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HUCK , MACRO , FONZ , vets , mods -Can you still GROW on a VERY LOW CALORIE diet ?
- Thread starter VictorBR
- Start date
I think it's simple.
Protein Synthesized due to muscular hypertrophy(i.e. you rip the muscle, and the muscle itself grows back bigger and larger) has to be >(Greater than ) Protein Catabolism(degradation).
With one restriction. The protein synthesized due to exogeneous means must be within the boundaries of a person's ability to generate protein synthesis.
If all this is true + the restriction....you grow. Even on lowered calories.
Protein Synthesized due to muscular hypertrophy(i.e. you rip the muscle, and the muscle itself grows back bigger and larger) has to be >(Greater than ) Protein Catabolism(degradation).
With one restriction. The protein synthesized due to exogeneous means must be within the boundaries of a person's ability to generate protein synthesis.
If all this is true + the restriction....you grow. Even on lowered calories.
liquidmuscle
Well-known member
Fonz said:
i am using t3 50mcg ed
prop 50mgs eod
winny 50mgs eod
cyp 200mgs ew
i am proof to back fonz up since i am in a demanding sales mgr position and i rarely get to sit down and eat good meals. on my days off i do but otherwise my caloric/protein/carb intake isnt where it should be yet i keep shredding fat and maintaining weight, put it this way i was 6ft 190lbs with noticeable fat on lower abs(tire) now i am 195-199 and little to no more fat and visible abs, so i say yes you can grow
LATINLOVER
New member
Congratulation's on your gain's VICTOR sounds really good. Interesting topic and if you don't mind I will give my two cents if you could provide us with your before stats : age,weight ,bf%,type of bf test,measurements,activity level(work,exercise)ratios of food and also your current status(when you achive those results.)
Many relevent points already addressed here...Possible,yes.Easy to do?For most people,no.Fonz probably nailed the most important point.As long as you can maintain positive nitrogenic retention and avoid amino acid exportation(by keeping protein as your main staple/macronutrient),then you can still grow,but it will be more difficult to maintain strength,as ATP is likely to be drained for sure in a sub-caloric state.This is where certain anabolics are a godsend though,as they keep the PNS stimulated even in an ATP depleted state,which helps maintain contractile force.
Bottom line,if you're goal is to maintain/gain a slight amount of LBM sub-calorically,make sure to keep protein as your main dietary staple.
Oh,and A/S won't hurt either.
Bottom line,if you're goal is to maintain/gain a slight amount of LBM sub-calorically,make sure to keep protein as your main dietary staple.
Oh,and A/S won't hurt either.
GoldenDelicious
New member
biochemically it can occur.
the piece of the puzzle most here are missing is that your body can utilise energy other than dietary nutrients for use both for atp synthesis, and skeletal muscle synthesis.
the trick is to be able to use the food you eat (particularly protein) to build new muscle while using your existing energy stores (fat) to fuel the bodys ATP needs more than usual.
then of course you should consider taht metabolism isnt a constant. metabolism = anabolism + catabolism. eating less food and training may decrease overall metabolism, but that is no guarantee that the anabolic component/processes we are interested in (muscle growth) will be any less in the calorie restricted state than in the normal caloric state.
cheers
the piece of the puzzle most here are missing is that your body can utilise energy other than dietary nutrients for use both for atp synthesis, and skeletal muscle synthesis.
the trick is to be able to use the food you eat (particularly protein) to build new muscle while using your existing energy stores (fat) to fuel the bodys ATP needs more than usual.
then of course you should consider taht metabolism isnt a constant. metabolism = anabolism + catabolism. eating less food and training may decrease overall metabolism, but that is no guarantee that the anabolic component/processes we are interested in (muscle growth) will be any less in the calorie restricted state than in the normal caloric state.
cheers
ultra clean carbs
that means no processed stuff
only fruits vegitables, and the use of oats, and grains sparingly
when you eat the grains and oats take Glucorell-r with it
most people don't know this
but fruits, veigitables, and milk sugar are the only form that illicit NO INSULIN spike or a relativley low one
these sugars bypass the celluar membrane and our directly converted into energy for you body
eat super clean protien and CUT FATS TO less than 50 grams a day
no one has payed attention to this diet but it works:
by eating only fruits and vegitables as your source of carbs.
