Not eating after lifting

[Lifterforlife]

With each post you are stepping in deeper my friend. Let me type a bit slower, maybe it will sink in.

Glycogen is not the primary reason to spike insulin/blood amino acid levels pwo. The primary reason for the hi gi shake post workout is to shut down cortisol, via insulin. Coritsol is highly catabolic, and insulin is its drirect antagonist. Glycogen repletion will happen somewhat here as a byproduct of doing this.

You have to understand that muscular glycogen synthesis is rate limited in the muscle, so getting stuff in quicker does not make alot of difference.

 

[javaguru]

With each post you are stepping in deeper my friend. Let me type a bit slower, maybe it will sink in.

Glycogen is not the primary reason to spike insulin/blood amino acid levels pwo. The primary reason for the hi gi shake post workout is to shut down cortisol, via insulin. Coritsol is highly catabolic, and insulin is its drirect antagonist. Glycogen repletion will happen somewhat here as a byproduct of doing this.

You have to understand that muscular glycogen synthesis is rate limited in the muscle, so getting stuff in quicker does not make alot of difference.

Supercomposition of glycogen does occur post workout, as pointed out in the study and many others. Type as slow as you want but it doesn't change the facts. As a bodybuilder it may not be your number one reason but it's still advantageous, especially when one engages in multiple training sessions; Such as fasted morning cardio with evening weightliting, a very common protocol.At no point did I say glycogen replenishment was the primary reason for a post workout meal. Likewise, I pointed out there is a substantial glycogen decrease in the muscle being trained, 35% according to the study; That's with nine sets( most bodybuilders do many more sets than this for major muscle groups). If you can point out a flaw in their protocol, blood tests and biopsies are pretty straightforward, then one must accept it as accurate. I would also point out the study was done on trained weightlifters as opposed to many studies, "HMB feels like deca."

 

[EL GAUCHO]

Put your claws away girls.....I think you both have valid points.

 

[Lifterforlife]

Such as fasted morning cardio with evening weightliting, a very common protocol.

Another lesson for you bro.....fasted morning cardio has everything to do with depletion of liver glycogen, not muscle glycogen. FFA are high in the morning due to liver glyogen depletion during a fasted state(sleeping).

This is the whole rationale about doing fasted state cardio first thing in the morning.

Keep at it bro, ask away, I will be glad to teach you.

 

[javaguru]

Whoa....you are depleting muscle glycogen if you're working the muscle; Post some studies.

 

[Lifterforlife]

Whoa....you are depleting muscle glycogen if you're working the muscle; Post some studies.

You mentioned fasted state cardio, and that is what I replied with this post. Muscle glycogen is use dependent. Liver glycogen is used to dump when needed, and at night in a fasted state, it does this in a slow release.


I am sure you have heard of fructose taking a non insulin dependent pathway, right? It instead tops off liver glycogn, which is stored for later use. This is why many say it is not optimal for pwo. Well, guess what that later use is?( I should add here that it dumps glycogen when needed other times also, but fasted state is one of those, and this happens nightly)

The liver depletes glycogen overnight while you are in a fasted state.
It does so to maintain normal blood glucose levels. Muscle glucose can only be used directly. (repeating myself here, but to get the point across)

It is well known that overnight fasting favors glycogenolysis


Free fatty acids are an important source of fuel for many tissues since they can yield relatively large quantities of ATP. Many cell types can use either glucose or fatty acids for this purpose. However, heart and skeletal muscle prefer fatty acids. On the other hand, the brain cannot use fatty acids as a source of fuel, relying instead on glucose, or on ketone bodies produced by the liver from fatty acid metabolism during starvation, or periods of low carbohydrate intake. (see overnight fasted state!)

This is the reason FFA are higher in the morning. As soon as we eat something, FFA take off. The body is an intricate machine.

 

[Lifterforlife]

Supercomposition of glycogen does occur post workout, as pointed out in the study and many others. Type as slow as you want but it doesn't change the facts.

As far as this discussion goes, this fact was never debated. But as pointed out, it is not the primary reason for hi gi, this is to shut down cortisol which is highly catabolic via insulin, its antagonist.

Following exercise, muscle cells are especially sensitive to the multiple anabolic effects of insulin. Insulin increases net muscle protein by increasing amino acid transport into the muscle cell, by increasing protein synthesis and by reducing protein breakdown. Cortisol is going to be blunted. This is shown by Ivy and Portman study, as well as numerous others. As well as enhanced glycogen uptake. But again, this is rate dependent.

