Low carb diet and seratonin levels

[trying2tone]

Hi there all! I'm new to this board but my boyfriend has been a member for quite a while and he suggested I come on to post a question regarding low carb diets and seratonin levels. I just read an article yesterday that suggested that low carb diets may deplete seratonin levels and cause depression- has anyone heard of this? I am currently on this low carb-high protein diet, and supplementing with ephedrine, caffeine and aspirin but I am feeling lethargic and unusually down (almost like permanent PMS!!!). Just wondering if I am affecting the seratonin levels in my brain while I'm doing this. I haven't noticed much weight loss as far as the scale goes, but I have noticed a firmer, more toned body. HELP!!!

 

[keiko]

Persdonally, I 'm not much of a fan of very low-carb (say under 50 grams) unless you're a very sedentary person with a lot of weight to lose.

Whenever I've low-carb'ed, my workouts sucked. Sure you lose water weight, but if you feel lousy and have no glucose in your body, what's the point? I understand the principles behind the CKD, and I can see why that works for some people. But as a way of eating while really lifting, I don't think low carbing works very well.

YOu feel like shit because your body has no fuel. Yes, your serotonin levels are low. You have no energy because your body has no glucose in your muscles. You can run on ketones and that's fine, but if you don't have a lot of weight to lose, you will start burning muscle is you don't carb-up every once in a while.

You can up your carbs, while retaining a balance between fats, carbs and protein. YOu can still get toned (I hate that word) becasue you can build muscle.

 

[Fennec]

Oh, that's funny! I was just writing about this same thing in my carb rotation hell thread.

My friend suggested St John's Wort while you are carb rotating, to increase the seratonin levels. I was just getting ready to try it. She says the tea works better for her than the pills, and also warned that it takes a week or two of taking it to get the therapeutic effect.

Fennec

 

[trying2tone]

PS. I forgot to give you my stats!! I'm 30 years old, 5'4" tall and weigh 110 lbs. Last summer I was down to 103 but I wasn't really firm. I would like to see about 105-107 this year. I'm eating mainly salad, roast turkey breast, fat free yogourt and protein shakes. I rollerblade about 4 times a week, 45 minutes per run, and I work it HARD! Once a week in the gym for stairmaster and/or elliptical, usually about 45 min to an hour there. I don't do any free weights or aerobics, my goal is not to gain strength or build big muscle, just to slim down, tone and firm the butt! Speaking of firming butts, I can't seem to find an excercise that targets mainly my rear, I always feel it in my quads. Any suggestions there?

 

[MR. BMJ]

I gave a girl the addresses for here and AF yesterday in class....hey "girl" if you are reading this post some Q's or e-mail me!
[email protected]

Yeah, i'm talking to you M______

MR. BMJ

 

[cockdezl]

TRYING, first off, most articles concerning low carb diets tend to be alot of hypotheses, with very little supporting evidence, and often a large amount of misinformation..."high protein will DESTROY your kidneys!", "ketosis can be DEADLY!", "low carbs causes your genitals to FALL OFF!", etc.

Studies have shown altered tryptophan and serotonin levels during low carbohydrate diets, but there is no supporting evidence for depression associated with this type of diet. In fact, no one has yet elucidated the causation of depression, and it is most likely multi-factorial (as seen in the variety of anti-depressants, with various mechanisms, some act on seratonergic systems, while others work on adrenergic and others on dopaminergic systems).

 

[blueyedkowgrl]

warlobo, a smooch???? what are ya gettin' soft on me?? apparently the wife's hormones are rubbing off on ya! lol just kidding!! lol

 

[Magda]

Good luck all you other girls!

The one thing I am having trouble with now is finding a diet cycle/routine without steroids.

Also, I love fruit juice and I was wondering how many glasses a day I could drink if I cut it 1/2 and /12 with club soda. Would it okay if I got most of my carbs with this? Any suggestions would be great.

trying2tone, there is an herb company called www.allwellco.com that will send free samples if you wanted to try some St. John's Wort tea or something else. If you don't get your free samples with an order you pay shipping but that is okay. I tried some kava kava and didn't really see a benefit so I was glad I did not have to buy a whole bottle.

 

[cockdezl]

St. Johns Wort seems to be a non-selective neurotransmitter elevator. It does not seem to target only one system (serotonergic vs adrenergic vs dopaminergic), but elevates all. Since it is a phyto-chemical preparation, there is more than one active ingredient and the total is greater than certain single ingredients.

For those on low carb diets, the use of 5-HTP, with a small carb meal (high glucose preferably) and St. Johns Wort may be useful. The 5-HTP and carb meal would increase serotonin levels, and the St. Johns Wort may help maintain this level.

"Small carb meal" meaning 15-25g of carbs. Just enough to get an insulin rise and drive 5-HTP into the CNS.

