt them - assuming they are healthy to begin with - but too much protein can actually inhibit gains. I know, it sounds totally contradictory to what you read everywhere, but it is true. Let me explain.

The ability of the body to grow is effected by the ratio of protein to carbs. It is an inverted U shaped curve - or bell curve - where the top or highest point of the curve is a ratio of 12-15% protein to carbs (diet consisting of ~15% protein). At one peak you have all carbs, at the other you have all protein. It has to do with thermogenesis and hormones.

So, if a skinny guy wants to gain weight, he needs to plan a diet where he gets 15% of his calories from protein.
Now this may seem contradictory to the general rule of 1 gram per pound bodyweight. I'm not saying that a guy can't gain weight with more than 15% calories from protein, I'm only saying that weight gain is greatest at 15%. He will be ok with an intake of 0.75 grams/pound FFM to gain muscle. In fact, everybody should use FFM instead of bodyweight to plan protein intake, but sometimes it's just too hard to figure it out, so most people use bodyweight.

For a guy who isn't all that skinny, or even a little fat, he should increase his protien intake to 20-25%. This will increase thermogenesis and prevent some fat gain as calories increase above maintenance.

That is taken from an FAQ on the HST website.

Okay, so, which is it? This is like the Carb+Fat yea or nay dilemma...
There are things supporting both sides. Tons of protein (DC and his trainees) and studies showing lowered levels of protein...

There is generally no answer. Too much can generally is only going to hurt through thermic effect of food and also chronic over-consumption will increase the enzymes that break down protein causing issues when you lower it back down (I can dig up the study if you want it).

Stick to 1-1.5g depending on carb levels. Unless your on anabolics I cannot see how anymore would be warannted or benificial.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to see that study.

 

[bran987]

good to see we came to a conclusion on this thread

 

[anthrax]

My 2 cents :

A lot of people think that by taking huge amounts of protein they'll get in an anabolic phase
Which is not true if their overall calories intake is insufficient
So they'll take even more protein and claim that 1.5 or 2g/lb of protein is not enough while they should "just" take more calories

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Awesome.

 

[gregory]

My 2 cents :

A lot of people think that by taking huge amounts of protein they'll get in an anabolic phase
Which is not true if their overall calories intake is insufficient
So they'll take even more protein and claim that 1.5 or 2g/lb of protein is not enough while they should "just" take more calories

Exactly! And then you'll hear people saying things like, " i incresed my protein intake by 100 grams and started making gains again". Well no shit, your calorie intake went up by 400 cals. Protein intake is important but not THAT important. You can't force your body to do anything. I have never recovered quicker by taking 400 grams of protein per day vs. 200 grams. The soreness always stayed the same exact ammount of time. No difference. The only time it made a remote difference was on a cycle. Other then that, my protein inteke is about 150-200 grams per day. No more. And i have no problems making gains in the gym.

BTW: I really started thinking about this topic some time back when i observed all the ripped and decently muscular African bush men. Those guys protein intake and overall calorie consumption is very low. They can live for months on end in a deep state of ketosis with minnimal nourishment and still carry a good ammount of muscle. Protein is not the only player here by far. The supplement companies have everyone brainwashed.

 

[JKurz1]

Personally, if I am going to take in excess cals, I want it in the form of Protein, more so than anything else....that's why I aim for 300-400 daily....if there's an overflow, so be it.

 

[gregory]

OK. But you will realise over time that it does not matter in the least bit. While cycling it's a different story. Protein does not itself make you anaboic, it can only support anabolic actions that are trying to take place in the first place. Remeber that your body does not waste a thing and it very minimalistic with it's resources. Force feeding it anything beyond what it wants is just unecessary. But i guessin this so called sport everyone feels like they have to do something "special" and outside the mainstream. Powders seem to make all of us feel better.

Riddle me this though, how come the prison population living on slop and a very average protein intake can get as muscular and ripped as they do? Why? Because by just about all account on EF they should be overtrained, flobby and weak and certainly not making ANY gains.

 

[JKurz1]

You watch too many movies kid.....have you been to a prison? The MAJORITY are not very big at all, unless they came in big. No one goes to prison at 120lbs and comes out 245 at 5%......some use supplements, some use roids, some have nutrition brought in.....protein is the building block for muscles to grow.......skimp on it if you wish............

 

[gregory]

First off i'm not a kid, second i have enough IQ to figure out that not everyone in prison works out and is huge. You know the point i was making and you know it's correct. Same thing with studying African bush men. Sorry to put a dent in your universe. But loading up on very large ammounts of protein is pointless. Even Dorian Yates in very frank interviews mentioned he rarely takes in more then 350 grams, usually around the 300 mark.

