Question on carb timing

[OUfan]

I read an article that talks about it being ideal to have a large portion (80%+) of your carbs after your workout up to 6 hours later due to the heightened muscle sensitivity - they get stored as glycogen rather than fat (which occurs to some extent the rest of the day, when fat cells are sensitive). I currently intake over 80% of my carbs prior to my workout, but that is because I work out in the evening from 6pm-7pm and go to bed around 11pm, so i only have time for PWO nutrition and 1 more meal (2 including casein and whey i have before bed).

So should I rearrange my diet to push a lot more carbs to my post workout, pre bedtime meal? And add more carbs to my meals immediately prior to workout? (This meal is just fat and protein currently).

Thanks for any advice you may have.

 

[The Spirit]

Interesting theory

I get mine in early and carb curfew most complex really EARLY

it really depends on your goals, I Dont think you will be able to burn off too many carbs pre-bed

 

[Sim882]

Are you bulking or cutting?

I will assume your cutting.

Presumably, if you have low carbed during day, consuming the carbs during the evening after workout will only replenish glycogen and not be fattening.

In this case it's irrelevant when you consume your carbs for fat storage. The only problem of late carb consumption would then be GH inhibition.

The only proviso is insulin insensitivity. If you have poor insulin sensitivity, then carbs consumed around workouts, and in the morning are preferable because they are less likely to be stored as fat. Consuming carbs post workout at night is fine IMO, as the workout results in carb depletion and increased sensitivity. My only advice is to tailor the carbs to the workout.

For e.g., I'm cutting at moment - on Monday, I went crazy, did an 1.5 hours of weights consisting purely of front squats, back squats, bench, deadlifts, power cleans, weighed chins, lunges, dips, i.e., all calorie burners. I work my self hardest for ages, as the heart rate monitor I used confirmed. Therefore, I consumed a large quantity of carbs PWO (70 grams, note I use pumpkin and white potato though as carbs). If I was to do an arm day (which I don't, but just consider it hypothetically), fewer calories would be burnt, and therefore only a small glyocegen debt is created. Then it becomes riskier to have those late evening carbs, and I would consider something smaller (30).

Tailer this to your insulin sensitivity (which you can only guess by determining whether carbs make you fat), what you ate earlier in the day, and the importance you place on GH inhibition (if you don't know what I mean, growth hormone production is suppressed during sleep if large amounts of insulin are present. Large quantities of carbs can do this. However, note whey protein creates a large insulin response and all foods except unsaturated fats and fructose I think create some insulin response. You will have to ask someone more learned like TatYana if whey protein creates enough insulin to inhibit GH )

 

[OUfan]

Are you bulking or cutting?

I will assume your cutting.

Presumably, if you have low carbed during day, consuming the carbs during the evening after workout will only replenish glycogen and not be fattening.

In this case it's irrelevant when you consume your carbs for fat storage. The only problem of late carb consumption would then be gh - growth hormone (somatropin) - inhibition.

The only proviso is insulin insensitivity. If you have poor insulin sensitivity, then carbs consumed around workouts, and in the morning are preferable because they are less likely to be stored as fat. Consuming carbs post workout at night is fine IMO, as the workout results in carb depletion and increased sensitivity. My only advice is to tailor the carbs to the workout.

For e.g., I'm cutting at moment - on Monday, I went crazy, did an 1.5 hours of weights consisting purely of front squats, back squats, bench, deadlifts, power cleans, weighed chins, lunges, dips, i.e., all calorie burners. I work my self hardest for ages, as the heart rate monitor I used confirmed. Therefore, I consumed a large quantity of carbs PWO (70 grams, note I use pumpkin and white potato though as carbs). If I was to do an arm day (which I don't, but just consider it hypothetically), fewer calories would be burnt, and therefore only a small glyocegen debt is created. Then it becomes riskier to have those late evening carbs, and I would consider something smaller (30).

Tailer this to your insulin sensitivity (which you can only guess by determining whether carbs make you fat), what you ate earlier in the day, and the importance you place on GH inhibition (if you don't know what I mean, growth hormone production is suppressed during sleep if large amounts of insulin are present. Large quantities of carbs can do this. However, note whey protein creates a large insulin response and all foods except unsaturated fats and fructose I think create some insulin response. You will have to ask someone more learned like TatYana if whey protein creates enough insulin to inhibit GH )

That is all really interesting, thanks for explaining that. I will take your advice and start by just shifting some carbs into the evening and see how it goes.