 

[Magda]

What do you think about my fruit juice? Btw, I have a lot of weight to lose. Also, I have a few recipies in my protein power book if anyone wants something different to eat.

 

[cockdezl]

"What do you think about my fruit juice? Btw, I have a lot of weight to lose."

There is nothing wrong with your idea (fruit juice/soda water), since it truly boils down to caloric level. You could lose weight on an all M&M diet, if the calories were low enough.

Grape juice tends to have the highest carb levels, while apple juice has low glucose/high fructose level (lower insulin release with fructose).

 

[trying2tone]

My bf's name is Macgyver, he's been hanging around here for a while now!! I will definitely give him a huge smooch when I see him, thanks honey for the "gift" of information (if your reading this post!!) Sooooooooo, I will try St. John's Wort, preferably the pills as I don't drink tea, and see how that does for me. My carb intake is under 50 per day, should I up it? I'm only trying to lose about 3 more pounds...everyone said I was too "skinny" and looked sick at 103 lbs last year. I just want to look healthy and fit at about 107. Hey, what do you think about grapefruit juice- heard the acid in it is great for weight loss?? Thanks guys, this is a great way to find out all I need to know, you'll be hearing a lot from me!!

 

[keiko]

There's no magic in grapefruit juice, although if you wash down an ECA stack with a glass of it, the effects of the stack last slightly longer. Whole fruits are a better carb choice than the juices, because of the fiber.

With all due respect, I'd concentrate on "looking healthy and fit" and not worry about what the scales say. Size is a better indication of lean body mass than weight.

 

[Big Johnson]

I'M REALLY SICK OF THE ANTI-LOW CARBIST PROPAGANDA. I'VE BEEN ON A LOW CARB DIET FOR MOST OF THE LAST THREE YEARS. ITS THE BEST DIET I'VE EVER TRIED AND I'VE NEVER FELT BETTER. I'M LEANER, HEALTHIER, HAVE MORE ENERGY, AND MUCH HAPPIER.

A FEW THINGS TO CONSIDER WHEN STARTING THIS DIET ARE:

- THE ENZYMES REQUIRED TO DIGEST FAT AND PROTEIN TAKE SEVERAL WEEKS TO REACH ADEQUATE LEVELS FOR A NO-CARB DIET. FOR SOME, LONGER.

- BLOOD SUGAR LEVELS WILL BE LOW UNTIL YOUR BODY ADJUSTS TO KETO, MAKING YOU FEEL LETHARGIC AND TIRED. INSULIN LEVELS WILL ALSO BE LOW AT FIRST, MAKING NUTRIENT TRANSPORT LIMITED. THIS WILL TEMPORARILY AFFECT MANY PHYSIOLOGICAL PROCESSES, BUT STICK WITH IT FOR TWO MONTHS AND YOU'LL BE GLAD YOU DID.

- THE BACTERIA IN YOUR GUT WILL SHIFT TO MORE BENEFICIAL STRAINS AS YOU CONTINUE TO EAT NO/LOW CARB. AT FIRST, DIGESTIVE DISTURBANCES AND FEELING CRAPPY MAY RESULT. TAKE A PROBIOTIC DURING THIS TIME.

HEY, THERE'S A REASON ESKIMOS ARE SO LEAN AND MUSCULAR. EVEN MODERNIZED ESKIS THAT FOLLOW A TRADITIONAL DIET OF SEAL, CARIBOU, AND FISH REMAIN IN FANTASTIC PHYSICAL CONDITION, DESPITE USING SNOW MOBILES, FIREARMS, CARS, ETC., AND NOT GETTING ALL THAT EXCERSIZE.

 

[trying2tone]

Is there a reason why there is a half-naked woman attached to my post?????????

 

[waterboy]

lol

 

[MS]

Chill out Big Johnson, and remember you are on a women's board. If you did a little research on eskimos, you'd find that eskimo males have lower skinfold measurements than other American males, but still have the same %bf (internal fat accumulation instead of subcutaneous). You would also find that eskimo WOMEN have HIGHER skinfold measurements AND higher internal fat stores than your average american female. In other words we find yet again that men and women are not the same!

 

[trying2tone]

TYVM

Thanks to whoever took the nudie pic out....

 

[Magda]

Also, as a whole, Eskimo’s are of shorter stature because of changes of thousands of years. Smaller in stature means they have less skin surface so less heat can escape. Plus, during anthropology I wrote a paper about a hypothesis of mine that Neanderthals are really not extinct but the ancestors of the Eskimos due to their body habitus, short and stocky basically, very rugged and their facial features.

That really did not have much to do with the previous post did it?

 

[Big Johnson]

Chill out Big Johnson, and remember you are on a women's board.

