Not eating after lifting

[royale13ii]

Is eating IMMEDIATELY after a workout always a must for gaining or maintaining size? 90% of the time I do just that but lately, I wait about 1-2 hours for my friend to go to lunch. I'm just wondering how the body reacts right after a lifting session...


Also, the importance of multivitamins...does anyone take it directly after a workout, or does the time of consumption actually matter?


thx

 

[BOWTECH]

You need to eat within 1 hr after lifting. This is the most beneficial. Even if you can't eat a meal try to get a protein shake with some fruit or something similiar. Very important.... 2 hrs is waaaaaaaaaay to long to wait

 

[jc1908]

most of the time i can't make out of the locker room without at least a PB sandwich on my mouth, if i don't have whole food, i try to have a shake handy.

 

[javaguru]

One hour is the "magic window" and every hour after that it decreases. I would down a whey and dextrose/maltodextrin shake during or immediately after your workout and have a "normal" meal an hour later; It really does wonders for recovery.

 

[lacoste]

A whey shake will be digested by the time you eat lunch with your friend so dont wait, down that thing right away, and you'll be ready to smash down some food.

 

[Lifterforlife]

I am not sure where the 1 hr. window came from, but I do believe it optimal to get some fast acting protein with equally fast carbs soon after a workout. In fact, I believe another one about 40 minutes later may be just as potent.

While it is true that it is what you do over weeks, months, years that add up to gains, you may be able to expediate the process with optimally timed protein/amino acid shakes. In fact, I found this study that may even relate this more.....
this study seems to indicate that amino acids are uptaken better. Post workout is probably an even more ideal time.

Recently, researchers from the University of Texas examined the effects of ingesting a carbohydrate (30g) and amino acid supplement (15g of essential amino acids) (CAA) or a meal on protein synthesis. Thirteen men ages 28 to 48 years of age where randomly into two tow treatment groups: 1) CAA= 36+OR- 10 years and 2)Control 38 + or -8 year. The CAA and meal was designed to be similar in amino acid content and were administered perodically throughout the day blood and muscle tissue was samples were collected in order to assess anabolism. The inclusion of a CAA supplement into a normal diet resulted in a greater anabolic stimulus as the meal treatment indicated by the 25% increase in protein synthesis rate. Additionally, the consumption of only meals throughout the 16 hour study period resulted in a negative net protein balance, while adding frequent CAA supplements resulted in a positive balance. The researchers suggested that the CAA supplement was more effective in maximizing protein synthesis rates as result of the speed with which the supplement is digested and taken up into the system. Based upon these findings it may be recommended for athletes consume some sort of CAA supplement throughout the day in order to maximize the muscular adaptations to their training regimes and maintain a positive protein balance.

This study on the surface seems to favor amino acids over whole food, but this is just the abstract. I would venture to interpret it more as an amino acid supplement taken with your meals would be more anabolic. Makes comon sense....add 2 protein shakes per day for instance on top of your meals, and you are typically adding at least 40 gr. of protein assuming one scoop per shake. This in fact would seem to have to sway the nitrogen balance more positive.

 

[John WB]

So two shakes?

1 immediately after a workout, then another 40 minutes after that?

what in the drinks?

 

[Lifterforlife]

So two shakes?

1 immediately after a workout, then another 40 minutes after that?

what in the drinks?

You do not need to do this, most folks do one.

But my research leads me to believe that a second shake is just as anabolic if not moreso than the first one.

 

[John WB]

So it's adviseable?

When would you have the pwo meal if you did this? How long after the 2nd PWO shake?

 

[Lifterforlife]

So it's adviseable?

When would you have the pwo meal if you did this? How long after the 2nd PWO shake?

I have mine about 45 min.-1hr. after my second shake. My shake consists of a high grade hydrolosate blend with high grade isolate. I usually go 70/30 in my blend, any over that and the taste gets hard. I have added BCAA's also in my shakes.

You can't go much over 30% hydrolosate, as it would be very difficult to drink. In fact, downright nasty. This is another marketing scheme of some protein manufacturer's. If you ever see one touting 100% hydrolosate or something along those lines, this is simply advertising.

What this actually means and by law they can do it is that 100% of the hydrolosate that is in the protein batch is hydrolosate. This might in fact be 2% of the entire protein batch for instance.

 

[RamRom]

i have mine right after workout with gatorade and an hour after i have full meal

 

[UFC22]

It takes about 20 min for the body to absorb the whey i believe and the window is 30min. There was jsut a post about this not to long ago. The problem about not taking in a shake or simple carbs after a workout and jsut going straight into a meal is that whatever you are eating say chick, turkey, or steak will take around 2 hours for the body to absorb. What you need to do is get your ass out of the gym after your wokout, quit talkin to people, run your ass home or wherrever you can get a shake and other essentials. lol.
For me its easy my gym is literally across the street from me.

 

[digimon7068]

Carbs within 45 mins, protien within 90 mins always seems to work well for me. However, February through May, three or four times per week I do cardio in the AM on an empty stomach and don't eat for an hour afterward to stoke up the fat-burner.

 

[Lifterforlife]

Interesting to read these posts. Just shows my point, find what works for you. There really is no cut and dry way, and no big science that says you have to do things a certain way.

Many bodybuilder friends of mine use no sugars at all, do protein and oats. They still make gains. It is all about what works for you.

Some folks shout and scream about some "studies" and "science", and this is all well and good.

Makes me wonder how those guys back in the 60's,70's, even 80's on ever built great physiques without knowing all this stuff! Guys like Bill Pearl, Steve Reeves, etc., some of the best physiques ever.

 

[javaguru]

I am not sure where the 1 hr. window came from, but I do believe it optimal to get some fast acting protein with equally fast carbs soon after a workout. In fact, I believe another one about 40 minutes later may be just as potent.