The reason glycogen replenishment takes a back seat to this is the whole crux of the discussion. Muscle glycogen is going to be replenished, no matter what(unless you in such an extreme diet, like pre contest glycogen depletion). You cannot do this in one drink...remember my post that got skimmed over that glycogen is rate dependent?

You can only push in carbs so far(hi or low gi) beyond some amount, and it doesn't make any difference. You are limited by digestion. At some point, digestive system is overwhelmed, and you have spillover.

The way a normal bodybuilder eats will refill any lost glycogen with no problem. It is really easy to get our glycogen levels back up, and timing is generally not an issue. Even if you are a low carb person, or take an extreme example of no carbs, the body is smart and it will convert protein to glycogen if needed. Ever hear the term, carbs are protein sparing? This is precisely why. Adequate carbs will allow protein for other needs, hopefully for building muscle!

Again, unless you are an endurance athlete, glycogen depletion is not that great under a normal workout. Again, I repeat, having done it many times, glycogen depletion of any substantial amount is pretty difficult to do. We practice this in last week competition dieting, it is tough, already carb depleted, doing days(usually 3 of balls to the wall workouts, added cardio to deplete).

And then we get to replenishment. Again, it is rate dependent. If not, we could theoretically pre comp glycogen loading do it in one sitting by jamming a ton of glucose(carbs) in at one time. In fact, we have to slowly add glucose over 2-3 days to keep from spillover(digestive system will be overwhelmed, and you will lose most cuts and look pudgy).

As a bodybuilder it may not be your number one reason but it's still advantageous, especially when one engages in multiple training sessions;

Yes it becomes more of a factor if 2 a days for instance are done, and heavy hard workouts. But again, even if 2 a day, if the workout is say 14-16 sets for a bodypart, you will obviously not use tremendous amounts of glycogen. There isn't significant glycogen depletion like in longer workouts.

 

[javaguru]

You mentioned fasted state cardio, and that is what I replied with this post. Muscle glycogen is use dependent. Liver glycogen is used to dump when needed, and at night in a fasted state, it does this in a slow release.


I am sure you have heard of fructose taking a non insulin dependent pathway, right? It instead tops off liver glycogn, which is stored for later use. This is why many say it is not optimal for pwo. Well, guess what that later use is?( I should add here that it dumps glycogen when needed other times also, but fasted state is one of those, and this happens nightly)

The liver depletes glycogen overnight while you are in a fasted state.
It does so to maintain normal blood glucose levels. Muscle glucose can only be used directly. (repeating myself here, but to get the point across)

It is well known that overnight fasting favors glycogenolysis


Free fatty acids are an important source of fuel for many tissues since they can yield relatively large quantities of ATP. Many cell types can use either glucose or fatty acids for this purpose. However, heart and skeletal muscle prefer fatty acids. On the other hand, the brain cannot use fatty acids as a source of fuel, relying instead on glucose, or on ketone bodies produced by the liver from fatty acid metabolism during starvation, or periods of low carbohydrate intake. (see overnight fasted state!)

This is the reason FFA are higher in the morning. As soon as we eat something, FFA take off. The body is an intricate machine.

I have previous posts addressing issues you raised and I'm in agreement. Which brings up one of my own theories which I can't support with direct evidence but have had tremendous success anecdotally. I believe liver glycogen stores are important to maintain while dieting, which is why I never eliminate fruit; I feel it is a marker of "non starvation." That's why I advocate consuming moderate amounts of fructose, I've read where it's claimed the human body can actually store up to 200g of liver glycogen, so overconsumption of fruit isn't a major concern. I'm more concerned with overall CHO consumption, quality and its timing.

 

[javaguru]

As far as this discussion goes, this fact was never debated. But as pointed out, it is not the primary reason for hi gi, this is to shut down cortisol which is highly catabolic via insulin, its antagonist.

Following exercise, muscle cells are especially sensitive to the multiple anabolic effects of insulin. Insulin increases net muscle protein by increasing amino acid transport into the muscle cell, by increasing protein synthesis and by reducing protein breakdown. Cortisol is going to be blunted. This is shown by Ivy and Portman study, as well as numerous others. As well as enhanced glycogen uptake. But again, this is rate dependent.