THANKS BRO, ALMOST FORGOT WHERE I WAS...EEERRRRR

If you did a little research on eskimos, you'd find that eskimo males have lower skinfold measurements than other American males

ESKIMOS ARE AMERICAN, STUPID - ESKIMOS LIVE IN NORTH AMERICA

but still have the same %bf (internal fat accumulation instead of subcutaneous).

AND YOU GOT YOUR INFO WHERE? THE SOURCE OF MY INFO CAN BE FOUND IN "PROTEIN POWER" BY THE EADES. WHAT ABOUT YOUR'S?

You would also find that eskimo WOMEN have HIGHER skinfold measurements AND higher internal fat stores than your average american female.

WHICH MEANS...?

In other words we find yet again that men and women are not the same!

WAS THIS NEWS TO YOU?

SO I GUESS LOW CARB DIETS DON'T REDUCE BODY FAT...EEERRRRR

RETARD

 

[Big Johnson]

Also, as a whole, Eskimo’s are of shorter stature because of changes of thousands of years. Smaller in stature means they have less skin surface so less heat can escape. Plus, during anthropology I wrote a paper about a hypothesis of mine that Neanderthals are really not extinct but the ancestors of the Eskimos due to their body habitus, short and stocky basically, very rugged and their facial features.

That really did not have much to do with the previous post did it?

INTERESTING. ESKIS ARE A COLD-ADAPTED FORM OF HOMO SAPIENS, MUCH LIKE NEANDERTHALS AND SOME NORTHERN EUROPEANS. BUT, THE DNA EVIDENCE SUGGESTS ESKIS ARE ASIAN.

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE NEANDERTHAL HYBRIDS BEING DISCOVERED ALONG THE IBERIAN PENINSULA IN EUROPE? YOU KNOW, SOME SUGGEST THAT THE UNIQUE FEATURES FOUND IN CAUCASOIDS AND NO OTHER RACE OF HUMAN ARE ACTUALLY NEANDERTHAL TRAITS, PRESENT DUE TO INBREEDING BETWEEN 20 AND 30 THOUSAND YEARS AGO.

(EX-BIOANTHROPOLOGY MAJOR HERE)

 

[MS]

I see no reason for insults. I guess you do. Do you want references to the differences in metabolism and bodyfat distribution between men and women, or to the differences in metabolism and bodyfat distribution between different distinct races (even within North America), or do you want references to changes in metabolism induced by long-term acclimatization to cold climates? I'm sorry, but I do not consider some popular fad-diet book to be a trustworthy reference. Here's a few scientific references to get you started! Let me know if you want more.

The height of the Eskimos is below that of Europeans, while their weight is equal. Thus, the Eskimo have a high weight-for-height they are short and stocky as children as well as when they are adult. (Eveleth, P.B. & Tanner, J.M. (1976) Worldwide Variation in Human Growth: Cambridge Univ. Press, London p. 128-9) Studies of skinfold thickness in Eskimo adults have given means below those of Euro-Americans (Elsner, 1963; Shephard, Hatcher & Rose, 1973; Shephard, 1974), though the work of Jamison & Zegura, 1970, show that skinfolds of adult males are comparable to US males. Those of females are considerably greater. The authors state that while the adult males remained lean and muscular, the women became quite fat. During childhood, however, the subcutaneous fat in females was not great. It only increased around 12 years at about the time of adolescence. Reports of small skinfolds caused considerable surprise because it had been expected that Eskimos would have a high percentage of body fat as protection against the cold (Newman, 1956), and as a result of their extremely high fat diet (Ho et al., 1972). The possibility that body fat could have a different distribution in Eskimos than in Europeans and total fat not be closely related to subcutaneous fat as measured by skinfolds, has been examined by determination of total body water. Higher percentages of body fat were indeed shown than would be predicted from using the European regression of body fat on skinfold (Shephard et al., 1973). Even so the levels were no higher than those of many American college students." (Eveleth, P.B. & Tanner, J.M. (1976) Worldwide Variation in Human Growth: Cambridge Univ. Press, London p. 268-9).

What all this means is NOT that keto diets don't work, but that Eskimos are not a valid model to assess whether or not they work in WASPs living in temperate climates.
Eskimos are also not on calorie restricted keto diets. Obviously if you intentionally eat less than you burn off then you will lose weight. In other words, low carb diets do NOT necessarily reduce bodyfat!! Most importantly of all, and I'm re-emphasizing this because you seem to shrug it off as irrelevant, this is a woman's board, and women and men are not the same!