While it is true that it is what you do over weeks, months, years that add up to gains, you may be able to expediate the process with optimally timed protein/amino acid shakes. In fact, I found this study that may even relate this more.....
this study seems to indicate that amino acids are uptaken better. Post workout is probably an even more ideal time.

Recently, researchers from the University of Texas examined the effects of ingesting a carbohydrate (30g) and amino acid supplement (15g of essential amino acids) (CAA) or a meal on protein synthesis. Thirteen men ages 28 to 48 years of age where randomly into two tow treatment groups: 1) CAA= 36+OR- 10 years and 2)Control 38 + or -8 year. The CAA and meal was designed to be similar in amino acid content and were administered perodically throughout the day blood and muscle tissue was samples were collected in order to assess anabolism. The inclusion of a CAA supplement into a normal diet resulted in a greater anabolic stimulus as the meal treatment indicated by the 25% increase in protein synthesis rate. Additionally, the consumption of only meals throughout the 16 hour study period resulted in a negative net protein balance, while adding frequent CAA supplements resulted in a positive balance. The researchers suggested that the CAA supplement was more effective in maximizing protein synthesis rates as result of the speed with which the supplement is digested and taken up into the system. Based upon these findings it may be recommended for athletes consume some sort of CAA supplement throughout the day in order to maximize the muscular adaptations to their training regimes and maintain a positive protein balance.

This study on the surface seems to favor amino acids over whole food, but this is just the abstract. I would venture to interpret it more as an amino acid supplement taken with your meals would be more anabolic. Makes comon sense....add 2 protein shakes per day for instance on top of your meals, and you are typically adding at least 40 gr. of protein assuming one scoop per shake. This in fact would seem to have to sway the nitrogen balance more positive.

I believe this is the citation used to support the one hour window;
Journal of Applied Physiology; 88, 386-392, 2000.

 

[Lifterforlife]

I believe this is the citation used to support the one hour window;
Journal of Applied Physiology; 88, 386-392, 2000.

Can you post it? One study hardly makes a scientific certainty, but I would still love to read it.

If you can't, I will look it up when I get home.

On a work computer, don't have much time right now.

 

[javaguru]

Interesting to read these posts. Just shows my point, find what works for you. There really is no cut and dry way, and no big science that says you have to do things a certain way.

Many bodybuilder friends of mine use no sugars at all, do protein and oats. They still make gains. It is all about what works for you.

Some folks shout and scream about some "studies" and "science", and this is all well and good.

Makes me wonder how those guys back in the 60's,70's, even 80's on ever built great physiques without knowing all this stuff! Guys like Bill Pearl, Steve Reeves, etc., some of the best physiques ever.

Well, thee are numerous studies claiming no athletic benefit from AAS's for athletes. Which we all know is BS....remember there was a study claiming half of published studies are BS..based on sample quantity. That's why we work with anecdotal evidence a lot. Yes, It's flawed but does hold some advantages.

 

[Lifterforlife]

Well, thee are numerous studies claiming no athletic benefit from AAS's for athletes. Which we all know is BS....remember there was a study claiming half of published studies are BS..based on sample quantity. That's why we work with anecdotal evidence a lot. Yes, It's flawed but does hold some advantages.

Thanks for agreeing with me.

 

[Lifterforlife]

Ok, here is the study you cited....seems some discrepency in the 1 hr. window. Kind of a leap saying only one hour when the study cites one or 3 hr. Hardly a definitive study to base a whole protocol of 1 hr. window.

Read similar anabolic responses at 1 or 3 h

Not to mention the study was done with all of 6 people, hardly quantifiable evidence.

J Appl Physiol 88: 386-392, 2000;

PubMed

PubMed Citation
Articles by Rasmussen, B. B.
Articles by Wolfe, R. R.

Vol. 88, Issue 2, 386-392, February 2000

An oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement enhances muscle protein anabolism after resistance exercise
Blake B. Rasmussen, Kevin D. Tipton, Sharon L. Miller, Steven E. Wolf, and Robert R. Wolfe
Department of Surgery, University of Texas Medical Branch and Metabolism Unit, Shriners Burns Institute, Galveston, Texas 77550

This study was designed to determine the response of muscle protein to the bolus ingestion of a drink containing essential amino acids and carbohydrate after resistance exercise. Six subjects (3 men, 3 women) randomly consumed a treatment drink (6 g essential amino acids, 35 g sucrose) or a flavored placebo drink 1 h or 3 h after a bout of resistance exercise on two separate occasions. We used a three-compartment model for determination of leg muscle protein kinetics. The model involves the infusion of ring-2H5-phenylalanine, femoral arterial and venous blood sampling, and muscle biopsies. Phenylalanine net balance and muscle protein synthesis were significantly increased above the predrink and corresponding placebo value (P < 0.05) when the drink was taken 1 or 3 h after exercise but not when the placebo was ingested at 1 or 3 h. The response to the amino acid-carbohydrate drink produced similar anabolic responses at 1 and 3 h. Muscle protein breakdown did not change in response to the drink. We conclude that essential amino acids with carbohydrates stimulate muscle protein anabolism by increasing muscle protein synthesis when ingested 1 or 3 h after resistance exercise.

muscle protein synthesis; stable isotopes; nutritional supplementation

 

[Lifterforlife]

If I may proceed with this "window" discussion...not trying here to prove anyone right or wrong, because actually, there really may be no right or wrong.

The beauty of what we do is what works for one may not necessarily work the same for another.

Remember folks, bodybuilding is not a team sport. It is in fact very individualistic.

With that said....here is some more reading

Tipton and colleagues (2003) examined responsiveness of protein synthesis for a day after a workout, and found it to reflect a 24 hour enhanced level. That’s right folks, a FULL DAY! This means that having a morning shake will have the same impact on muscle protein synthesis as one consumed following the workout!

These results shouldn’t be too surprising because we’ve known for over a decade that postworkout protein synthesis is jacked up for this long (MacDougall et al., 1995), but if you’re discovering this for the first time, then it’s pretty exciting!

