Low carb diet and seratonin levels

[Big Johnson]

Also, as a whole, Eskimo’s are of shorter stature because of changes of thousands of years. Smaller in stature means they have less skin surface so less heat can escape. Plus, during anthropology I wrote a paper about a hypothesis of mine that Neanderthals are really not extinct but the ancestors of the Eskimos due to their body habitus, short and stocky basically, very rugged and their facial features.

That really did not have much to do with the previous post did it?

INTERESTING. ESKIS ARE A COLD-ADAPTED FORM OF HOMO SAPIENS, MUCH LIKE NEANDERTHALS AND SOME NORTHERN EUROPEANS. BUT, THE DNA EVIDENCE SUGGESTS ESKIS ARE ASIAN.

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE NEANDERTHAL HYBRIDS BEING DISCOVERED ALONG THE IBERIAN PENINSULA IN EUROPE? YOU KNOW, SOME SUGGEST THAT THE UNIQUE FEATURES FOUND IN CAUCASOIDS AND NO OTHER RACE OF HUMAN ARE ACTUALLY NEANDERTHAL TRAITS, PRESENT DUE TO INBREEDING BETWEEN 20 AND 30 THOUSAND YEARS AGO.

(EX-BIOANTHROPOLOGY MAJOR HERE)

 

[MS]

I see no reason for insults. I guess you do. Do you want references to the differences in metabolism and bodyfat distribution between men and women, or to the differences in metabolism and bodyfat distribution between different distinct races (even within North America), or do you want references to changes in metabolism induced by long-term acclimatization to cold climates? I'm sorry, but I do not consider some popular fad-diet book to be a trustworthy reference. Here's a few scientific references to get you started! Let me know if you want more.

The height of the Eskimos is below that of Europeans, while their weight is equal. Thus, the Eskimo have a high weight-for-height they are short and stocky as children as well as when they are adult. (Eveleth, P.B. & Tanner, J.M. (1976) Worldwide Variation in Human Growth: Cambridge Univ. Press, London p. 128-9) Studies of skinfold thickness in Eskimo adults have given means below those of Euro-Americans (Elsner, 1963; Shephard, Hatcher & Rose, 1973; Shephard, 1974), though the work of Jamison & Zegura, 1970, show that skinfolds of adult males are comparable to US males. Those of females are considerably greater. The authors state that while the adult males remained lean and muscular, the women became quite fat. During childhood, however, the subcutaneous fat in females was not great. It only increased around 12 years at about the time of adolescence. Reports of small skinfolds caused considerable surprise because it had been expected that Eskimos would have a high percentage of body fat as protection against the cold (Newman, 1956), and as a result of their extremely high fat diet (Ho et al., 1972). The possibility that body fat could have a different distribution in Eskimos than in Europeans and total fat not be closely related to subcutaneous fat as measured by skinfolds, has been examined by determination of total body water. Higher percentages of body fat were indeed shown than would be predicted from using the European regression of body fat on skinfold (Shephard et al., 1973). Even so the levels were no higher than those of many American college students." (Eveleth, P.B. & Tanner, J.M. (1976) Worldwide Variation in Human Growth: Cambridge Univ. Press, London p. 268-9).

What all this means is NOT that keto diets don't work, but that Eskimos are not a valid model to assess whether or not they work in WASPs living in temperate climates.
Eskimos are also not on calorie restricted keto diets. Obviously if you intentionally eat less than you burn off then you will lose weight. In other words, low carb diets do NOT necessarily reduce bodyfat!! Most importantly of all, and I'm re-emphasizing this because you seem to shrug it off as irrelevant, this is a woman's board, and women and men are not the same!