and maybe one serving of complex carbs in the from of breads, and other processed slow burning carbs.......
hope you enjoy! OMEGA
Jon Bailey
Editor’s note: I believe that most people fail in their attempts to gain size in the area of their diets. They may train hard, even take megadoses of anabolic steroids, but really, everything is based on diet. When someone asks me why he’s not gaining weight, I immediately question him about what he is (or isn’t) eating. Jon Bailey is the best-known bodybuilding nutritionist in Southern California. He has the reputation of getting even hard gainers to put on quality size. He has worked with some very well known national caliber bodybuilders, although you won’t find them talking about their secret nutritionist. Jon, in this chapter, gives you an introduction to his methods, which, when followed, can work very well. Average gains on Jon’s diet are about 30 pounds of mostly solid muscle in two months time!
Of all the problems that any bodybuilder faces, choosing or designing an ultimate nutritional program is probably the most difficult. This holds true for the most advanced bodybuilder as well as the beginner. A large part of this dilemma is due to the hundreds of articles written on this particular subject. There are many ideas discussed by various so called nutritional experts, often contradicting each other. So, how do you choose which system is right for you? One thing I want you to keep in mind is that anyone writing on bodybuilding nutrition, including myself, has no idea who is reading the material. I cannot write a definite diet because I don’t know it the person reading this is male or female, fifteen years old or fifty, one hundred or three hundred pounds. No single nutritional program will be applicable to everyone. For optimal results, each diet should be done on an individual basis depending on the person’s goals, age, sex, size, training experience, etc. With this disclaimer, I will outline my basic nutritional program format, which, although not ‘line tuned” will be of great benefit to all of you.
Over the last twenty years, I’ve spent thousands of hours trying to develop the most efficient diets for all phases of bodybuilding. This includes diets for beginners, intermediates, and the most advanced, gaining diets (bulking), hardening diets, and cutting diets. In the last twenty years, I’ve written over three thousand diets, mostly for bodybuilders in the Southern California area. I’ve tried virtually every combination possible. This includes high protein/low carbohydrate, zero fat, high complex carbohydrate/moderate protein, low protein/high simple carbohydrate, ad infinitum. You name a combination of foods and I’ve tried it. So, I’ll save you a lot of time by telling you that I know from experience with many bodybuilders what works and what doesn’t. The system that evolved from all this experimentation is the system that I presently use and is the one I consider the most efficient.
There are several essential factors you must keep in mind while you design a high efficiency bodybuilding diet. Coordinate your entire program in accordance with what your goals are. Anabolic steroids, diet and your training program should all work together. You must also consider your job and your financial status. Those bodybuilders who failed on my system did so usually because they did not realistically assess the time and money needed for the system to work. Maybe they had a job that didn’t allow them to eat frequently, so they skipped meals, or they could only commit half the money actually needed for the grocery bill each week. My system does not fail; it is the user which fails to follow the system.
The factors of diet, pharmaceuticals, and training all make up a synergistic system. For example, certain foods work better with certain anabolic steroids and should be taken into consideration. The nutritional program should be progressive. It’s best to do the program in stages because as you grow, your system adjusts; the body will be able to utilize more nutrients. I believe that food combining is a most important factor in the design of a diet. Since you will be eating several meals a day, it is best to combine foods properly so that each meal is digested quickly and
efficiently. You don’t want to ingest your second (or third) meal before gastric emptying of the previous meal. As to the actual diet, I prefer the following guidelines:
· In most cases, 5 to 7 meals per day, depending on the individual’s size, goals, and training experience
· A high protein, high carbohydrate diet
· A simple isolated complex carbohydrate diet
Most of your meals should consist of simple carbohydrates (monosaccharides). I like using at least three different sources of fruits and fruit juices that are digested and absorbed at different rates. This allows your blood sugar to rise gradually then stabilize. Protein foods should also be mixed so they are assimilated at different rates. This enables your system to utilize more nutrients as the protein is metered gradually into the intestinal tract. Also, if high quality protein foods are used, this will give a more efficient mixture of amino acids. It is best to keep your large complex carbohydrate (polysaccharide) meal isolated. If you mix a large amount of complex carbs with a large amount of hard to digest protein foods, the combination will take too long to digest. Also, keep your intake of milk products low as they tend to form too much mucus, clogging your system. Fiber intake should be high to keep your intestinal tract clean, allowing more nutrients to be absorbed.