 

[JKurz1]

First off i'm not a kid, second i have enough IQ to figure out that not everyone in prison works out and is huge. You know the point i was making and you know it's correct. Same thing with studying African bush men. Sorry to put a dent in your universe. But loading up on very large ammounts of protein is pointless. Even Dorian Yates in very frank interviews mentioned he rarely takes in more then 350 grams, usually around the 300 mark.

Oh relax chief.....Oops, you're not a chief either......I wasn't calling YOU a kid, I was saying it in jest....you're not my brother either, yet I call you bro...go figure....lol.....WHATEVER THE CASE, as I continue to preach more than anything, WHAT WORKS FOR ME, MAY NOT WORK FOR YOU. What works for Dorian, or arnold, or mr.prison dude, or brad pitt, may not work for me. I know a couple of guys that are pretty damn strong and have NO CLUE about how to eat.....fast food x3 is a daily occurance......just use what works.....personally, I look better, feel better, etc when my protein is high!

I need the calories, plain and simple, or else I'll turn into a twig. Like I said, I'd rather take in 300-400g of protein and more fat and carbs......

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Greg...Jkurz is right in one sense, and that is that most people in prison aren't anything special. There are large guys in there, sure, but they don't get that way by just being in jail.

And uhm...IQ? What does having a higher IQ have to do with anything? You sure you're not a kid?

 

[JKurz1]

Tom - I tried not to argue with him over this as I realized he is a newb and sometimes, things get out of hand........I'm positive he's a kid, but that doesn't make a difference...point is, do what works!

 

[gregory]

Greg...Jkurz is right in one sense, and that is that most people in prison aren't anything special. There are large guys in there, sure, but they don't get that way by just being in jail.

And uhm...IQ? What does having a higher IQ have to do with anything? You sure you're not a kid?

Fine he's right in his sense and he does what works for him. The IQ comment was a response to his condesending tone in the post. Calling someone a kid in regards to a topic can easily be taken as condesention. And since this is the internet i can't exactly read someones expression or get a feel for their "tone" as easily. But whatever everyone on the net is an expert.

 

[gregory]

Tom - I tried not to argue with him over this as I realized he is a newb and sometimes, things get out of hand........I'm positive he's a kid, but that doesn't make a difference...point is, do what works!

Nothing got out of hand, and i was not arguing. Your point in all this is do what works, right? My point in this discussion was not to debate whether it works for you or anyone else, but rather WHY it works and how. Without trying to understand why somethig works we may be under false impressions in regards to our diet structure.

Look at it like this. I am 6'2 in height and at my peak while BB weighed 275 lbs. My cycles pretty much consisted of 500mg total AS use for 8-10 week cycles. I started cycling at 21 and 210lbs and ended at 23 at 275. During my cycles i used an approach where i took in more carbs and kept the protein at about 150-200 grams per day. During those times i experimented with protein intake and found that providing the caloric intake was the same it made no difference in my recovery whether i ingested 200 grams of protein or as high as 400 grams. This was when i made some realizations about protein intake. My training partner came to the same conclusion. So we based our intake on LBM, meaning assuming we had 0% BF. Then that number was multiplied by .8 and we came up with about 200-225 grams. And it worked.

PS.

I know for a fact that a diet is hard to setup and even more difficult to follow. It's really a head game. So for a lot of newer (1 year in BB or less)guys including myself this was very daunting task. Simply working out was easier, and when it came to diet i just looked to protein as the "key". Most things came secondary. Over time hovewer i realised that protein was important but not that important. Protein levels exceeding 350 grams left me bloated, sweating all the time (thermogenic) and were just a general pain in the ass to follow. As the saying goes, too much of a good thing is a bad thing.

And damn it, i'm not a kid or a newbie. Been here for years, but my old account got deactivated

 

[Socrates]

First off i'm not a kid, second i have enough IQ to figure out that not everyone in prison works out and is huge. You know the point i was making and you know it's correct. Same thing with studying African bush men. Sorry to put a dent in your universe. But loading up on very large ammounts of protein is pointless. Even Dorian Yates in very frank interviews mentioned he rarely takes in more then 350 grams, usually around the 300 mark.

yeah but dorian yates also got huge on H.I.T., great genes and great drugs= dorian yates, no disrespect he is awesome though.

 

[Socrates]

i think you guys have pretty much said it all. But there are two sides to this story, i am cutting or trying to gain size. obviously when cutting you need to keep protein higher to spare protein and deplete to get dry and shredded. when training hard you need the carbs higher to train which will also spare protein. so portein can then be less. bottom line is protein is the best to err in the over side. if you err in to much carbs or fat, you are guranteed new storage of water and fat. if overboard in protein you still have options. (gluconeogenesis, energy, excretement, storage.....)

 

[Lanceromance1]

This month's Flex has an article about some new scientific studies that the age old "a calorie is a calorie" rule may not be true. Studies show protein calories play a different role in the laws of thermodynamics.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

"New"?