Some research suggests that even 48 hours after the workout our protein synthesis levels can be elevated by ~33% (Phillips et al., 1997), giving us an even longer period during which we can maximize our muscle growth with protein drinks.

 

[javaguru]

I think it's fair to conclude that sooner is better than later. Although the study didn't find a statistcally significant difference between one hour and three you are still reversing the negative protein balance caused by an intense workout and restoring muscle glycogen as soon as possible. Blunting protein degradation is also a reason I use a workout shake. I typically advise people to have a shake immediately post workout and then a "normal" bodybulding meal an hour later. In this way you're taking full advanatge of your post workout window and it allows time for the food from the second meal to digest. I've found this protocol imperative if you're going to train intensely five or six days a week.

Ok, here is the study you cited....seems some discrepency in the 1 hr. window. Kind of a leap saying only one hour when the study cites one or 3 hr. Hardly a definitive study to base a whole protocol of 1 hr. window.

Read similar anabolic responses at 1 or 3 h

Not to mention the study was done with all of 6 people, hardly quantifiable evidence.

J Appl Physiol 88: 386-392, 2000;

PubMed

PubMed Citation
Articles by Rasmussen, B. B.
Articles by Wolfe, R. R.

Vol. 88, Issue 2, 386-392, February 2000

An oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement enhances muscle protein anabolism after resistance exercise
Blake B. Rasmussen, Kevin D. Tipton, Sharon L. Miller, Steven E. Wolf, and Robert R. Wolfe
Department of Surgery, University of Texas Medical Branch and Metabolism Unit, Shriners Burns Institute, Galveston, Texas 77550

This study was designed to determine the response of muscle protein to the bolus ingestion of a drink containing essential amino acids and carbohydrate after resistance exercise. Six subjects (3 men, 3 women) randomly consumed a treatment drink (6 g essential amino acids, 35 g sucrose) or a flavored placebo drink 1 h or 3 h after a bout of resistance exercise on two separate occasions. We used a three-compartment model for determination of leg muscle protein kinetics. The model involves the infusion of ring-2H5-phenylalanine, femoral arterial and venous blood sampling, and muscle biopsies. Phenylalanine net balance and muscle protein synthesis were significantly increased above the predrink and corresponding placebo value (P < 0.05) when the drink was taken 1 or 3 h after exercise but not when the placebo was ingested at 1 or 3 h. The response to the amino acid-carbohydrate drink produced similar anabolic responses at 1 and 3 h. Muscle protein breakdown did not change in response to the drink. We conclude that essential amino acids with carbohydrates stimulate muscle protein anabolism by increasing muscle protein synthesis when ingested 1 or 3 h after resistance exercise.

muscle protein synthesis; stable isotopes; nutritional supplementation

 

[Lifterforlife]

I think it's fair to conclude that sooner is better than later. Although the study didn't find a statistcally significant difference between one hour and three you are still reversing the negative protein balance caused by an intense workout and restoring muscle glycogen as soon as possible. Blunting protein degradation is also a reason I use a workout shake. I typically advise people to have a shake immediately post workout and then a "normal" bodybulding meal an hour later. In this way you're taking full advanatge of your post workout window and it allows time for the food from the second meal to digest. I've found this protocol imperative if you're going to train intensely five or six days a week.

You make valid points....for the astute who have followed this thread will note that I in fact use 2 protein shakes immediately post workout. So, I obviously believe sooner the better.

I just simply was playing devils advocate. For instance, back in the "old days" when I first started doing this stuff, we worked out at the only game in town. Black iron gym, no cardio equipment. Top powerlifters and competitive atheletes worked out there, as well as many of our pro football team members.

Our supplements in those days were crap like Hoffman Milk and egg, wieder milk and egg, club sandwiches, then Hot Stuff came out, and followed by Anabolic Activator, and on and on. Creatiine was not even on the market.
Anyhow, guess what we did after working out?? Got home as fast as we could, cooked up a 1/2 lb. of ground round, had a plate of pasta with it. In other words, we ate, and ate large amounts of food. Milk and egg protein was hardly a fast digesting protein. Did we gain? Sure did. Had some pretty dam big guys in that gym.

I simply do not buy the fact that you have to have a protein drink within 18.2 minutes, and drink it for 6.9 minutes, or all your gains will be null and void. Most all of those studies that began this pwo protocol began with endurance athletes replacing glycogen. As strength athletes, this is of no concern to us, unless contest training, last week. I know just how hard it is to deplete glycogen, it in fact is very difficult. We work extremely hard at it to load prior to contest day.

Again, no dispute here, I have used some of the same arguments as you did in your post in the past. I do myself believe the sooner you can get some nourishment in you of some sort, the more anabolic you will become. ONly makes sense. But, all your gains will not be null and void if you are outside this "hour window".

 

[javaguru]

Here is another good study on trained weightlifters;
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/84/3/890

 

[Lifterforlife]

Here is another good study on trained weightlifters;
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/84/3/890

I could post you to lots of these. My point is immediate glycogen replacement is not an issue with strength athletes. Think about it, do a set which lasts all of 20 seconds, rest 2-3 minutes, do another set. How is glycogen being depleted in this manner?

If glycogen was depleted this easily, we would all have issues.

We take our pwo shake with simple sugars for enhanced uptake of protein, via insulin. Not muscle glycogen.

Now, if contest training, this is totally different. I know a thing or two about depleting muscle gycogen. I have competed in 12 contests. The last week, this is something that we do, it takes at least 3 days of balls to the wall workouts, no rest, very low carb (basically only veggies), and still not sure if you timed it right for supercompensation. You want to look very flat, if you did this,then you probably succeeded.

