HUCK , MACRO , FONZ , vets , mods -Can you still GROW on a VERY LOW CALORIE diet ?

[satchboogie]

perhaps one of the most puzzling scenario in bodybuilding!

 

[Ttokkyo Jack]

Law of Energy Conservation

Energy cannot be created or destroyed but may be transformed from one kind to another.

Laws of Thermodynamics

Work and heat are mutually convertible (may be converted from one form to another). The change in a system's internal energy is equal to the heat absorbed (calories in) from the environment minus work done (calories out) on the environment.

In other words, if your fat (energy) storage is increasing, it is coming from the amount of food (energy) you consume compared to the amount of energy you expend.

Laws of Thermodynamics Applied to the Human Energy System

Where E = energy expressed in calories, which is a measurement of heat.

1. If E in (food consumption) = E out (total bodywork), then body fat or weight remains stable.

2. If E in > E out, then body fat or weight is gained.

3. If E in < E out, then body fat or weight is lost.

Victor,

I have a few questions. Please elaborate. BTW, No flame intended:

1. What were your calculations based upon? How did you determine your maintenance calories (BMR)? Age, Height, Weight, Activity Level ect...?

2. How did you determine your daily caloric intake? Around 2,500 cal is not good enough for an argument such as this.

3. How did you determine your caloric expenditure during your workout? Anaerobic vs. Aerobic?

4. Proffesionally tested? Just because he is a professional doesn't mean he is any good at what he does.

5. How did you measure your water weight? Was there some initial calculation perfomed to show a difference in regards to your results?

Approximate figures are not good enough which is the problem for an agrument such as this. Many people think they count their calories but are way off in reality. If your intial basline calculations were off, your answers would be inacurrate as well.

Regardless, I am happy to hear you had good results with the cycle. Just think what you could have gained with an increase to your caloric intake and adjustment in your macronutrient ratios.

I would be interested if any could provide any studies or hard evidence that link the any of the factors such as the Law of Thermodynamics to Hypertrophy or any other factors that I am missing or unaware of. This would be greatly appreciated as well as helpful in proving a point such as gaining muscle while in a caloric defecit.

Jenetic

What you are forgetting about is all of the stored up energy already in the body in the form of fat. Even though you may be eating less than maintenance calories, your body can still use its fat calories for energy, and the calories that you consume from eating for building muscle. Hence losing body fat and gaining lbm at the same time. As huck said this is not easy for most to do, but for a beginner, or for someone who is recently getting back into lifting this is definitely possible. Your diet would have to be relatively high in protein, and gear of course would help with the building of muscle.

 

[junk]

Many relevent points already addressed here...Possible,yes.Easy to do?For most people,no.Fonz probably nailed the most important point.As long as you can maintain positive nitrogenic retention and avoid amino acid exportation(by keeping protein as your main staple/macronutrient),then you can still grow,but it will be more difficult to maintain strength,as ATP is likely to be drained for sure in a sub-caloric state.This is where certain anabolics are a godsend though,as they keep the PNS stimulated even in an ATP depleted state,which helps maintain contractile force.

Bottom line,if you're goal is to maintain/gain a slight amount of LBM sub-calorically,make sure to keep protein as your main dietary staple.

Oh,and A/S won't hurt either.

Gee. A good thread once in a while from a lot of knowlegable guys. GREAT.

HUCK, what sort of macro nutrients ratios than would you suggest when dieting down without loosing muscle and possibly ADDING some muscle? I'm going to run Fina and Test??

Usually I have great experience in terms of loosing fat with 45% protein, 45% fat(only omegas 3-6-9) and about 10% carbs (except on workout days). However, the problem with high fat macronutrients percantages is that it leaves a smaller amounts of proteins for the day (since fat is 9cals and not4)

Your thoughts please

 

[evander1972]

It is possible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time on a calorie defict diet. I did it a couple of yrs ago. I dont have specific figures on what I was eating but I ate the same thing for 5 weeks day in day out. Just 2 meals a day of boiled chicken and rice and one protein shake after the gym at night and I cut up nicely and gained strength. Admitedly I wasnt that big at the time, I was about 160 lbs when I finnished but it can be done.