The reason glycogen replenishment takes a back seat to this is the whole crux of the discussion. Muscle glycogen is going to be replenished, no matter what(unless you in such an extreme diet, like pre contest glycogen depletion). You cannot do this in one drink...remember my post that got skimmed over that glycogen is rate dependent?

You can only push in carbs so far(hi or low gi) beyond some amount, and it doesn't make any difference. You are limited by digestion. At some point, digestive system is overwhelmed, and you have spillover.

The way a normal bodybuilder eats will refill any lost glycogen with no problem. It is really easy to get our glycogen levels back up, and timing is generally not an issue. Even if you are a low carb person, or take an extreme example of no carbs, the body is smart and it will convert protein to glycogen if needed. Ever hear the term, carbs are protein sparing? This is precisely why. Adequate carbs will allow protein for other needs, hopefully for building muscle!

Again, unless you are an endurance athlete, glycogen depletion is not that great under a normal workout. Again, I repeat, having done it many times, glycogen depletion of any substantial amount is pretty difficult to do. We practice this in last week competition dieting, it is tough, already carb depleted, doing days(usually 3 of balls to the wall workouts, added cardio to deplete).

And then we get to replenishment. Again, it is rate dependent. If not, we could theoretically pre comp glycogen loading do it in one sitting by jamming a ton of glucose(carbs) in at one time. In fact, we have to slowly add glucose over 2-3 days to keep from spillover(digestive system will be overwhelmed, and you will lose most cuts and look pudgy).




Yes it becomes more of a factor if 2 a days for instance are done, and heavy hard workouts. But again, even if 2 a day, if the workout is say 14-16 sets for a bodypart, you will obviously not use tremendous amounts of glycogen. There isn't significant glycogen depletion like in longer workouts.

I never argued glycogen replenishment was of primary importance for a bodybuilder post workout, only it's advantageous, particularly under multiple training session protocol. It's a marker of recovery for everyone engaged in competitive athletics. My protocol involves 80% of your carbs around your workouts, shakes should all be under 10% concentration; For rapid absorption and has the side effect of ensuring adequate hydration. That means a workout shake which blunts depletion, one immediate post workout and a "normal" meal an hour post workout. This also has the advantage of maintaining elevated insulin over several hours. The study showed nine sets depleted muscle glycogen in the muscle trained by over a third, which is substantial considering the popular splits of most bodybuilders(12-30 sets per bodypart are not uncommon). IMO, the faster you're "recovered" the better.

 

[Lifterforlife]

I never argued glycogen replenishment was of primary importance for a bodybuilder post workout, only it's advantageous, particularly under multiple training session protocol. It's a marker of recovery for everyone engaged in competitive athletics.

Thank you for agreeing with me once again.

My protocol involves 80% of your carbs around your workouts, shakes should all be under 10% concentration; For rapid absorption and has the side effect of ensuring adequate hydration.

How long did you search to find that old "conventional wisdom"? This was what was thought at one time , but those of us who keep in the forefront know that cellular hydration to the extent that we get with creatine supplementation for instance has little effect on muscle protein synthesis or breakdown in healthy men or women (Louis et al., 2003).

That means a workout shake which blunts depletion, one immediate post workout and a "normal" meal an hour post workout. This also has the advantage of maintaining elevated insulin over several hours. The study showed nine sets depleted muscle glycogen in the muscle trained by over a third, which is substantial considering the popular splits of most bodybuilders(12-30 sets per bodypart are not uncommon). IMO, the faster you're "recovered" the better.

Duh! The faster you recover, the better? Geez, who would ever think that! Again you are but repeating what I have been saying. This is nothing new, anyone who reads this thread will already know this. The only part you are leaving out is that while true, some glycogen is depleted, replenishment is still rate dependent. Yes, it is super compensation time at pwo, and insulin sensitivity is indeed increased, but this simply means that you can jack a bit more glycogen in the muscle at this time than normal, but still even that is limited. Why do you think that studies all say that by doing this or that, or supplement companies touting a supplement tout that you can get 10% more glycogen uptake or something? They are saying 10% more than normal

It took you a long time to search and piece some stuff together, which is mostly correct by the way, but you could have easily gotten by simply reading my prior posts.

I think at this point it would be easier for me to mentally bend a spoon.