 

[javaguru]

I could post you to lots of these. My point is immediate glycogen replacement is not an issue with strength athletes. Think about it, do a set which lasts all of 20 seconds, rest 2-3 minutes, do another set. How is glycogen being depleted in this manner?

If glycogen was depleted this easily, we would all have issues.

We take our pwo shake with simple sugars for enhanced uptake of protein, via insulin. Not muscle glycogen.

Now, if contest training, this is totally different. I know a thing or two about depleting muscle gycogen. I have competed in 12 contests. The last week, this is something that we do, it takes at least 3 days of balls to the wall workouts, no rest, very low carb (basically only veggies), and still not sure if you timed it right for supercompensation. You want to look very flat, if you did this,then you probably succeeded.

The study found a 36% decrease in muscle glycogen from three sets of three different exercises for nine total sets; This is a fairly substantial decrease. Likewise, anytime one is engaging in multiple training sessions in a day, morning cardio and evening weight training for example, it becomes important. Of course I'm speaking in the context of "normal" training and not during specific periods, like attempting super compensation before an event.

 

[Lifterforlife]

Fine...I will make one more post on the subject, and let you have the last word which I have no doubt of. I am not here to be confrontational, on the contrary, to try to enighten and educate as best I can.

Saying that, I hope folks will read through these posts, as there is alot of good info that got left out of replies, that may indeed be valuable information to the astute Elite Fitness member.

That being said, here is my final word......

The most common argument is that the subsequent cellular hydration and swelling will have an anticatabolic effect on muscle. I don’t believe that this is possible because cellular hydration to the extent that we get with creatine supplementation has little effect on muscle protein synthesis or breakdown in healthy men or women (Louis et al., 2003).

Then there’s the suggestion that if we don’t replenish post exercise glycogen right away, we’ll miss a window of opportunity to do so. This is largely hyperbole, exploded from bits and pieces of endurance training studies, and a perfect example of the telephone game effect.

Surprisingly, one study showed that consuming carbohydrates after strength training only increased muscle glycogen by 16% more than when water was consumed (Pascoe et al., 1993)! With this information and the huge amount of carbs that we consume on a daily basis, we should have little doubt that glycogen levels will be maximized within 24 hours of the workout.

Now these may be irrelevant points, because in the effort of keeping our focus where it ought to lie—on maximizing protein synthesis— we’re going to quickly stimulate our glycogen restoration anyway. This is because we consume rapidly absorbed carbohydrates along with our protein and amino acids, which has been shown to enhance muscle protein anabolism (Rasmussen et al., 2000).

In other words, muscle glycogen will be restored whether we make it a priority or not. This way, even those who can’t escape the dogma of having to rapidly restore glycogen get their fix, while at the same time, unknowingly assisting with muscle protein recovery.

****oh, by the way, interpreting the study correctly might just help. It would be improbable to deplete 36% total muscle glycogen from 9 total sets.

Read the study, it was approximately 36% of the muscle exercised, the leg, not whole muscle glycogen. Here is the text....

This amounted to an average decrease of ~36% in muscle glycogen in the vastus lateralis [comparing postexercise glycogen on all 3 conditions vs. postexercise glycogen in Pl-Con (nonexercised leg)].

And I would venture to guess that even that figure is high, according to other studies

And, if you notice, it says p/c/f, all 3 had basically the same effect.....

Significantly higher baseline plasma glucose concentrations were observed for both the CHO/Pro/fat and CHO trials (P < 0.05). In all three conditions, exercise resulted in slightly (nonsignificant) higher plasma glucose (Fig. 3A). Consumption of CHO/Pro/fat resulted in significantly greater glucose at 20, 40, 80, 100, 120, 140, and 160 min postexercise compared with the Pl condition (P < 0.01; Fig. 3A). The CHO trial resulted in a similar glucose response to the CHO/Pro/fat trial, with significant increases at 20, 40, 60, 100, 120, and 140 min postexercise vs. the Pl condition (P < 0.01; Fig. 3A). The area under the glucose curve was not significantly different between the CHO/Pro/fat and CHO conditions (CHO/Pro/fat = 5.87 ± 0.27 mM/h and CHO = 5.59 ± 0.35 mM/h), but these were greater compared with Pl (P < 0.01; Fig. 4A).



.

 

[javaguru]

Fine...I will make one more post on the subject, and let you have the last word which I have no doubt of. I am not here to be confrontational, on the contrary, to try to enighten and educate as best I can.

Saying that, I hope folks will read through these posts, as there is alot of good info that got left out of replies, that may indeed be valuable information to the astute Elite Fitness member.

That being said, here is my final word......

The most common argument is that the subsequent cellular hydration and swelling will have an anticatabolic effect on muscle. I don’t believe that this is possible because cellular hydration to the extent that we get with creatine supplementation has little effect on muscle protein synthesis or breakdown in healthy men or women (Louis et al., 2003).

Then there’s the suggestion that if we don’t replenish post exercise glycogen right away, we’ll miss a window of opportunity to do so. This is largely hyperbole, exploded from bits and pieces of endurance training studies, and a perfect example of the telephone game effect.

Surprisingly, one study showed that consuming carbohydrates after strength training only increased muscle glycogen by 16% more than when water was consumed (Pascoe et al., 1993)! With this information and the huge amount of carbs that we consume on a daily basis, we should have little doubt that glycogen levels will be maximized within 24 hours of the workout.

Now these may be irrelevant points, because in the effort of keeping our focus where it ought to lie—on maximizing protein synthesis— we’re going to quickly stimulate our glycogen restoration anyway. This is because we consume rapidly absorbed carbohydrates along with our protein and amino acids, which has been shown to enhance muscle protein anabolism (Rasmussen et al., 2000).

In other words, muscle glycogen will be restored whether we make it a priority or not. This way, even those who can’t escape the dogma of having to rapidly restore glycogen get their fix, while at the same time, unknowingly assisting with muscle protein recovery.