 

[MS]

No no no WarLobo, this is not a 'battle'. I apologize Big J if I sounded like a low-carb basher. I have no question in my mind that humans can live quite healthy lifestyles on an all meat diet, as the Eskimos did and continue to do. It's just that these days there seems to be more carb bashers around than keto bashers, so your little rant took me by surprise. I am happy for your success on your diet, and acknowledge that many people have lost fat on that type of diet when all other diets have failed them. But if a diet isn't working for you (I'm a patient person, but even I consider 2 months to be too long to stick with a diet before I stop feeling like death), then don't continue with it forever just because someone else raves about it. And if you're not losing fat on a diet, change something! I also suffered depression (for the first and only time) while attempting a CKD diet. My depression lifted instantly during my carb-ups. The other thing I noticed with CKD was that I lost weight first (water), then fat, but nothing budged from my thighs and butt. I also know several men who have CKD'd for shows quite successfully, but not a single female. Given the relative increase in estrogen as a result of diets high in sat fats for adult women (and the early menarche and rapid fat accumulation of eskimo females also supports this) I cannot wholeheartedly recommend this type of diet for everyone. But I encourage anyone that can't lose weight on other diets to at least try it and see if it works for them.

Finally, supporting the already enormous meat-eating habits of western cultures is crippling this planet ecologically speaking. I know this is not relevant to a fitness discussion board, but the bottom line is that this planet cannot support everyone eating like an eskimo. It's just another good reason to try diets with a higher proportion of primary plant-based foods.

 

[Temple]

Careful MS - you're going to get the rancher's daughter riled up with that last statement and then Lobo will be throwin' the yellow flag at me!

 

[Big Johnson]

I'm sorry, but I do not consider some popular fad-diet book to be a trustworthy reference

THE BOOK WAS WRITTEN BY TWO CARDIOLOGISTS WITH YEARS OF CLINICAL RESEARCH TO BACK UP THEIR HYPOTHESIS THAT LOW FAT, HIGH CARB DIETS CAUSE OBESITY AND HEART DISEASE. ARE THESE TWO INDIVIDUALS REALLY WORTHY OF YOUR CRITICISM, MS? OR HAVE YOU PERHAPS BARKED UP THE WRONG TREE? I GUESS YOU KNOW MORE THAN THEY DO...

Studies of skinfold thickness in Eskimo adults have given means below those of Euro-Americans (Elsner, 1963; Shephard, Hatcher & Rose, 1973; Shephard, 1974), though the work of Jamison & Zegura, 1970, show that skinfolds of adult males are comparable to US males. Those of females are considerably greater. The authors state that while the adult males remained lean and muscular, the women became quite fat. During childhood, however, the subcutaneous fat in females was not great. It only increased around 12 years at about the time of adolescence. Reports of small skinfolds caused considerable surprise because it had been expected that Eskimos would have a high percentage of body fat as protection against the cold (Newman, 1956), and as a result of their extremely high fat diet (Ho et al., 1972). The possibility that body fat could have a different distribution in Eskimos than in Europeans and total fat not be closely related to subcutaneous fat as measured by skinfolds, has been examined by determination of total body water. Higher percentages of body fat were indeed shown than would be predicted from using the European regression of body fat on skinfold (Shephard et al., 1973). Even so the levels were no higher than those of many American college students."

THAT STUDY IS OUTDATED. PEOPLE IN THE U.S. ARE MUCH FATTER NOW THAN THEY WERE 30 YEARS AGO, MS. FUNNY, THIS INCREASE IN OBESITY FOLLOWS THE INCREASING TREND FOR DIETS LOW IN FAT AND HIGH IN CARBS. ALSO, ESKIMO DIETS MAY HAVE YIELDED A BF% COMPARABLE WITH U.S. MALES IN COLLEGE THIRTY YEARS AGO, BUT THE AVERAGE US MALE IS MUCH MORE FAT THAN THE AVERAGE COLLEGE MALE, EVEN MORE SO TODAY. CONCLUSION, ESKIMOS ARE MORE LEAN THAN PEOPLE WHO FOLLOW HIGH CARB, LOW FAT DIETS. JUST LIKE I SAID.

YOU'RE POINT ABOUT FEMALE PHYSIOLOGY BEING DIFFERENT IS WELL TAKEN. HOWEVER, I KNOW SEVERAL WOMEN WHO HAVE LOST A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT OF WEIGHT AND SEVERAL MORE WHO STAY LEAN AND MUSCULAR FOLLOWING THE LOW CARB DIET. JUST BECAUSE YOU SUFFERED FROM DEPRESSION WHEN YOU TRIED THE KETO DIET DOESN'T MEAN IT DOESN'T WORK.

LAST, YOUR POINT ABOUT MEAT PRODUCTION BEING HARMFUL FOR THE ENVIRONMENT IS GOOD, BUT SO IS DRIVING CARS, FLYING IN PLANES, CLEANING YOUR TOILET, ETC., AND THAT STILL DOESN'T MEAN HIGH CARB DIETS DON'T MAKE YOU FAT!

