Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below 
Razorguns
Well-known member
Dayum. I'm not talking flame war. But in a thread about conspiracy that the Military shot down United Flight 93. Which well is bullshit. But one guy didn't, and he got major owned!
enjoy
---
I'll tell you one thing...you don't ask for permission to fire when you are 100 miles away, you ask for it when you are already locked on awaiting orders."
Where'd you get that from? Those pilots are preparing themselves to go and shoot down a civilian airliner. The first thing they want to have out of their minds is the fact that this is not a drill, and that they are allowed to do so. They've already got enough on their plate just getting into position to take the shot, as we'll discuss in a moment, to have to worry about whether or not they can pull the trigger in good conscience a few minutes from now. Find me a naval base within operating range of the crash site in Pennsylvania as to where a flight of F-14s could have been scrambled into position to drop a Phoenix on that bird from a hundred miles out. Hell, you find me a solution to getting an AMRAAM on that plane within 30 miles in the time allotted. You ain't going to find one. You can't make up for the separation in time and airspace between the response F-16's and the 60 mile gap at the time it hit the ground- the USAF doesn't have an ATA missile capable of covering that range.
"Dropping thousands of feet in minutes just before the military that flys roughly 3 times their speed could reach them?"
757's have a maximum takeoff weight of 270,000lbs. Them damn things have nothing better to do than accellerate once the stick is pushed over. The autopilot can drop it from operational cruise altitude of 39,000 feet to dirt in 16 minutes at a maximum computer controlled rate of 2900 feet per minute on it's own, which is shorter than the time that it took for the F-16's that approached the Pentagon to turn and attempt to intercept that aircraft in Penn state and still be 60 miles away by all of 10 minutes. Those same F-16's your claim presents were already doing three times the speed of that 757. Afterburner, for all of the Tom Cruise hype, is not instant on accelleration. It takes time for the run up to Mach 2, which blows a sizable hole in the intercept calculation the conspirists like to put forth. That time in straight line accellerating just ends up being more time for whatever was controlling 93 to bring it down.
And we're not even mentioning course correction of your intercept once at speed. I hate to tell you, but turns at two and three times the speed of sound take miles. Even more time wasted. Or the fact that once they get in range of the 757, they have to acquire the target. Contrary to popular opinion on the subject, modern US weapon systems aren't "point and shoot". Newest block F-16's cannot receive downloaded target handoff from AWACS. The FCS isn't capable of doing so. It's old school get the coordinates, point the radar, scan, and bug the target. Again, more time. Better yet, once they DO acquire the target, the jet needs to be put into the applicable missile's WEZ. That's a secondary intercept just to be able to have that missile have a chance of scoring a hit before that pilot pulls the trigger.
Anybody have an idea as to what an air to air missile does to an aircraft at altitude? It doesn't blow it up all big and bright; it rips the target apart. Pieces of aluminum, plastic, and flesh get thrown for miles relative to speed and and height.
Now then, do you know what happens when an aircraft exceeds it's G-rating?
It does the same goddamned thing. And this is a passenger aircraft we're talking about. This isn't some hot fighter we're talking about, made to go 13+ G's over and over again, exceeding what the pilot can handle without losing conciousness by hundreds of footpounds. This is a box, with wings, made to effeciently get from one place to another and never exceed more than 3G tops in doing so. Better yet, try 1 full negative G on a passenger aircraft: engine oil pumps sieze, causing catastrophic failure of the turbines, and immense amounts of structural damage. The sorts of wonderful things that make the crash pattern seen in Pennsylvania.
And what, dear friends, causes negative G? Pushing the stick down abruptly. Same damn thing we like to think the aeronatucially uneducated but heroic souls on 93 did when they stormed the cockpit.
And that hole, if you were paying attention to the news reports, wasn't the only place wreckage was found. There were parts of that plane upwards of 8 miles away. Hell, they found copies of the in-flight magazine the next town over. They had C-130s and B-2's dropping leaflets in Iraq years ago; so what now, is the USAF now dropping copies of SkyMall over PA in the aims of covering up the truth? Gimme a fucking break.
The primary fusilage landed there, but in no way was that everything. And by rights you're clearly unable to tell the difference between the possibilites of what brought that aircraft down.
But that all said, we're left with the best part-
"She was shot down, the burn mark is from a missle or other ordinance and the real place she went down was hidden."
Do you know what jet fuel does when it hits the ground, electrical conduits let go, and spark all over the place?
It burns. It burns like a motherfucker. There have been enough public footage images of aircraft crashing on tarmac with engines out and wings starting to pop to prove that well enough. It's big, it's smokey, and it regularly burns itself out before fire rescue teams have the ability respond. That doesn't just conflict with your "burn mark = ordinance" claim, but it raises one more question?
Where in the fuck did 93 go down, if not there in Pennsylvania? We've got po-dunk photogs snapping pictures of the smoke cloud out in that field from miles around. Name me a place somewhere east of the Mississippi that plane could have been dropped without a similar sight cropping up. Every ground based radar in the United States was on and looking at the sky at 10AM on September 11th, 2001, and those things see for hundreds upon undreds of miles, just for your local run of the mill airport. Do you honestly think that every FAA ATC in the eastern half of the United States just up and missed a 757 walking through our airspace to get dropped by USAF aircraft in some predetermined location? And every one of those ATC's up and said "yeah, I'm not gonna tell a soul what I saw this morning".
Um, yeah. Remove tin foil hat from head, then post.
"Think people think."