****oh, by the way, interpreting the study correctly might just help. It would be improbable to deplete 36% total muscle glycogen from 9 total sets.

Read the study, it was approximately 36% of the muscle exercised, the leg, not whole muscle glycogen. Here is the text....

This amounted to an average decrease of ~36% in muscle glycogen in the vastus lateralis [comparing postexercise glycogen on all 3 conditions vs. postexercise glycogen in Pl-Con (nonexercised leg)].

And I would venture to guess that even that figure is high, according to other studies

And, if you notice, it says p/c/f, all 3 had basically the same effect.....

Significantly higher baseline plasma glucose concentrations were observed for both the CHO/Pro/fat and CHO trials (P < 0.05). In all three conditions, exercise resulted in slightly (nonsignificant) higher plasma glucose (Fig. 3A). Consumption of CHO/Pro/fat resulted in significantly greater glucose at 20, 40, 80, 100, 120, 140, and 160 min postexercise compared with the Pl condition (P < 0.01; Fig. 3A). The CHO trial resulted in a similar glucose response to the CHO/Pro/fat trial, with significant increases at 20, 40, 60, 100, 120, and 140 min postexercise vs. the Pl condition (P < 0.01; Fig. 3A). The area under the glucose curve was not significantly different between the CHO/Pro/fat and CHO conditions (CHO/Pro/fat = 5.87 ± 0.27 mM/h and CHO = 5.59 ± 0.35 mM/h), but these were greater compared with Pl (P < 0.01; Fig. 4A).



.

At no point did I say it was total glycogen depletion; Please don't add your own interpretation to my post. I simply referenced the study which was clear on the subject(I posted the whole thing and you referenced it). Depleting 36% of the glycogen from nine sets is substantial and replenishment is particularly important if one engages in multiple training sessions; Which being an athlete as opposed to a bodybuilder should be of note. Depleting 36+% of muscle glycogen in your back and chest as well as legs, typical split plus cardio, would cause a substantial depletion. I advocate a much lower carb consumption for bodybuilders(1g/lb) as opposed to what is recommended by the ACSM, about twice my recommendation if I remember correctly. So I wouldn't assume a "huge amount of carbs" are being consumed, "huge" being a relative term.

 

[Lifterforlife]

At no point did I say it was total glycogen depletion; Please don't add your own interpretation to my post. I simply referenced the study which was clear on the subject(I posted the whole thing and you referenced it).

Here is your complete post on the subject line in question....

The study found a 36% decrease in muscle glycogen from three sets of three different exercises for nine total sets;

So, excuse me, but nowhere in this statement from your own post does it say anything about just the leg muscle. Interpretation from most anyone would lead to the same conclusion.

Depleting 36% of the glycogen from nine sets is substantial and replenishment is particularly important if one engages in multiple training sessions; Which being an athlete as opposed to a bodybuilder should be of note.

And here is further evidence directly continuing your post...and by the way, hhhhmmmmm, an athlete as opposed to a bodybuilder? So, I guess we are now suggesting a bb is not an athlete, or is this again putting words in your mouth?

Depleting 36+% of muscle glycogen in your back and chest as well as legs, typical split plus cardio, would cause a substantial depletion.

Yes, this would be true, but do most folks work those major muscle groups to that extent to deplete glycogen in one workout. A typical split I think not. And then add cardio...a bit of a stretch?

I advocate a much lower carb consumption for bodybuilders(1g/lb) as opposed to what is recommended by the ACSM, about twice my recommendation if I remember correctly. So I wouldn't assume a "huge amount of carbs" are being consumed, "huge" being a relative term.

As do I, it is a rare day when I get over 200 gr. of carbs for the whole day, usually a fair amount less. I do just fine replenishing glycogen. I made a post in another thread to guage your pwo drink to your energy expenditure. This still holds true. If indeed you would do all the work in one workout you advocate, then substantially more would of course be in order.

By the way, had you done one of those "events" you referenced to in my prior post, you may actually have an idea what it entails to deplete glycogen, and could actually speak from experience.

 

[markshark]

A whey shake will be digested by the time you eat lunch with your friend so dont wait, down that thing right away, and you'll be ready to smash down some food.

yeah from what i know in that 2 hours you should have consumed 2 decent sized meals. one should be your post-workout shake with lots of protein, carbs and calories and then about an hour after that another big meal with the same elements. i know i consume like 3 big meals within 4 hours of lifting.

 

[javaguru]

I quoted the study directly; Did I say whole body glycogen depletion? It may be asking a lot but I expect people to do a cursory examination. Why did you try to "assume" whole body glycogen utilization when everybody knows muscle gycogen is used by the specific muscle? Many people do more than nine sets and cardio, me for one. I typically do 12-20 sets per group plus twenty to thirty minutes of cardio. Many people do morning cardio and afternooon workouts;That's why I give "general" advice because I may be counseling a football player or a bodybuilder and glycogen replenishment is good for all involved. Yes, I will admit that I consider "bodybuilding" not much more than a muscle dysmorphia beauty pageant. I'm an athlete, lifting weights isn't an end in itself but makes you better at putting the ball in the hoop or getting into the end zone,

 

[Lifterforlife]

With each post you are stepping in deeper my friend. Let me type a bit slower, maybe it will sink in.

Glycogen is not the primary reason to spike insulin/blood amino acid levels pwo. The primary reason for the hi gi shake post workout is to shut down cortisol, via insulin. Coritsol is highly catabolic, and insulin is its drirect antagonist. Glycogen repletion will happen somewhat here as a byproduct of doing this.

You have to understand that muscular glycogen synthesis is rate limited in the muscle, so getting stuff in quicker does not make alot of difference.

 

[javaguru]

With each post you are stepping in deeper my friend. Let me type a bit slower, maybe it will sink in.