INSULIN, AS SEEN IN ADULT ONSET DIABETICS, IS THE CAUSE OF OBESITY, HEART DISEASE, STROKE, ARTERIOLOSCLEROSIS, ETC. THE ONLY WAY TO CONTROL INSULIN IS TO LOWER YOUR INTAKE OF CARBS. LESS INSULIN = LESS FAT GAIN

 

[MS]

Your points about the research being outdated are well taken, but in the 70's when the studies were done non-eskimo Americans were still eating significant amounts of carbs. I also do not "know more than 2 prominent cardiologists" who wrote the book, I am just naturally suspicious of any book which is trying to sell the public on a particular diet. There is no doubt in my mind that the evidence they present will be biased in support of their diet. You don't sell many diet books by saying "this is just one of many effective ways to lose fat and protect your heart. For alternative diets refer to........". Obviously I haven't read the book, so I apologize to the authors if I have misread their intentions.

As I said before, I am not disagreeing with the obvious benefits of very low carb dieting for many people, I just don't go in for evangelism, or anyone who says this is THE way to live. I also recognize that controlling insulin levels is critical to long term health and chronic disease prevention. Insulin control can also be achieved by adherence to a largely plant-based diet with whole grains, nuts, legumes and vegetables, as well as meat. The avoidance of processed foods, especially carbs, is critical here IMHO. So yes, an extreme diet will work, but so will a balanced, more moderate diet. Which one is easier to stick to or is more effective depends on the individual.

I only gave my personal experience of CKD to let trying2tone know that I had a problem similar to what she was asking about. It is not my only experience with keto diets as I have clients on it right now doing very well thank you. I have had more clients (almost entirely female) who did poorly on it. And I have asked honestly and openly both on this board and on the diet board for FEMALES to come forward and rave about the diet. I have only ever received positive responses from males so far (and all evangelical). This is not science, just observation. There are no doubt females out there with great keto success stories, but to me they seem to be in the minority. Or they're not admitting to it.

Finally, I cannot get out of my mind the 2 most prominent names in low-carb (CKD) dieting around. Lyle McDonald and Elzi Vokl. I was a little stunned when I finally saw photos of these 2 folks after following CKD for cutting and bulking. Lyle could have put on more muscle and less fat by just eating normally and training hard in my opinion. And Elzi, well, kudos to her for competing and using a CKD (and posting her photos), but I would not have gotten on a stage with that much fat still clinging to my butt and thighs. I say that as someone probably too critical, but that women was mean and lean on her upper body, she just couldn't lose that estrogenic lower body fat even with all her yohimbine and keto knowledge.

Anyway, I'm gonna leave this post alone now. It is clearly not productive for me to continue this thread.

Happy ketosis Big J and all you other folks doing well on keto diets. Continued feedback is really important, and I again encourage men, women and children to share their experiences on all types of diets.

 

[keiko]

Just to add my 2cents worth--the most astounding success stories I've heard (esp. on the Usenet low-carb newsgroups, alt.support.diet.low-carb) were from people who had always been heavy, had never really exercised and had yo-yo dieted for years. Low-carb was a revelation to them and woe to anyone who pointed out that their keto diets were not magic, but rather reduced-calorie. Lyle McDonald got flamed like all hell when he posted back in Feb. of this year (shortly thereafter, I discovered this board.). he was pointing out that due to the high protein and fat intake, hunger pangs abated, people felt more satisfied and they ate less. The psychological aspects of a diet that doesn't force the dieter to feel deprived are important, too.

Keto works fine, but it's not magic. If it works for you--great. But, as MS said, there are plenty of other diets that work as well.

 

[Ana]

MS and others go to www.omen.com, click on
Adiposity101.
I've printed out, read and underlined some enlightening
and amazing facts about low carb diets and dieting
in general....what works and WHY it works.

And for the record I'm doing Atkins. I'm not over weight..
I just get good results and no sugar cravings.
I started w/ 20g. of carbs for two weeks. I felt like
DEATH for 8 days(sugar detox), my face broke out, moody, craving sugar of course, lack of strength in the
gym...
By week 3 I felt like I was high (I don't smoke pot),
happy, calm, face cleared, no cravings for anything, no appetite really, But I still ate 'cause I make GOOD lo-carb food.

In the gym I could still lift the same but only 10 reps, not
my usual 15. Cardio fine, no prob., pop an E/C I'm set.

Bathroom break....where was I? Oh yeah you pee all the
time too.

My point is...is that I use this diet in the summer mths. to
specifically lose the blubber in my lower body.
Insulin lays down the fat in this area, not just estrogen.

Funny thing happened when I went into Ketosis...
Since you start burning your own fat for fuel, estrogen
stored in the fat cells were released and it made me
start my cycle a couple days early. So cool how the body works. ALSO, hot flashes like when your going through
menopause right? Well it means LOW ESTROGEN levels.
(21yrs. old)

I think everyone should get into ketosis and stay there
for MORE than a week and you'll see and feel some
incredible results.
Things to look for when in ketosis: Bad breath, hot flashes, energy all day-all night(if U can't sleep,take melatonin), no cravings, no appetite, no depression.
Now if U lo-carb during the week, then carb up your
constantly going to feel like $hit IMHO.
Get into ketosis and stay there.
Learn about this diet, it's amazing.