 

[MS]

No no no WarLobo, this is not a 'battle'. I apologize Big J if I sounded like a low-carb basher. I have no question in my mind that humans can live quite healthy lifestyles on an all meat diet, as the Eskimos did and continue to do. It's just that these days there seems to be more carb bashers around than keto bashers, so your little rant took me by surprise. I am happy for your success on your diet, and acknowledge that many people have lost fat on that type of diet when all other diets have failed them. But if a diet isn't working for you (I'm a patient person, but even I consider 2 months to be too long to stick with a diet before I stop feeling like death), then don't continue with it forever just because someone else raves about it. And if you're not losing fat on a diet, change something! I also suffered depression (for the first and only time) while attempting a CKD diet. My depression lifted instantly during my carb-ups. The other thing I noticed with CKD was that I lost weight first (water), then fat, but nothing budged from my thighs and butt. I also know several men who have CKD'd for shows quite successfully, but not a single female. Given the relative increase in estrogen as a result of diets high in sat fats for adult women (and the early menarche and rapid fat accumulation of eskimo females also supports this) I cannot wholeheartedly recommend this type of diet for everyone. But I encourage anyone that can't lose weight on other diets to at least try it and see if it works for them.

Finally, supporting the already enormous meat-eating habits of western cultures is crippling this planet ecologically speaking. I know this is not relevant to a fitness discussion board, but the bottom line is that this planet cannot support everyone eating like an eskimo. It's just another good reason to try diets with a higher proportion of primary plant-based foods.

 

[Temple]

Careful MS - you're going to get the rancher's daughter riled up with that last statement and then Lobo will be throwin' the yellow flag at me!

 

[Big Johnson]

I'm sorry, but I do not consider some popular fad-diet book to be a trustworthy reference

THE BOOK WAS WRITTEN BY TWO CARDIOLOGISTS WITH YEARS OF CLINICAL RESEARCH TO BACK UP THEIR HYPOTHESIS THAT LOW FAT, HIGH CARB DIETS CAUSE OBESITY AND HEART DISEASE. ARE THESE TWO INDIVIDUALS REALLY WORTHY OF YOUR CRITICISM, MS? OR HAVE YOU PERHAPS BARKED UP THE WRONG TREE? I GUESS YOU KNOW MORE THAN THEY DO...

Studies of skinfold thickness in Eskimo adults have given means below those of Euro-Americans (Elsner, 1963; Shephard, Hatcher & Rose, 1973; Shephard, 1974), though the work of Jamison & Zegura, 1970, show that skinfolds of adult males are comparable to US males. Those of females are considerably greater. The authors state that while the adult males remained lean and muscular, the women became quite fat. During childhood, however, the subcutaneous fat in females was not great. It only increased around 12 years at about the time of adolescence. Reports of small skinfolds caused considerable surprise because it had been expected that Eskimos would have a high percentage of body fat as protection against the cold (Newman, 1956), and as a result of their extremely high fat diet (Ho et al., 1972). The possibility that body fat could have a different distribution in Eskimos than in Europeans and total fat not be closely related to subcutaneous fat as measured by skinfolds, has been examined by determination of total body water. Higher percentages of body fat were indeed shown than would be predicted from using the European regression of body fat on skinfold (Shephard et al., 1973). Even so the levels were no higher than those of many American college students."

THAT STUDY IS OUTDATED. PEOPLE IN THE U.S. ARE MUCH FATTER NOW THAN THEY WERE 30 YEARS AGO, MS. FUNNY, THIS INCREASE IN OBESITY FOLLOWS THE INCREASING TREND FOR DIETS LOW IN FAT AND HIGH IN CARBS. ALSO, ESKIMO DIETS MAY HAVE YIELDED A BF% COMPARABLE WITH U.S. MALES IN COLLEGE THIRTY YEARS AGO, BUT THE AVERAGE US MALE IS MUCH MORE FAT THAN THE AVERAGE COLLEGE MALE, EVEN MORE SO TODAY. CONCLUSION, ESKIMOS ARE MORE LEAN THAN PEOPLE WHO FOLLOW HIGH CARB, LOW FAT DIETS. JUST LIKE I SAID.