Glycogen is not the primary reason to spike insulin/blood amino acid levels pwo. The primary reason for the hi gi shake post workout is to shut down cortisol, via insulin. Coritsol is highly catabolic, and insulin is its drirect antagonist. Glycogen repletion will happen somewhat here as a byproduct of doing this.

You have to understand that muscular glycogen synthesis is rate limited in the muscle, so getting stuff in quicker does not make alot of difference.

Supercomposition of glycogen does occur post workout, as pointed out in the study and many others. Type as slow as you want but it doesn't change the facts. As a bodybuilder it may not be your number one reason but it's still advantageous, especially when one engages in multiple training sessions; Such as fasted morning cardio with evening weightliting, a very common protocol.At no point did I say glycogen replenishment was the primary reason for a post workout meal. Likewise, I pointed out there is a substantial glycogen decrease in the muscle being trained, 35% according to the study; That's with nine sets( most bodybuilders do many more sets than this for major muscle groups). If you can point out a flaw in their protocol, blood tests and biopsies are pretty straightforward, then one must accept it as accurate. I would also point out the study was done on trained weightlifters as opposed to many studies, "HMB feels like deca."

 

[EL GAUCHO]

Put your claws away girls.....I think you both have valid points.

 

[Lifterforlife]

Such as fasted morning cardio with evening weightliting, a very common protocol.

Another lesson for you bro.....fasted morning cardio has everything to do with depletion of liver glycogen, not muscle glycogen. FFA are high in the morning due to liver glyogen depletion during a fasted state(sleeping).

This is the whole rationale about doing fasted state cardio first thing in the morning.

Keep at it bro, ask away, I will be glad to teach you.

 

[javaguru]

Whoa....you are depleting muscle glycogen if you're working the muscle; Post some studies.

 

[Lifterforlife]

Whoa....you are depleting muscle glycogen if you're working the muscle; Post some studies.

You mentioned fasted state cardio, and that is what I replied with this post. Muscle glycogen is use dependent. Liver glycogen is used to dump when needed, and at night in a fasted state, it does this in a slow release.


I am sure you have heard of fructose taking a non insulin dependent pathway, right? It instead tops off liver glycogn, which is stored for later use. This is why many say it is not optimal for pwo. Well, guess what that later use is?( I should add here that it dumps glycogen when needed other times also, but fasted state is one of those, and this happens nightly)

The liver depletes glycogen overnight while you are in a fasted state.
It does so to maintain normal blood glucose levels. Muscle glucose can only be used directly. (repeating myself here, but to get the point across)

It is well known that overnight fasting favors glycogenolysis


Free fatty acids are an important source of fuel for many tissues since they can yield relatively large quantities of ATP. Many cell types can use either glucose or fatty acids for this purpose. However, heart and skeletal muscle prefer fatty acids. On the other hand, the brain cannot use fatty acids as a source of fuel, relying instead on glucose, or on ketone bodies produced by the liver from fatty acid metabolism during starvation, or periods of low carbohydrate intake. (see overnight fasted state!)

This is the reason FFA are higher in the morning. As soon as we eat something, FFA take off. The body is an intricate machine.

 

[Lifterforlife]

Supercomposition of glycogen does occur post workout, as pointed out in the study and many others. Type as slow as you want but it doesn't change the facts.

As far as this discussion goes, this fact was never debated. But as pointed out, it is not the primary reason for hi gi, this is to shut down cortisol which is highly catabolic via insulin, its antagonist.

Following exercise, muscle cells are especially sensitive to the multiple anabolic effects of insulin. Insulin increases net muscle protein by increasing amino acid transport into the muscle cell, by increasing protein synthesis and by reducing protein breakdown. Cortisol is going to be blunted. This is shown by Ivy and Portman study, as well as numerous others. As well as enhanced glycogen uptake. But again, this is rate dependent.

The reason glycogen replenishment takes a back seat to this is the whole crux of the discussion. Muscle glycogen is going to be replenished, no matter what(unless you in such an extreme diet, like pre contest glycogen depletion). You cannot do this in one drink...remember my post that got skimmed over that glycogen is rate dependent?

You can only push in carbs so far(hi or low gi) beyond some amount, and it doesn't make any difference. You are limited by digestion. At some point, digestive system is overwhelmed, and you have spillover.

The way a normal bodybuilder eats will refill any lost glycogen with no problem. It is really easy to get our glycogen levels back up, and timing is generally not an issue. Even if you are a low carb person, or take an extreme example of no carbs, the body is smart and it will convert protein to glycogen if needed. Ever hear the term, carbs are protein sparing? This is precisely why. Adequate carbs will allow protein for other needs, hopefully for building muscle!

Again, unless you are an endurance athlete, glycogen depletion is not that great under a normal workout. Again, I repeat, having done it many times, glycogen depletion of any substantial amount is pretty difficult to do. We practice this in last week competition dieting, it is tough, already carb depleted, doing days(usually 3 of balls to the wall workouts, added cardio to deplete).

And then we get to replenishment. Again, it is rate dependent. If not, we could theoretically pre comp glycogen loading do it in one sitting by jamming a ton of glucose(carbs) in at one time. In fact, we have to slowly add glucose over 2-3 days to keep from spillover(digestive system will be overwhelmed, and you will lose most cuts and look pudgy).

As a bodybuilder it may not be your number one reason but it's still advantageous, especially when one engages in multiple training sessions;

Yes it becomes more of a factor if 2 a days for instance are done, and heavy hard workouts. But again, even if 2 a day, if the workout is say 14-16 sets for a bodypart, you will obviously not use tremendous amounts of glycogen. There isn't significant glycogen depletion like in longer workouts.

 

[javaguru]

You mentioned fasted state cardio, and that is what I replied with this post. Muscle glycogen is use dependent. Liver glycogen is used to dump when needed, and at night in a fasted state, it does this in a slow release.