 

[Temple]

I guess I'm just too attached to my oatmeal and yams. I have never done the keto thing but the craze hit here like everywhere else. Keep in mind that the 20-30 women that I have watched lose tons of weight on this were not doing any weight training at all but what I have observed is that most of them got skinny, skinny,skinny on it but they appeared very flabby. They also aged about 10 years, their faces looked really drawn and unwell. Bad breath is putting it mildly. Then roughly 90% went off the diet and are now OBESE! Not a scientific trial by any means just enough evidence to make me darned leary.

 

[trying2tone]

wow

Well, I didn't think one simple question would cause so much trouble!! And it didn't even have anything to do with my original post ! At any rate, you've just confirmed what I expected...low carbing DOES NOT get rid of lower body fat. I swear my ass is bigger since I started, but then I wonder if it's the high protein combined with rollerblading that's building the muscle. I've heard of SMB (Stair Master Butt) but never thought I'd have one! My abs, though, have really come out, and I've noticed a change in the SHAPE of my ass, but the scale still isn't dropping. DAMN!! This is so frustrating. At any rate, you've raised another question for me re: estrogen levels. I have been on the pill for years, but recently decided to to a continuous cycle for 3 months ( no break in the pills, therefore NO PERIOD!!) Apparently it's safe to do this on a 3 month cycle, and menstruate only 4 times per year. SOOOOO, my question is....Could this be part of the problem for me?? Are my estrogen levels all screwed up because of it and could it be affecting my lack of weight loss? I am having hot flashes like crazy (30 years old), mood swings, lethargy, MAJOR cravings for sweets and Big Macs (lol) and just a general feeling of "The hell with it, I'm doing allright at 30, I have a 5 year old son, I'm 110 pounds, I wear a size 1, and I'm never looking in a mirror again" syndrome. Maybe I'm just too critical of myself. What do you think?

 

[Temple]

If you are asking will BC Pills make your butt fat the answer is YES!!! You can accept it or stop taking the pill which I know is a terrible choice to have to make.

 

[Ana]

I admit sometimes I go hog wild and devour my
favorite foods that I've missed, but I always go back to
low carb.
Whether it be strict 20g. and under or a comfy 75g.
give or take.

 

[MS]

Is it possible your gaining muscle while losing fat? I mean, if you ignore the scale and look at yourself objectively, maybe the diet is working very well for you. Though if I were you I would try to find alternatives to the pill if possible.

Ana, your story is just the sort of feedback I've been looking for, thanks for sharing. I agree (and Temple alluded to this) that full-time or even CKD diets are very tough to stop without major rebound. One of the 2 women I have doing very well on keto I have recommended she consider it as a lifestyle change because twice she has tried to stop and gained HUGE amounts of fat back quickly. She was clinically obese to begin with and has otherwise made good fat losses with a keto diet. So maybe folks thinking about trying a keto diet should think about their reasons. If it's just for quick weight loss for a show or a holiday then be prepared to gain the weight back once you stop. If it is for long term fatloss and maitenance, then we may be looking at a keto 'body-for-life' scenario.

And I won't be trying this keto for life diet since I am not fat, have very good insulin sensitivity, low BP, boundless energy (almost) and otherwise feel great on my modified foragers diet. And I also rebounded pretty badly after my one (4 week) attempt at CKD.

 

[Big Johnson]

Re: wow

low carbing DOES NOT get rid of lower body fat. I swear my ass is bigger since I started, but then I wonder if it's the high protein combined with rollerblading that's building the muscle. I've heard of SMB (Stair Master Butt) but never thought I'd have one! My abs, though, have really come out, and I've noticed a change in the SHAPE of my ass, but the scale still isn't dropping. DAMN!!

MS MAKES A GOOD POINT ABOUT THE FEMALE ORGANISM AND ITS RESPONSE TO ESTROGEN. BUT, YOUR LEAN BODY MASS IS MOST LIKELY INCREASING, AS MOST WOMEN ARE PROTEIN DEFICIENT AND SEE AN INCREASE IN LEAN MUSCLE ON KETO DIETS. THIS INCREASED MUSCLE MASS WILL HELP RAISE YOUR METABOLISM, IMPROVE YOUR PHYSIQUE, AND GIVE YOU MORE STAMINA IN ANY PHYSICAL ENDEAVOR. IN ADDITION, ADEQUATE PROTEIN INTAKE IS ESSENTIAL FOR HEALTHY HAIR AND NAIL GROWTH, AS WELL AS PREVENTING SCAR TISSUE FROM FORMING DUE TO STRETCH MARKS OR OTHER DERMAL TRAUMA.