YOU'RE POINT ABOUT FEMALE PHYSIOLOGY BEING DIFFERENT IS WELL TAKEN. HOWEVER, I KNOW SEVERAL WOMEN WHO HAVE LOST A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT OF WEIGHT AND SEVERAL MORE WHO STAY LEAN AND MUSCULAR FOLLOWING THE LOW CARB DIET. JUST BECAUSE YOU SUFFERED FROM DEPRESSION WHEN YOU TRIED THE KETO DIET DOESN'T MEAN IT DOESN'T WORK.

LAST, YOUR POINT ABOUT MEAT PRODUCTION BEING HARMFUL FOR THE ENVIRONMENT IS GOOD, BUT SO IS DRIVING CARS, FLYING IN PLANES, CLEANING YOUR TOILET, ETC., AND THAT STILL DOESN'T MEAN HIGH CARB DIETS DON'T MAKE YOU FAT!

INSULIN, AS SEEN IN ADULT ONSET DIABETICS, IS THE CAUSE OF OBESITY, HEART DISEASE, STROKE, ARTERIOLOSCLEROSIS, ETC. THE ONLY WAY TO CONTROL INSULIN IS TO LOWER YOUR INTAKE OF CARBS. LESS INSULIN = LESS FAT GAIN

 

[MS]

Your points about the research being outdated are well taken, but in the 70's when the studies were done non-eskimo Americans were still eating significant amounts of carbs. I also do not "know more than 2 prominent cardiologists" who wrote the book, I am just naturally suspicious of any book which is trying to sell the public on a particular diet. There is no doubt in my mind that the evidence they present will be biased in support of their diet. You don't sell many diet books by saying "this is just one of many effective ways to lose fat and protect your heart. For alternative diets refer to........". Obviously I haven't read the book, so I apologize to the authors if I have misread their intentions.

As I said before, I am not disagreeing with the obvious benefits of very low carb dieting for many people, I just don't go in for evangelism, or anyone who says this is THE way to live. I also recognize that controlling insulin levels is critical to long term health and chronic disease prevention. Insulin control can also be achieved by adherence to a largely plant-based diet with whole grains, nuts, legumes and vegetables, as well as meat. The avoidance of processed foods, especially carbs, is critical here IMHO. So yes, an extreme diet will work, but so will a balanced, more moderate diet. Which one is easier to stick to or is more effective depends on the individual.

I only gave my personal experience of CKD to let trying2tone know that I had a problem similar to what she was asking about. It is not my only experience with keto diets as I have clients on it right now doing very well thank you. I have had more clients (almost entirely female) who did poorly on it. And I have asked honestly and openly both on this board and on the diet board for FEMALES to come forward and rave about the diet. I have only ever received positive responses from males so far (and all evangelical). This is not science, just observation. There are no doubt females out there with great keto success stories, but to me they seem to be in the minority. Or they're not admitting to it.

Finally, I cannot get out of my mind the 2 most prominent names in low-carb (CKD) dieting around. Lyle McDonald and Elzi Vokl. I was a little stunned when I finally saw photos of these 2 folks after following CKD for cutting and bulking. Lyle could have put on more muscle and less fat by just eating normally and training hard in my opinion. And Elzi, well, kudos to her for competing and using a CKD (and posting her photos), but I would not have gotten on a stage with that much fat still clinging to my butt and thighs. I say that as someone probably too critical, but that women was mean and lean on her upper body, she just couldn't lose that estrogenic lower body fat even with all her yohimbine and keto knowledge.

Anyway, I'm gonna leave this post alone now. It is clearly not productive for me to continue this thread.

Happy ketosis Big J and all you other folks doing well on keto diets. Continued feedback is really important, and I again encourage men, women and children to share their experiences on all types of diets.

 

[keiko]

Just to add my 2cents worth--the most astounding success stories I've heard (esp. on the Usenet low-carb newsgroups, alt.support.diet.low-carb) were from people who had always been heavy, had never really exercised and had yo-yo dieted for years. Low-carb was a revelation to them and woe to anyone who pointed out that their keto diets were not magic, but rather reduced-calorie. Lyle McDonald got flamed like all hell when he posted back in Feb. of this year (shortly thereafter, I discovered this board.). he was pointing out that due to the high protein and fat intake, hunger pangs abated, people felt more satisfied and they ate less. The psychological aspects of a diet that doesn't force the dieter to feel deprived are important, too.