It is a good practice to get various types of bulk and fiber. Coarse fiber can be found in the skins of fruit and leafy green vegetables. Medium fiber can be added with grain products or pineapple. I use bananas as a good source of fine fiber.
I try to keep fats very low in this system as they are hard to digest and slow absorption down. I am not too concerned with precise ratios of saturated and unsaturated fats. It is very hard to keep saturated fats low unless you are a vegetarian.
I’m going to give you an example of a typical bodybuilding diet. This would be for an intermediate bodybuilder who is trying to pain muscular bodyweight and who is not already over 12% body fat. Exact amounts are not given since they vary so much from individual to individual. Normally when I design a nutritional program for a client, exact amounts are given.
Meal #1 (Breakfast, 15 to 20 minutes after awakening)
Fresh raw apple or pear, with skin
Fresh banana
Raisins or other dried fruit
Whole eggs, any style except fried or raw
Turkey or chicken breast
Roundsteak or extra lean ground beef, baked or broiled
Fruit juice
Supplements
Meal #2 (approximately 3 hours after meal #1)
Fresh raw pineapple
Dried apple or apricot
Whole eggs, any style except fried or raw
Any low f at fish, baked or broiled
Fruit juice with a protein powder mixed in Supplements
Meal #3 (Lunch, 1 1/2 hours after meal #2)
Small green salad; safflower oil and vinegar dressing
Banana or other easily digested fruit
Turkey or chicken breast
Any lean red meat, baked or broiled
Mineral or bottled water
Supplements
Meal #4 (3-3 1/2 hours after #3; a pre-workout meal)
Banana or other easily digested fruit
Raisins or other dried fruit
Small amount of easily digested protein; poultry or fish
Ultimate Orange drink
Meal #5 (Post workout meal, complex carbohydrate meal)
Portion of green vegetable
Vegetable or vegetable beef soup
Baked potato or pasta
Brown rice or corn
Whole wheat bread
Vegetable juice cocktail
Supplements
Meal #6 (1 to 2 hours before bed)
Whole eggs, any style except fried or raw
Small amount of cottage cheese or yogurt
Fresh raw apple or pear with skin
Roundsteak or extra lean ground beef, baked or broiled
Fruit juice
Supplements
This type of nutritional program will accomplish many things. It will keep the individual’s metabolic rate high; his system will remain clean and efficient and a positive nitrogen balance will be maintained. A program like this with proper supplements will cover all the bases, nutritionally speaking.
I believe strongly in supplementation. The more food you ingest, the more supplements your body will need. Of particular importance are water soluble vitamins as high fiber diets tend to flush these vitamins through the system. Also, a multi-mineral supplement should be taken. It is a good idea to read up on all vitamins and minerals so that you are familiar with their functions. An easy way to do this is with a Nutritional Almanac. It will give you a sound and basic understanding of all the nutrients and how they work together, but remember that if you are a bodybuilder and training hard you will need considerably higher amounts than the average recommended dosages. I like to get smaller dosages of water soluble vitamins but more often throughout the day. Also, the types of diets I plan require heavy mineral supplementation as dairy products are used sparingly. With large protein meals, it is a good insurance to supplement certain limiting amino acids and free L-Lysine (base).
Like the actual diet, supplementation is dependent, and must be tailored according to what the individual is trying to accomplish. Certain nutrients are more essential in a pre-contest or cutting diet as compared to a bulking diet (and vice-versa).
In conclusion, try to keep your diet individualized and in accordance with your stage of development and training. Keep your program progressive, and if you are on any anabolic steroids, learn what nutrients work best in conjunction with them. A general rule is that most oral steroids work best with a diet high in red meats (water based injectables, too). Most oil-based injectables seem to work better with poultry and eggs, but always keep a good balance in your diet.
that means no processed stuff
only fruits vegitables, and the use of oats, and grains sparingly
when you eat the grains and oats take Glucorell-r with it
most people don't know this
but fruits, veigitables, and milk sugar are the only form that illicit NO INSULIN spike or a relativley low one
these sugars bypass the celluar membrane and our directly converted into energy for you body
eat super clean protien and CUT FATS TO less than 50 grams a day
no one has payed attention to this diet but it works:
by eating only fruits and vegitables as your source of carbs.