FOR THE RECORD, I AM NOT ON A LOW CALORIE DIET. I INTAKE ON AVERAGE 300 GRAMS OF PROTEIN, 450 GRAMS OF FAT, AND 30 GRAMS OF CARBS A DAY. THIS IS A HIGH CALORIE DIET, EVEN FOR A 220LB MALE!

I, TOO, FELT LIKE SHIT WHEN I STARTED THIS DIET. HOWEVER, AFTER TWO MONTHS I FELT BETTER THAN I HAD EVER FELT ON ANY DIET! IT WAS A NATURAL HIGH, AND I HAVE YET TO COME DOWN TRY IT, STICK WITH IT FOR A FEW MONTHS, AND SEE IF IT WORKS FOR YOU. BUT REMEMBER, THE MORE CARBS YOU WERE EATING BEFORE YOU START THE DIET, THE LONGER IT WILL TAKE YOUR BODY TO ACCLIMATE.

 

[Big Johnson]

And I won't be trying this keto for life diet since I am not fat, have very good insulin sensitivity, low BP, boundless energy (almost) and otherwise feel great on my modified foragers diet.

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According to S. Boyd Eaton, M.D., one of the foremost authorities on paleolithic (prehistoric) diets and a radiologist and medical anthropologist at Emory University in Atlanta, modern diets are out of sync with our genetic requirements. He makes the point that the less you eat like your ancestors, the more susceptible you'll be to coronary heart disease, cancer, diabetes and many other "diseases of civilization."1 To chart the right direction for improving your current or future nutrition, you have to understand--and often adopt--the diet of the past.

http://www.panix.com/~paleodiet/

ITS INTERESTING TO NOTE THAT CACASOIDS EVOLVED IN AN ENVIRONMENT THAT WAS COLD AND MOSTLY FRUITLESS. THOUGH THERE WERE SOME SPECIES OF FRUIT AND BERRIES, CARBS WERE NOT PART OF THE EVERYDAY DIET FOR A PALEOLITHIC PERSON.

DIETS HIGH IN CARBS NOW WILL GIVE YOU PROBLEMS LATER, IF NOT NOW. YOUR "INSULIN SENSITIVITY" WON'T LAST.

 

[MS]

Gotta agree 100% with Big J on the protein issue. I guess I am comparing 'traditional' bodybuilding bulking and cutting diets to keto diets though. In other words, I assume we're talking about women who have already seen the benefits of high protein diets (often even higher than on keto). As I've said before, for many women who have been low cal "dieting" all their lives without lasting results a keto diet works very well as long as they stay on it. Big J or Ana, do you eat keto 100% of the time? I'm assuming you do (except for the occassional blow out Ana ) Also, I'm too cheap to buy "Protein Power" so I'm wondering what kind of vitamins, etc, they recommend to go along with the diet. Again assuming that you don't eat all your meat freshly killed and raw, liver, marrow and all I'm guessing some supplements are suggested.

Feels like a totally diff thread from the original serotonin thread. I have just re-read trying2tone's original question, and I noticed that you're using ECA. This stuff can definitely make you feel like you're PMSing, and by increasing adrenergic activity it can throw the dopaminergic:serotonergic levels out of balance so to speak. If you've only just begun taking it, give yourself a chance to get used to it. Also, please hide your scales!! They are enemy number one. You've got a "firmer and more toned body" so who cares what the scales say?

Oh yeah, thanks for the link Big J. Believe it or not I am very familiar with the different theories and facts of traditional hunter-gatherer societies. Just like you have chosen one extreme of traditional hunter diets (no doubt very modified to suit your modern lifestyle) I have chosen to base my diet on another extreme of gatherer diets very much modified to suit my modern lifestyle. There is also a happy middle-ground too. In all cases I think we can agree that minimizing insulin production is the most important goal in long term health? Or maybe we can't agree. But I think a big problem as temple pointed out, is that many modern westernized homo sapiens think they can chop and change without repercussions. Going from a McDonald' based diet to a keto diet, or any other paleolithic diet, then back to a McDonald's diet is not gonna work long-term for most folks! I don't like meat. I like veggies, fruits and grains (and yes I cook many of my grains shame on me). I thrive on this diet, as do many folks once they accept it is a lifestyle, NOT A DIET. Same prolly applies to any very low carb diet. You only have to look at the poor Eskimos who have adopted a more traditional western diet to see that it is seriously detrimental to their health.

Peace

 

[Natural One]

trying2tone:
The Trytophan(sp?) in whey protein is supposed to increase serotonin levels and EFAs have a calming effect. Also, whey seems to really work to curb the appetite. I used to get really cranky and hungry on the keto diet too. Just choose better quality foods and don't go overboard on the Xenadrine. That stuff really drains me on this diet.