I am sure you have heard of fructose taking a non insulin dependent pathway, right? It instead tops off liver glycogn, which is stored for later use. This is why many say it is not optimal for pwo. Well, guess what that later use is?( I should add here that it dumps glycogen when needed other times also, but fasted state is one of those, and this happens nightly)

The liver depletes glycogen overnight while you are in a fasted state.
It does so to maintain normal blood glucose levels. Muscle glucose can only be used directly. (repeating myself here, but to get the point across)

It is well known that overnight fasting favors glycogenolysis


Free fatty acids are an important source of fuel for many tissues since they can yield relatively large quantities of ATP. Many cell types can use either glucose or fatty acids for this purpose. However, heart and skeletal muscle prefer fatty acids. On the other hand, the brain cannot use fatty acids as a source of fuel, relying instead on glucose, or on ketone bodies produced by the liver from fatty acid metabolism during starvation, or periods of low carbohydrate intake. (see overnight fasted state!)

This is the reason FFA are higher in the morning. As soon as we eat something, FFA take off. The body is an intricate machine.

I have previous posts addressing issues you raised and I'm in agreement. Which brings up one of my own theories which I can't support with direct evidence but have had tremendous success anecdotally. I believe liver glycogen stores are important to maintain while dieting, which is why I never eliminate fruit; I feel it is a marker of "non starvation." That's why I advocate consuming moderate amounts of fructose, I've read where it's claimed the human body can actually store up to 200g of liver glycogen, so overconsumption of fruit isn't a major concern. I'm more concerned with overall CHO consumption, quality and its timing.

 

[javaguru]

As far as this discussion goes, this fact was never debated. But as pointed out, it is not the primary reason for hi gi, this is to shut down cortisol which is highly catabolic via insulin, its antagonist.

Following exercise, muscle cells are especially sensitive to the multiple anabolic effects of insulin. Insulin increases net muscle protein by increasing amino acid transport into the muscle cell, by increasing protein synthesis and by reducing protein breakdown. Cortisol is going to be blunted. This is shown by Ivy and Portman study, as well as numerous others. As well as enhanced glycogen uptake. But again, this is rate dependent.

The reason glycogen replenishment takes a back seat to this is the whole crux of the discussion. Muscle glycogen is going to be replenished, no matter what(unless you in such an extreme diet, like pre contest glycogen depletion). You cannot do this in one drink...remember my post that got skimmed over that glycogen is rate dependent?

You can only push in carbs so far(hi or low gi) beyond some amount, and it doesn't make any difference. You are limited by digestion. At some point, digestive system is overwhelmed, and you have spillover.

The way a normal bodybuilder eats will refill any lost glycogen with no problem. It is really easy to get our glycogen levels back up, and timing is generally not an issue. Even if you are a low carb person, or take an extreme example of no carbs, the body is smart and it will convert protein to glycogen if needed. Ever hear the term, carbs are protein sparing? This is precisely why. Adequate carbs will allow protein for other needs, hopefully for building muscle!

Again, unless you are an endurance athlete, glycogen depletion is not that great under a normal workout. Again, I repeat, having done it many times, glycogen depletion of any substantial amount is pretty difficult to do. We practice this in last week competition dieting, it is tough, already carb depleted, doing days(usually 3 of balls to the wall workouts, added cardio to deplete).

And then we get to replenishment. Again, it is rate dependent. If not, we could theoretically pre comp glycogen loading do it in one sitting by jamming a ton of glucose(carbs) in at one time. In fact, we have to slowly add glucose over 2-3 days to keep from spillover(digestive system will be overwhelmed, and you will lose most cuts and look pudgy).




Yes it becomes more of a factor if 2 a days for instance are done, and heavy hard workouts. But again, even if 2 a day, if the workout is say 14-16 sets for a bodypart, you will obviously not use tremendous amounts of glycogen. There isn't significant glycogen depletion like in longer workouts.

I never argued glycogen replenishment was of primary importance for a bodybuilder post workout, only it's advantageous, particularly under multiple training session protocol. It's a marker of recovery for everyone engaged in competitive athletics. My protocol involves 80% of your carbs around your workouts, shakes should all be under 10% concentration; For rapid absorption and has the side effect of ensuring adequate hydration. That means a workout shake which blunts depletion, one immediate post workout and a "normal" meal an hour post workout. This also has the advantage of maintaining elevated insulin over several hours. The study showed nine sets depleted muscle glycogen in the muscle trained by over a third, which is substantial considering the popular splits of most bodybuilders(12-30 sets per bodypart are not uncommon). IMO, the faster you're "recovered" the better.

 

[Lifterforlife]

I never argued glycogen replenishment was of primary importance for a bodybuilder post workout, only it's advantageous, particularly under multiple training session protocol. It's a marker of recovery for everyone engaged in competitive athletics.

Thank you for agreeing with me once again.

My protocol involves 80% of your carbs around your workouts, shakes should all be under 10% concentration; For rapid absorption and has the side effect of ensuring adequate hydration.

How long did you search to find that old "conventional wisdom"? This was what was thought at one time , but those of us who keep in the forefront know that cellular hydration to the extent that we get with creatine supplementation for instance has little effect on muscle protein synthesis or breakdown in healthy men or women (Louis et al., 2003).

That means a workout shake which blunts depletion, one immediate post workout and a "normal" meal an hour post workout. This also has the advantage of maintaining elevated insulin over several hours. The study showed nine sets depleted muscle glycogen in the muscle trained by over a third, which is substantial considering the popular splits of most bodybuilders(12-30 sets per bodypart are not uncommon). IMO, the faster you're "recovered" the better.

Duh! The faster you recover, the better? Geez, who would ever think that! Again you are but repeating what I have been saying. This is nothing new, anyone who reads this thread will already know this. The only part you are leaving out is that while true, some glycogen is depleted, replenishment is still rate dependent. Yes, it is super compensation time at pwo, and insulin sensitivity is indeed increased, but this simply means that you can jack a bit more glycogen in the muscle at this time than normal, but still even that is limited. Why do you think that studies all say that by doing this or that, or supplement companies touting a supplement tout that you can get 10% more glycogen uptake or something? They are saying 10% more than normal

It took you a long time to search and piece some stuff together, which is mostly correct by the way, but you could have easily gotten by simply reading my prior posts.