and maybe one serving of complex carbs in the from of breads, and other processed slow burning carbs.......
hope you enjoy! OMEGA
Jon Bailey
Editor’s note: I believe that most people fail in their attempts to gain size in the area of their diets. They may train hard, even take megadoses of anabolic steroids, but really, everything is based on diet. When someone asks me why he’s not gaining weight, I immediately question him about what he is (or isn’t) eating. Jon Bailey is the best-known bodybuilding nutritionist in Southern California. He has the reputation of getting even hard gainers to put on quality size. He has worked with some very well known national caliber bodybuilders, although you won’t find them talking about their secret nutritionist. Jon, in this chapter, gives you an introduction to his methods, which, when followed, can work very well. Average gains on Jon’s diet are about 30 pounds of mostly solid muscle in two months time!
Of all the problems that any bodybuilder faces, choosing or designing an ultimate nutritional program is probably the most difficult. This holds true for the most advanced bodybuilder as well as the beginner. A large part of this dilemma is due to the hundreds of articles written on this particular subject. There are many ideas discussed by various so called nutritional experts, often contradicting each other. So, how do you choose which system is right for you? One thing I want you to keep in mind is that anyone writing on bodybuilding nutrition, including myself, has no idea who is reading the material. I cannot write a definite diet because I don’t know it the person reading this is male or female, fifteen years old or fifty, one hundred or three hundred pounds. No single nutritional program will be applicable to everyone. For optimal results, each diet should be done on an individual basis depending on the person’s goals, age, sex, size, training experience, etc. With this disclaimer, I will outline my basic nutritional program format, which, although not ‘line tuned” will be of great benefit to all of you.
Over the last twenty years, I’ve spent thousands of hours trying to develop the most efficient diets for all phases of bodybuilding. This includes diets for beginners, intermediates, and the most advanced, gaining diets (bulking), hardening diets, and cutting diets. In the last twenty years, I’ve written over three thousand diets, mostly for bodybuilders in the Southern California area. I’ve tried virtually every combination possible. This includes high protein/low carbohydrate, zero fat, high complex carbohydrate/moderate protein, low protein/high simple carbohydrate, ad infinitum. You name a combination of foods and I’ve tried it. So, I’ll save you a lot of time by telling you that I know from experience with many bodybuilders what works and what doesn’t. The system that evolved from all this experimentation is the system that I presently use and is the one I consider the most efficient.
There are several essential factors you must keep in mind while you design a high efficiency bodybuilding diet. Coordinate your entire program in accordance with what your goals are. Anabolic steroids, diet and your training program should all work together. You must also consider your job and your financial status. Those bodybuilders who failed on my system did so usually because they did not realistically assess the time and money needed for the system to work. Maybe they had a job that didn’t allow them to eat frequently, so they skipped meals, or they could only commit half the money actually needed for the grocery bill each week. My system does not fail; it is the user which fails to follow the system.
The factors of diet, pharmaceuticals, and training all make up a synergistic system. For example, certain foods work better with certain anabolic steroids and should be taken into consideration. The nutritional program should be progressive. It’s best to do the program in stages because as you grow, your system adjusts; the body will be able to utilize more nutrients. I believe that food combining is a most important factor in the design of a diet. Since you will be eating several meals a day, it is best to combine foods properly so that each meal is digested quickly and
efficiently. You don’t want to ingest your second (or third) meal before gastric emptying of the previous meal. As to the actual diet, I prefer the following guidelines:
· In most cases, 5 to 7 meals per day, depending on the individual’s size, goals, and training experience
· A high protein, high carbohydrate diet
· A simple isolated complex carbohydrate diet
Most of your meals should consist of simple carbohydrates (monosaccharides). I like using at least three different sources of fruits and fruit juices that are digested and absorbed at different rates. This allows your blood sugar to rise gradually then stabilize. Protein foods should also be mixed so they are assimilated at different rates. This enables your system to utilize more nutrients as the protein is metered gradually into the intestinal tract. Also, if high quality protein foods are used, this will give a more efficient mixture of amino acids. It is best to keep your large complex carbohydrate (polysaccharide) meal isolated. If you mix a large amount of complex carbs with a large amount of hard to digest protein foods, the combination will take too long to digest. Also, keep your intake of milk products low as they tend to form too much mucus, clogging your system. Fiber intake should be high to keep your intestinal tract clean, allowing more nutrients to be absorbed.