Quoth the guy who's education on aeronautics and air to air weapon systems comes from too many HBO reruns of Iron Eagle
enjoy
---
I'll tell you one thing...you don't ask for permission to fire when you are 100 miles away, you ask for it when you are already locked on awaiting orders."
Where'd you get that from? Those pilots are preparing themselves to go and shoot down a civilian airliner. The first thing they want to have out of their minds is the fact that this is not a drill, and that they are allowed to do so. They've already got enough on their plate just getting into position to take the shot, as we'll discuss in a moment, to have to worry about whether or not they can pull the trigger in good conscience a few minutes from now. Find me a naval base within operating range of the crash site in Pennsylvania as to where a flight of F-14s could have been scrambled into position to drop a Phoenix on that bird from a hundred miles out. Hell, you find me a solution to getting an AMRAAM on that plane within 30 miles in the time allotted. You ain't going to find one. You can't make up for the separation in time and airspace between the response F-16's and the 60 mile gap at the time it hit the ground- the USAF doesn't have an ATA missile capable of covering that range.
"Dropping thousands of feet in minutes just before the military that flys roughly 3 times their speed could reach them?"
757's have a maximum takeoff weight of 270,000lbs. Them damn things have nothing better to do than accellerate once the stick is pushed over. The autopilot can drop it from operational cruise altitude of 39,000 feet to dirt in 16 minutes at a maximum computer controlled rate of 2900 feet per minute on it's own, which is shorter than the time that it took for the F-16's that approached the Pentagon to turn and attempt to intercept that aircraft in Penn state and still be 60 miles away by all of 10 minutes. Those same F-16's your claim presents were already doing three times the speed of that 757. Afterburner, for all of the Tom Cruise hype, is not instant on accelleration. It takes time for the run up to Mach 2, which blows a sizable hole in the intercept calculation the conspirists like to put forth. That time in straight line accellerating just ends up being more time for whatever was controlling 93 to bring it down.
And we're not even mentioning course correction of your intercept once at speed. I hate to tell you, but turns at two and three times the speed of sound take miles. Even more time wasted. Or the fact that once they get in range of the 757, they have to acquire the target. Contrary to popular opinion on the subject, modern US weapon systems aren't "point and shoot". Newest block F-16's cannot receive downloaded target handoff from AWACS. The FCS isn't capable of doing so. It's old school get the coordinates, point the radar, scan, and bug the target. Again, more time. Better yet, once they DO acquire the target, the jet needs to be put into the applicable missile's WEZ. That's a secondary intercept just to be able to have that missile have a chance of scoring a hit before that pilot pulls the trigger.
Anybody have an idea as to what an air to air missile does to an aircraft at altitude? It doesn't blow it up all big and bright; it rips the target apart. Pieces of aluminum, plastic, and flesh get thrown for miles relative to speed and and height.
Now then, do you know what happens when an aircraft exceeds it's G-rating?
It does the same goddamned thing. And this is a passenger aircraft we're talking about. This isn't some hot fighter we're talking about, made to go 13+ G's over and over again, exceeding what the pilot can handle without losing conciousness by hundreds of footpounds. This is a box, with wings, made to effeciently get from one place to another and never exceed more than 3G tops in doing so. Better yet, try 1 full negative G on a passenger aircraft: engine oil pumps sieze, causing catastrophic failure of the turbines, and immense amounts of structural damage. The sorts of wonderful things that make the crash pattern seen in Pennsylvania.
And what, dear friends, causes negative G? Pushing the stick down abruptly. Same damn thing we like to think the aeronatucially uneducated but heroic souls on 93 did when they stormed the cockpit.
And that hole, if you were paying attention to the news reports, wasn't the only place wreckage was found. There were parts of that plane upwards of 8 miles away. Hell, they found copies of the in-flight magazine the next town over. They had C-130s and B-2's dropping leaflets in Iraq years ago; so what now, is the USAF now dropping copies of SkyMall over PA in the aims of covering up the truth? Gimme a fucking break.
The primary fusilage landed there, but in no way was that everything. And by rights you're clearly unable to tell the difference between the possibilites of what brought that aircraft down.
But that all said, we're left with the best part-
"She was shot down, the burn mark is from a missle or other ordinance and the real place she went down was hidden."
Do you know what jet fuel does when it hits the ground, electrical conduits let go, and spark all over the place?
It burns. It burns like a motherfucker. There have been enough public footage images of aircraft crashing on tarmac with engines out and wings starting to pop to prove that well enough. It's big, it's smokey, and it regularly burns itself out before fire rescue teams have the ability respond. That doesn't just conflict with your "burn mark = ordinance" claim, but it raises one more question?
Where in the fuck did 93 go down, if not there in Pennsylvania? We've got po-dunk photogs snapping pictures of the smoke cloud out in that field from miles around. Name me a place somewhere east of the Mississippi that plane could have been dropped without a similar sight cropping up. Every ground based radar in the United States was on and looking at the sky at 10AM on September 11th, 2001, and those things see for hundreds upon undreds of miles, just for your local run of the mill airport. Do you honestly think that every FAA ATC in the eastern half of the United States just up and missed a 757 walking through our airspace to get dropped by USAF aircraft in some predetermined location? And every one of those ATC's up and said "yeah, I'm not gonna tell a soul what I saw this morning".
Um, yeah. Remove tin foil hat from head, then post.
"Think people think."
Quoth the guy who's education on aeronautics and air to air weapon systems comes from too many HBO reruns of Iron Eagle