Yes I am cutting, and have currently plateaued for the past 2 months. During this time consuming about 2100-2200 cals/day 50/25/25. I am 6'1'', 219 lbs, about 17% BF. So I am thinking of bumping up to 2600 per day and going 50/30/20 just on a whim. Will look like this:

7:30AM
Oats - 1/2 cup
Egg Whites - 16 oz.
10:00AM
Tuna - 1 can
ANPB - 2 TBSP
12:00PM
Sweet Potato - medium
95% grnd beef - 4 oz.
2:00PM
Protein Shake
Almonds (raw)
4:00PM
Baked Potato - medium
Tuna - 1 can
7:00PM PWO
Protein Shake
Dextrose - 2 oz.
Flax - 1 TBSP
8:00PM
Chicken Breast - 4 oz
Rice (LGBR) - 1/2 c.
10:00PM
1/2 Whey shake
1/2 Casein shake
Skim Milk - 1 c.

I suppose at the very worst I will just not lose any body fat but pack on some more lean weight. I'm in the middle of a 5x5 progression, doing cardio 4x/week (2x HIIT 2x steady), and though I'm making some strength gains I feel like everything I'm doing is just maintaining myself which is BS to be working this hard and not losing the BF (I could be eating and growing!)

 

[Tatyana]

Your diet looks quite good, however, it is missing veggies.

One other thing, your body with adapt to whatever level of calories you put into it, I think having a calorie range works a lot better, and having a weekly cheat meal as well.

What do you mean by your plateau? Is it based on your bodyfat not dropping or your weight not dropping?

Have you also taken body measurements?

I have been doing a lot of reading lately on macronutrient cycling, and the hormonal responses to foods, which at times, I think may have more of an impact on fat loss than the number of calories, this has been addressed with mentioning insulin............

Insulin is the nutrient storage hormone, and puts amino acids (and glucose) into muscle, glucose into insulin sensitive tissues (greatest storage areas are the liver and muscle) and fatty acids into fat.............

High insulin + fat = fat storage

I am starting to think that the careful manipulation of the macronutrients is the way to go, not the elimination of any one of the macronutrients.

You may want to keep your starchy carbs, like sweet potatoes, away from fat. Fibrous veg is great with fat.

A huge amount of protein, in particular whey protein, will also elicit an insulin response. Protein in combination with fat and/or fibre will slow this response..........

 

[Sim882]

You may not like what I'm about to say, but I will be honest. You should wait to hear what more experienced people say as well though:

The reason you plateued appears to be you weren't eating enough (I don't know your age but I assumed your 25. Unless your much older its not going to change very much).



Your BMR is 2200.17. This is how many calories you need to survive if you are in a coma.

Given you are following the 5x5, even if you are doing no cardio, you qualify as at least moderately active, implying that you need just over 3000 calories to maintain weight . In fact, your maintenance could be quite a bit more, depending on your exercise intensity

I think what's happened is your metabolism has slowed because of prolonged dieting. Also, it looks like you were consuming just 131 grams of protein, far too little for your body weight (200 is a minimum). If your going to consume just 2000 calores, make sure more than 25% is protein. The lower the calorie diet, the higher the amount of protein required, as your body will start using it for glucose. As Tat says though, whey is not always the best choice because it elicits a lot of insulin (although I have a question for Tat: why the popularity of the whey + ANPB response then? This diet seems silly to me, this being one of the many reasons as the point of a low carb diet is to reduce insulin, so why choose the one protein source that spikes it the most - chicken/tuna would make more sense)

A low calorie diet, particularly without any calorie cycling, coupled with a low protein intake, is a recipie for metabolic slowdown and muscle loss.

The good news is these problems are both reversible.

The course of action you suggest is desirable, but I would take it a step further. You perhaps should (gradually) increase calories to maintenance for a while, I'd say 3000. You will need to ask someone more experienced how long to stay there if you want to reconsider a cut (i.e., how long for your metabolism to be restored so you can lose weight again. This time when you cut consider a smaller deficit, or at least calorie cycling.

That is all really interesting, thanks for explaining that. I will take your advice and start by just shifting some carbs into the evening and see how it goes.

Yes I am cutting, and have currently plateaued for the past 2 months. During this time consuming about 2100-2200 cals/day 50/25/25. I am 6'1'', 219 lbs, about 17% BF. So I am thinking of bumping up to 2600 per day and going 50/30/20 just on a whim. Will look like this:

7:30AM
Oats - 1/2 cup
Egg Whites - 16 oz.
10:00AM
Tuna - 1 can
ANPB - 2 TBSP
12:00PM
Sweet Potato - medium
95% grnd beef - 4 oz.
2:00PM
Protein Shake
Almonds (raw)
4:00PM
Baked Potato - medium
Tuna - 1 can
7:00PM PWO
Protein Shake
Dextrose - 2 oz.
Flax - 1 TBSP
8:00PM
Chicken Breast - 4 oz
Rice (LGBR) - 1/2 c.
10:00PM
1/2 Whey shake
1/2 Casein shake
Skim Milk - 1 c.