Keto works fine, but it's not magic. If it works for you--great. But, as MS said, there are plenty of other diets that work as well.

 

[Ana]

MS and others go to www.omen.com, click on
Adiposity101.
I've printed out, read and underlined some enlightening
and amazing facts about low carb diets and dieting
in general....what works and WHY it works.

And for the record I'm doing Atkins. I'm not over weight..
I just get good results and no sugar cravings.
I started w/ 20g. of carbs for two weeks. I felt like
DEATH for 8 days(sugar detox), my face broke out, moody, craving sugar of course, lack of strength in the
gym...
By week 3 I felt like I was high (I don't smoke pot),
happy, calm, face cleared, no cravings for anything, no appetite really, But I still ate 'cause I make GOOD lo-carb food.

In the gym I could still lift the same but only 10 reps, not
my usual 15. Cardio fine, no prob., pop an E/C I'm set.

Bathroom break....where was I? Oh yeah you pee all the
time too.

My point is...is that I use this diet in the summer mths. to
specifically lose the blubber in my lower body.
Insulin lays down the fat in this area, not just estrogen.

Funny thing happened when I went into Ketosis...
Since you start burning your own fat for fuel, estrogen
stored in the fat cells were released and it made me
start my cycle a couple days early. So cool how the body works. ALSO, hot flashes like when your going through
menopause right? Well it means LOW ESTROGEN levels.
(21yrs. old)

I think everyone should get into ketosis and stay there
for MORE than a week and you'll see and feel some
incredible results.
Things to look for when in ketosis: Bad breath, hot flashes, energy all day-all night(if U can't sleep,take melatonin), no cravings, no appetite, no depression.
Now if U lo-carb during the week, then carb up your
constantly going to feel like $hit IMHO.
Get into ketosis and stay there.
Learn about this diet, it's amazing.

 

[Temple]

I guess I'm just too attached to my oatmeal and yams. I have never done the keto thing but the craze hit here like everywhere else. Keep in mind that the 20-30 women that I have watched lose tons of weight on this were not doing any weight training at all but what I have observed is that most of them got skinny, skinny,skinny on it but they appeared very flabby. They also aged about 10 years, their faces looked really drawn and unwell. Bad breath is putting it mildly. Then roughly 90% went off the diet and are now OBESE! Not a scientific trial by any means just enough evidence to make me darned leary.

 

[trying2tone]

wow

Well, I didn't think one simple question would cause so much trouble!! And it didn't even have anything to do with my original post ! At any rate, you've just confirmed what I expected...low carbing DOES NOT get rid of lower body fat. I swear my ass is bigger since I started, but then I wonder if it's the high protein combined with rollerblading that's building the muscle. I've heard of SMB (Stair Master Butt) but never thought I'd have one! My abs, though, have really come out, and I've noticed a change in the SHAPE of my ass, but the scale still isn't dropping. DAMN!! This is so frustrating. At any rate, you've raised another question for me re: estrogen levels. I have been on the pill for years, but recently decided to to a continuous cycle for 3 months ( no break in the pills, therefore NO PERIOD!!) Apparently it's safe to do this on a 3 month cycle, and menstruate only 4 times per year. SOOOOO, my question is....Could this be part of the problem for me?? Are my estrogen levels all screwed up because of it and could it be affecting my lack of weight loss? I am having hot flashes like crazy (30 years old), mood swings, lethargy, MAJOR cravings for sweets and Big Macs (lol) and just a general feeling of "The hell with it, I'm doing allright at 30, I have a 5 year old son, I'm 110 pounds, I wear a size 1, and I'm never looking in a mirror again" syndrome. Maybe I'm just too critical of myself. What do you think?