 

[Natural One]

trying2tone:
The Trytophan(sp?) in whey protein is supposed to increase serotonin levels and EFAs have a calming effect. Also, whey seems to really work to curb the appetite. I used to get really cranky and hungry on the keto diet too. Just choose better quality foods and don't go overboard on the Xenadrine. That stuff really drains me on this diet.

 

[trying2tone]

Protein drinks

I'm using "Designer" whey protein first thing in the morning, mixed with 4oz water and 4oz milk. Man, it tastes like CRAP!! My next question is WHEN DO I EAT? I have my protein shake first thing in the am and nothing after that (except water) until I go out for a 45 minute blade. I was told you burn more calories on an empty stomach. So when I get back from my run, I usually have salad (lettuce and cucumber) and some roast chicken or turkey breast. Should eat right away or wait an hour? My problem is that I gain muscle really quickly and easily...I don't want to!! I want to be SMALLER, my pants are all getting too tight in the legs now. I am definitely toning on this diet, but gaining muscle was not really a goal, just to lose fat. It is DEFINITELY a slow process....but working!

 

[keiko]

If you want to do cardio on an empty stomach, don't eat anything--no protein shake, nada!

When you get back from cardio, have some simple carbs in about 45 minutes, then some protein.

Don't take this personally, but I've never met a woman in real life or on-line, who doesn't claim to gain muscle easily.

Trying 2tone--if you wear a size 1, who cares what the scales say--you're not fucked up aboput body image, or weight or food, right?

 

[trying2tone]

Hmmmm...

Let's just say I'm an obsessive perfectionist who wants to be the best I can be. And I liked seeing 103 on the scales. At 5'4", I'm told I'm underweight at 110...who really knows? I'm small boned and I think I carry my weight in my rear end. Actually, correct that....109, I dropped a pound!!

 

[Big Johnson]

I LIKE YOU MS

 

[Temple]

Let's get back to the original subject here and where is Bikinimom when ya need her. Here's the deal and someone please correct me if I am wrong. It is possible at your current stats that you have quite a bit of body fat even though your weight is low. You are ultimately going to end up smaller at a higher weight if you gain some muscle and lose some fat. If you just lose the fat at this point you are still going to be flabby and pitiful. The hardest part of this is that when you begin weight training and start to gain muscle the fat is still there and there is a period of total misery where you are actually larger - I am just beginning to see daylight at the end of this tunnel myself. If you do it right you can put hard muscle where the fat used to be and look great - you will in the end weigh more but be smaller. Right now what you are attempting to do is like a cat chasing its tail. The mental adjustment that this requires is probably one of the biggest challenges you will ever face.

 

[trying2tone]

Temple

You have finally said something that made TOTAL sense to me!! Still have the fat but I'm gaining muscle, so the scales aren't budging and I'm discouraged. You've just given me the inspiration I needed! THANKS!

 

[Temple]

Glad that made sense to you. To get a hardbody it takes three things food, weights and some cardio. Right now it looks like you are pretty heavy on the cardio and lacking in the other two. I am assuming that you boyfriend knows his way around a weight room and can help you with a basic mass building routine - If not we can give you the basics but you will need someone to teach you proper form. Now, I said mass buiding and I am sure there are big red stop signs flashing in your head right now, also you said that you gain muscle easily. I am not picking on you but ALL women believe that they build muscle easily, I sang that song for over a year. The reality is that YOU DON"T and you will have to fight for every ounce that you get. It is the fat over a little muscle gain that gives the OH MY GOD I"M HYUGE and I only lifted weights twice illusion.
You also must eat at least 5 times per day, good clean foods and without getting into the whole keto debate I would add oatmeal, yams, vegetables other than salad into your diet plus you need some fat ex. a couple of tablespoons of flaxseed oil, plus lean protein sources. Each meal should have some protein, some carb and a little fat. You cannot build the muscle that you so desperately need with adequate calories. The biggest leap of faith that I ever took was when I accepted the fact that to get to where I wanted to go I was going to have to eat 2500 calories a day. I knew they were lying, that it was a conspiracy to watch me get fat, I knew it would never ever ever work, that somehow I was different. Well, guess what - I'm not and its working!!! The first three weeks is like going to hell, I gained 10 # of water virtually overnight, I felt stuffed all the time but I kept at it. Three weeks later the metabolism kicked in and the water weight dissappeared, I was starving every two to three hours and I began to see small changes in the way that my muscles felt under the fat. I was absolutely bigger than when I started but by doing this the muscle that I am gaining will eventually be the miracle that will help burn off all that fat, where there was flab there is now the beginning of shape and tone and ultimately when you do it this way you end up a smaller size, weigh more and you are hard instead of flabby.