I think at this point it would be easier for me to mentally bend a spoon.

 

[markshark]

Point Of Entire Thread: Eat Immediately After A Workout Or You're Fucked!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Lifterforlife]

Here is an interesting study that shows that protein synthesis foloowing training actually increases higher at the 24 hr. mark. This would indeed confirm why some folks who believe in low gi(oats/protein for instance) still make gains. Such as the point I made in a prior post that before we knew all the "science", what did we do? We went home, ate a 1/2 lb. of ground round and a plate of pasta. Guess what, we still gained!

In the "old days", we had no idea of dextrose, malto, etc. We did not even have creatine. The top supplements we had were Hoffman Milk and Egg(hardly fast digesting), Weider crap, Hot Stuff, etc. There were some pretty dam good physiques built back then.

Not saying that the hi gi pwo drink scenario is wrong, I in fact subscribe to it myself. Am just pointing out that your gains will not be null and void if you do not get a drink in you in 18.5 minutes or some crazy figure.

Point being, protein synthesis is elevated close to 30 hrs., then returns to baseline. So, eat, eat, eat in that timeframe.

Here it is......

The time course for elevated muscle protein synthesis following heavy resistance exercise.

MacDougall JD, Gibala MJ, Tarnopolsky MA, MacDonald JR, Interisano SA, Yarasheski KE.

Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario.

It has been shown that muscle protein synthetic rate (MPS) is elevated in humans by 50% at 4 hrs following a bout of heavy resistance training, and by 109% at 24 hrs following training. This study further examined the time course for elevated muscle protein synthesis by examining its rate at 36 hrs following a training session. Six healthy young men performed 12 sets of 6- to 12-RM elbow flexion exercises with one arm while the opposite arm served as a control. MPS was calculated from the in vivo rate of incorporation of L-[1,2-13C2] leucine into biceps brachii of both arms using the primed constant infusion technique over 11 hrs. At an average time of 36 hrs postexercise, MPS in the exercised arm had returned to within 14% of the control arm value, the difference being nonsignificant. It is concluded that following a bout of heavy resistance training, MPS increases rapidly, is more than double at 24 hrs, and thereafter declines rapidly so that at 36 hrs it has almost returned to baseline.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 8563679 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[javaguru]

Thank you for agreeing with me once again.



How long did you search to find that old "conventional wisdom"? This was what was thought at one time , but those of us who keep in the forefront know that cellular hydration to the extent that we get with creatine supplementation for instance has little effect on muscle protein synthesis or breakdown in healthy men or women (Louis et al., 2003).




Duh! The faster you recover, the better? Geez, who would ever think that! Again you are but repeating what I have been saying. This is nothing new, anyone who reads this thread will already know this. The only part you are leaving out is that while true, some glycogen is depleted, replenishment is still rate dependent. Yes, it is super compensation time at pwo, and insulin sensitivity is indeed increased, but this simply means that you can jack a bit more glycogen in the muscle at this time than normal, but still even that is limited. Why do you think that studies all say that by doing this or that, or supplement companies touting a supplement tout that you can get 10% more glycogen uptake or something? They are saying 10% more than normal

It took you a long time to search and piece some stuff together, which is mostly correct by the way, but you could have easily gotten by simply reading my prior posts.

I think at this point it would be easier for me to mentally bend a spoon.

Perhaps I should state it again for the dull witted; I never stated glycogen replenishment was related to protein synthesis; It has an independent mechanism of action. Please don't "put" words in my mouth; It extremely annoying in the sense it doesn't foster a reasonable discussion. Science isn't about being "right", it's about presenting evidence under proscribed guidelines.

I've shown muscle glycogen depletion is substantial, even during bodybuilding; I would consider 30+% after nine sets to be very substantial. People who engage in resistance training will benefit from post exercise glycogen replenishment, particularly under the conditions of multiple training sessions. You may have 24 hours of increased glycogen synthesis but as I advocate, sooner is better.

 

[Lifterforlife]

Perhaps I should state it again for the dull witted; I never stated glycogen replenishment was related to protein synthesis; It has an independent mechanism of action. Please don't "put" words in my mouth;

Again, you are simply repeating what I posted, trying to turn it around like you are making some new point. Glycogen is not the primary reason to spike insulin/blood amino acid levels pwo. The primary reason for the hi gi shake post workout is to shut down cortisol, via insulin. Coritsol is highly catabolic, and insulin is its drirect antagonist. Glycogen repletion will happen somewhat here as a byproduct of doing this. Ring a bell? Post #31?

It extremely annoying in the sense it doesn't foster a reasonable discussion. Science isn't about being "right", it's about presenting evidence under proscribed guidelines.

Yeah, I believe I have done that time and time again in posts, and you are simply rehashing something I said to try to make it sound like something you came up with because in fact you cannot win. Annoying you most definitely are, in fact your obsessive posting trying to make some same old tired point that has been made a thousand times and verified is bordering on rubber room personality.

You may have 24 hours of increased glycogen synthesis but as I advocate, sooner is better.

Read the study bro.....24 hrs. is double MPS. I don't know which is limiting you more, your reading comprehension or your interpretation of what you read.

You want to take me on bro, bring it on. You cannot win, you don't have the knowlege, the background, or the experience. In fact, I am writing a book right now, when I am done, I may just send a copy to you for free, you may just finally learn some things instead of spouting the same old tired material.

 

[javaguru]

Ummm..Like I said, where did I post glycogen replenishment was of primary importance; You can quote on EF and I'm waiting.

 

[javaguru]

So what's your point if you're only agreeing with me?