My Fat Loss plan, advice needed. (Cross-Post)

[OXANDRIN]

Last 3 days 6.5 lbs gone. Water?

for sure!

 

[PwB]

Once again save ketosis will likely be achieved REGARDLESS, one can get into ketosis on an ALL PROTEIN, no fat no carb diet such as a protein sparing modified fast. Being in ketosis means little in terms of fat loss or sparing muscle, getting protein is a must. I'm just trying to help out, any other information you read is WRONG. look for information from LYLE MCDONALD, who knows more about keto diets than anyone and wrote by far the best book on keto diets. If u are worried about the ratios or the diet being high fat/moderate protein, fine, lose more muscle. I'm just giving you the facts and the fact is u need adaquete protein, the ratios mean SHIT. Its from old/misinformation. Ketosis will NOT spare protein if inadaquate protein is ingested, period. This isn't based on what u wanna think/believe it is a fact.

 

[Zagreus]

Once again save ketosis will likely be achieved REGARDLESS, one can get into ketosis on an ALL PROTEIN, no fat no carb diet such as a protein sparing modified fast. look for information from LYLE MCDONALD, who knows more about keto diets than anyone and wrote by far the best book on keto diets.

You are wrong. I also highly doubt you have read any of Lyles books or understand the foundation of his material, BodyOps by Dan Duchane and the Metabolic Diet by Dr. Di Pasquale. The Ketogenic cycle is more sparing to muscle tissues in a dieting environment than the Krebs cycle. Furthermore, you need fat to generate Ketones and to prime the Ketogenic energy cycle unless you are morbidly obese, and even then you need healthy fats.

Protien diet alone will be used by muscle tissues then the remaining protien will be converted to glycogen keeping the Krebs cycle fueled.

No fats and no carbs lead to low blood sugar and a bouncing between the Ketogenic and Kreb cycle when exercise is thrown into the mix. You will feel like shit all the time. Not to mention depriving your body of essential fats.

Before you give advice on nutritional physiology make sure you know what you are talking about. People might actually listen to you and fail miserable.

Zag-

 

[Savage]

Thank you for all the replies.

I failed at my last few diets becasue I changed them too fast, and then just quit when things did not work. I did not even give them the chance to work.

I remember a time when I tried CKD without really reading the material and I was eating fat and protien. But I thought I can eat as much as I want, BOY WAS I WRONG. I was eating a few steaks a day, whole packages of cheese, etc.... Horrible and stupid.

My workouts were great but I wasn't losing weight and quit. Since I was used to eating so much, that mixed in with carbs blew me right up.

I'm sorry no offence to you guys but I'm very confused now.

I'm down to 261.5 35% bodyfat from 269.9 36% bodyfat.

 

[Zagreus]

Savage,

You can due it. Use Mr. X CDK EASY TO USE CKD WORKSHEET! to determine your ratios. Then divide the grams/ calories by the amount of meals to be consumed daily. Use these basic foods as your building blocks for non-carb days:

With a scale, measuring spoons and lable reading you can get your ratios down.

Protien and Fat:
Eggs
Steak
Sausage
Turkey ground
Salmon

Protein:
Isopure Pure Protein Powder
Tuna
Chicken
Any White Fish
Egg Whites

Fat:
Safflower Mayo
Flax Oil
Udos Oil
Olive Oil
Grape Oil
Cream Cheese

Follow seasoned pros not rookies. Just put your faith in Mr. X's programs. They are based upon clinical knowledge and experience. Keep it as simple as possible. Dedicate 1 day a week ( I use Sunday) toward cooking and meal planning. Planning and preparation is half the battle. Commitment to following the planning is the other half. Goto www.massmonsters.com to research Mr. X's articles and to ask fine tunning questions. You can PM me if you need more help. I have some first hand experince and knowledge. My roomate and Lyle used to work together as Lyle was writting his first book. He has also taught me alot. But one thing is for sure I am not an expert. Mr. X is.

Zag-

 

[Savage]

Thanks!

 

[Savage]

Here is what I have been eating. I know I can improve in some areas's. I know its hard to read.

Here is what I have been doing: (from my www.fitday.com journal)

3/3/03
Sex: Male Age: 30
Weight: 269.5 lb


Foods Eaten Today
Food Name Servings Cals Fat Carb Prot
Polish sausage 14 oz, raw (yield after cooking) 1215 106 8 52
European Salad 12 oz 40 0 12 2
Walden Farms Calorie Free Ranch Dressing 4 tablespoon 0 0 0 0
Blue or roquefort cheese dressing 6 tablespoon 463 48 7 4
Chicken Florentine 12 oz 420 15 6 66
Olive oil 4 tablespoon 477 54 0 0
UDO's Oil Caps 2 serving 20 2 0 0
Total Calories 2635 225 33 124

Calories Eaten Today
Total: 2635
Fat: 2029
Saturated: 580
Polyunsat: 392
Monounsat: 920
Carbohydrates: 117
Protein: 498
Alcohol: 0