I suppose at the very worst I will just not lose any body fat but pack on some more lean weight. I'm in the middle of a 5x5 progression, doing cardio 4x/week (2x HIIT 2x steady), and though I'm making some strength gains I feel like everything I'm doing is just maintaining myself which is BS to be working this hard and not losing the BF (I could be eating and growing!)

 

[Tatyana]

oooooooooooh good catch simms.

I missed that needing a bit of sleep right now.

Whey and ANPB because the fat will slow/blunt the insulin response as far as gather thus far.

Post workout, whey isolate is great, your muscle is hungry.

I am also not a big fan of the use of dextrose or sucrose, I think that more complete or natural simple sugars are a better option, like bee pollen, manuka honey, rice cakes, even potatoes. Fructose from fruit is not as great as it's storage is favoured in the liver, and insulin will not accelerate it's storage in the muscles.

My concern with people on 'cutting' diets is that they are cutting for what purpose? I think establishing really simple ways of eating that you can maintain are the best way to go, otherwise it is just another fad diet, and you will end up rebounding.

I also think there are ways of shifting your metabolism from burning sugar to burning fat, but not if you are not eating enough.

There is a thermogenic property to food, so whole foods use calories to digest, and this will also raise your metabolic rate. Fibrous veggies, fruit and whole sources of protein are best for this.

 

[Sim882]

I thought honey is 40% fructose, at least according to nutrition.data.com (I don't know composition of bee pollen, manuka). Does taste good though

I kinda think desiree potatoes are an ideal PWO carb, GI 102 (if you want something very fast acting), but also contain valuable nutrition. If your very hungry, pumpkin GI 75 is not bad, but you have to eat a lot of it. Certainly the most nutritious of all high GI foods. Sometimes I will make 800 grams of it before workouts, and make one massive soup to consume after workout. I realize a strange PWO choice (it seems to have assisted my sun tan though).

oooooooooooh good catch simms.

I missed that needing a bit of sleep right now.

Whey and ANPB because the fat will slow/blunt the insulin response as far as gather thus far.

Post workout, whey isolate is great, your muscle is hungry.

I am also not a big fan of the use of dextrose or sucrose, I think that more complete or natural simple sugars are a better option, like bee pollen, manuka honey, rice cakes, even potatoes. Fructose from fruit is not as great as it's storage is favoured in the liver, and insulin will not accelerate it's storage in the muscles.

My concern with people on 'cutting' diets is that they are cutting for what purpose? I think establishing really simple ways of eating that you can maintain are the best way to go, otherwise it is just another fad diet, and you will end up rebounding.

I also think there are ways of shifting your metabolism from burning sugar to burning fat, but not if you are not eating enough.

There is a thermogenic property to food, so whole foods use calories to digest, and this will also raise your metabolic rate. Fibrous veggies, fruit and whole sources of protein are best for this.

 

[Tatyana]

Think you are right about the honey thing.

This is my 'off' month, so I am eating as many different healthy hippy foods as I can.

Have a shed load of goji berries I also have to eat before I start dieting for next season.

 

[OUfan]

I forgot to add them in b/c I'm not really counting them, but I will have 2 servings veggies (brocolli, cauliflower, or celery) as well as 2 servings of fruits (probably strawberries, blueberries, and blackberries. oranges or grapefruit once in awhile)

Yes my bodyfat and my weight have been stable. I have not taken body measurements though, so I am at a loss there. Thanks for the rest of the advice. On my current plan I do keep fats away from carbs, so i should probably continue this since it seems to be agreed upon.

Your diet looks quite good, however, it is missing veggies.

One other thing, your body with adapt to whatever level of calories you put into it, I think having a calorie range works a lot better, and having a weekly cheat meal as well.

What do you mean by your plateau? Is it based on your bodyfat not dropping or your weight not dropping?

Have you also taken body measurements?

I have been doing a lot of reading lately on macronutrient cycling, and the hormonal responses to foods, which at times, I think may have more of an impact on fat loss than the number of calories, this has been addressed with mentioning insulin............

Insulin is the nutrient storage hormone, and puts amino acids (and glucose) into muscle, glucose into insulin sensitive tissues (greatest storage areas are the liver and muscle) and fatty acids into fat.............

High insulin + fat = fat storage

I am starting to think that the careful manipulation of the macronutrients is the way to go, not the elimination of any one of the macronutrients.

You may want to keep your starchy carbs, like sweet potatoes, away from fat. Fibrous veg is great with fat.

A huge amount of protein, in particular whey protein, will also elicit an insulin response. Protein in combination with fat and/or fibre will slow this response..........