 

[alltraps]

good discussion! i miss these, there are less and less good discussions here, most posts are flame wars and people trying to force their points of view!
keep this going

 

[HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex]

Gee. A good thread once in a while from a lot of knowlegable guys. GREAT.

HUCK, what sort of macro nutrients ratios than would you suggest when dieting down without loosing muscle and possibly ADDING some muscle? I'm going to run Fina and Test??

Usually I have great experience in terms of loosing fat with 45% protein, 45% fat(only omegas 3-6-9) and about 10% carbs (except on workout days). However, the problem with high fat macronutrients percantages is that it leaves a smaller amounts of proteins for the day (since fat is 9cals and not4)

Your thoughts please

Well,most will likely cringe at what I consider a good sub-caloric breakdown:
65% protein
25-30% fats
5-10% carbs

Carbs can actually go up some if they're ultra clean/Fibrous(Broccoli,cauliflower,lettuce,etc.)but for a lard ass endomorph like me,I have to almost eliminate them altogether.

 

[OMEGA]

Carbs can actually go up some if they're ultra clean/Fibrous(Broccoli,cauliflower,lettuce,etc.)but for a lard ass endomorph like me,I have to almost eliminate them altogether.

you are not alone

but boy can we pack on mass

 

[VictorBR]

Congratulation's on your gain's VICTOR sounds really good. Interesting topic and if you don't mind I will give my two cents if you could provide us with your before stats : age,weight ,bf%,type of bf test,measurements,activity level(work,exercise)ratios of food and also your current status(when you achive those results.)

>>> thanks , When I did it , it was in 2001 , I was 21 years of age and I started my cycle like this ( those stats are probably not 100 % accurate because it was a long time ago , but it is pretty close to what happened to me ) :

before:

weight - 210 lbs
LBM - 178.5 lbs
fat weight - 31.5 lbs
body fat % = 16 % ( using lange calipers and pollock method )

I finished like this :

weight - 205 lbs
LBM -188.5 lbs
fat weight - 16.5 lbs
body fat % = 9 % ( using same methods )

training was = weight training 4-5 x a week and aerobics 4 x a week.

maronutrients ratio was like this = 250 g of protein , 200 g of carbs and 75 g of fat = 2.500 cals .


I am glad everyones agree with me , but my man jenectic is still trying to prove me wrong



Victor

 

[Jenetic]

Many relevent points already addressed here...Possible,yes.Easy to do?For most people,no.Fonz probably nailed the most important point.As long as you can maintain positive nitrogenic retention and avoid amino acid exportation(by keeping protein as your main staple/macronutrient),then you can still grow,but it will be more difficult to maintain strength,as ATP is likely to be drained for sure in a sub-caloric state.This is where certain anabolics are a godsend though,as they keep the PNS stimulated even in an ATP depleted state,which helps maintain contractile force.

Bottom line,if you're goal is to maintain/gain a slight amount of LBM sub-calorically,make sure to keep protein as your main dietary staple.

Oh,and A/S won't hurt either.

I stand corrected on the statement of this topic being an impossibility.

I am interested in what the effects of ketoacids and cortisol would play at this point especially during and post work out?

 

[HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex]

I stand corrected on the statement of this topic being an impossibility.

I am interested in what the effects of ketoacids and cortisol would play at this point especially during and post work out?

Both of those are certainly relevent factors,particularly if no anabolics are used.Cortisol will definitely be something to watch out for,as sub-cal/stress are wonderful catalysts for its release(can you say achy joints?).This is where something like anavar,winstrol or fina(which all modulate the gluccocoticoid system)would be HIGHLY beneficial,and another reason why so many folks prefer them during cutting cycles.