It is a good practice to get various types of bulk and fiber. Coarse fiber can be found in the skins of fruit and leafy green vegetables. Medium fiber can be added with grain products or pineapple. I use bananas as a good source of fine fiber.
I try to keep fats very low in this system as they are hard to digest and slow absorption down. I am not too concerned with precise ratios of saturated and unsaturated fats. It is very hard to keep saturated fats low unless you are a vegetarian.
I’m going to give you an example of a typical bodybuilding diet. This would be for an intermediate bodybuilder who is trying to pain muscular bodyweight and who is not already over 12% body fat. Exact amounts are not given since they vary so much from individual to individual. Normally when I design a nutritional program for a client, exact amounts are given.
Meal #1 (Breakfast, 15 to 20 minutes after awakening)
Fresh raw apple or pear, with skin
Fresh banana
Raisins or other dried fruit
Whole eggs, any style except fried or raw
Turkey or chicken breast
Roundsteak or extra lean ground beef, baked or broiled
Fruit juice
Supplements
Meal #2 (approximately 3 hours after meal #1)
Fresh raw pineapple
Dried apple or apricot
Whole eggs, any style except fried or raw
Any low f at fish, baked or broiled
Fruit juice with a protein powder mixed in Supplements
Meal #3 (Lunch, 1 1/2 hours after meal #2)
Small green salad; safflower oil and vinegar dressing
Banana or other easily digested fruit
Turkey or chicken breast
Any lean red meat, baked or broiled
Mineral or bottled water
Supplements
Meal #4 (3-3 1/2 hours after #3; a pre-workout meal)
Banana or other easily digested fruit
Raisins or other dried fruit
Small amount of easily digested protein; poultry or fish
Ultimate Orange drink
Meal #5 (Post workout meal, complex carbohydrate meal)
Portion of green vegetable
Vegetable or vegetable beef soup
Baked potato or pasta
Brown rice or corn
Whole wheat bread
Vegetable juice cocktail
Supplements
Meal #6 (1 to 2 hours before bed)
Whole eggs, any style except fried or raw
Small amount of cottage cheese or yogurt
Fresh raw apple or pear with skin
Roundsteak or extra lean ground beef, baked or broiled
Fruit juice
Supplements
This type of nutritional program will accomplish many things. It will keep the individual’s metabolic rate high; his system will remain clean and efficient and a positive nitrogen balance will be maintained. A program like this with proper supplements will cover all the bases, nutritionally speaking.
I believe strongly in supplementation. The more food you ingest, the more supplements your body will need. Of particular importance are water soluble vitamins as high fiber diets tend to flush these vitamins through the system. Also, a multi-mineral supplement should be taken. It is a good idea to read up on all vitamins and minerals so that you are familiar with their functions. An easy way to do this is with a Nutritional Almanac. It will give you a sound and basic understanding of all the nutrients and how they work together, but remember that if you are a bodybuilder and training hard you will need considerably higher amounts than the average recommended dosages. I like to get smaller dosages of water soluble vitamins but more often throughout the day. Also, the types of diets I plan require heavy mineral supplementation as dairy products are used sparingly. With large protein meals, it is a good insurance to supplement certain limiting amino acids and free L-Lysine (base).
Like the actual diet, supplementation is dependent, and must be tailored according to what the individual is trying to accomplish. Certain nutrients are more essential in a pre-contest or cutting diet as compared to a bulking diet (and vice-versa).
In conclusion, try to keep your diet individualized and in accordance with your stage of development and training. Keep your program progressive, and if you are on any anabolic steroids, learn what nutrients work best in conjunction with them. A general rule is that most oral steroids work best with a diet high in red meats (water based injectables, too). Most oil-based injectables seem to work better with poultry and eggs, but always keep a good balance in your diet.
MrMakaveli
New member
Didnt huck post a study showing ox kept people in positive nitrogen balance with like no food? Gear changes eveverything, it's that simple
MrMakaveli said:
Yes,it blunted AA exportation during an overnight fast,which is amazing.