3/4/03
Weight: 265.5 lb

Foods Eaten Today
Food Name Servings Cals Fat Carb Prot
Head cheese 2 medium slice (4" x 4" x 3/32") (1 oz) 120 9 0 9
Polish sausage 10 oz, raw (yield after cooking) 868 76 6 37
Mustard 1 teaspoon 3 0 0 0
Mushrooms, pickled 3 small 5 0 1 1
Mixed salad greens, raw 2 cup, shredded or chopped 18 0 3 2
Chicken, breast, with or without bone, roasted, skin not eaten 6.25 oz, with bone, cooked, without skin (yield after bone removed) 225 5 0 42
Pork bacon, smoked or cured, cooked 4 oz, cooked 645 55 1 34
Olive oil 3 tablespoon 358 41 0 0
Blue or roquefort cheese dressing 5 tablespoon 386 40 6 4
Finfish, tuna, white, canned in water, drained solids 1 can 220 5 0 41
Total Calories 2848 231 17 169


Calories Eaten
Calories Eaten Today
Total: 2848
Fat: 2080
Saturated: 593
Polyunsat: 395
Monounsat: 988
Carbohydrates: 57
Protein: 678
Alcohol: 0

3/5/03
Weight: 263.5 lb

Foods Eaten Today
Food Name Servings Cals Fat Carb Prot
Egg, whole, fried 5 jumbo 561 42 4 38
Beef, bacon, cooked 4 oz, cooked 503 39 2 35
Cucumber pickles, dill 4.75 medium (3-3/4" long) 56 1 13 2
Beef, round, top round, separable lean only, trimmed to 1/4" fat, prime, raw 22 oz 954 39 0 142
Onions, mature, raw 2 small 53 0 12 2
Pepper, sweet, red, raw 1 large (2.25 per pound, approx 3-3/4" long, 3" dia) 44 0 11 1
Celery, raw 5 medium stalk (7-1/2" - 8" long) 32 0 7 2
Mixed salad greens, raw 2 cup, shredded or chopped 18 0 3 2
Olive oil 2 tablespoon 239 27 0 0
UDO's Oil Caps 4 serving 40 4 0 0
VS Flaxseed oil 1 tablespoon 130 14 0 0
Blue or roquefort cheese dressing 3 tablespoon 231 24 3 2
Crustaceans, crab, alaska king, imitation, made from surimi 4.5 oz 130 2 13 15
Total Calories 2992 192 68 241


Calories Eaten
Calories Eaten Today
Total: 2992
Fat: 1729
Saturated: 470
Polyunsat: 373
Monounsat: 726
Carbohydrates: 210
Protein: 966
Alcohol: 0

3/6/02 ( Not Complete yet)

Weight: 261.5 lb Weight Goal: 225 lb by 05/01/2003



My Daily Journal
Fired up on Charge. No appetite.


Foods Eaten Today
Food Name Servings Cals Fat Carb Prot
Egg, whole, fried 4 jumbo 449 34 3 31
Beef, bacon, cooked 3 oz, cooked 377 29 1 26
Cucumber pickles, dill 4 medium (3-3/4" long) 47 0 11 2
Beef, short loin, top loin, separable lean only, trimmed to 1/4" fat, prime, cooked, broiled 11 oz 764 42 0 89
Mixed salad greens, raw 3 cup, shredded or chopped 27 0 5 3
Blue or roquefort cheese dressing 4 tablespoon 308 32 5 3
Olive oil 1 tablespoon 119 14 0 0
Walden Farms Calorie Free Ranch Dressing 2 fl oz 0 0 0 0
Chicken, breast, with or without bone, broiled, skin not eaten 2.5 oz, boneless, cooked, skinless 115 2 0 22
VS Flaxseed oil 2 tablespoon 260 28 0 0
Total Calories 2466 182 24 175


Activities Done Today
Activity Time Spent Cals Burned
Weight lifting (free weight, nautilus, or universal-type), power lifting or body building, vigorous effort 1:00 505
Wash dishes 0:05 11
Total Calories Burned 515


Calories Eaten Today
Total: 2466
Fat: 1639
Saturated: 443
Polyunsat: 448
Monounsat: 612
Carbohydrates: 71
Protein: 700
Alcohol: 0


The carbs mostly come from green stuff.

 

[PwB]

Zagreus, u really don't know anything, do you. First off Bodyopus is WAY outdated. The information is shit. Ketosis per se is not protein sparing. Adaquate protein intake is absolutely required to spare muscle on ANY diet, ketogenic or not. I happen to own Lyle's book, have read it thoroughly, and happen to talk to Lyle every few days through email. I also read everything he talks about on other discussion boards.

Ketosis and Krebs cycle dont run completely independ of one another. From Lyle. Fatty acids can not be completely oxidized without sufficient fuel for the krebs cycle (I forget offhand which is the limiting step, maybe oxaloacetate). It doesn't really matter in the big scheme of things. Anyhow, when your body needs more oxaloacetate, it will get it by taking certain amino acids, glycerol, and lactate through gluconeogenesis to make glucose. Kreb's won't run at full tilt, but it doesn't stop completely (or reverse as some of hte anti-keto nitwits have stated).

You have it ass-backwards as many ignorant people do regarding ketosis, even DiPasquale repeats this crap in his Metabolic Diet (which is a cut and paste of his old Anabolic Diet w/ little new information) To establish ketosis, what is necessary is the ABSENCE of carbs, not the presence of fat. It is when glucose levels are low that ketosis can develop, and again, I repeat, ketosis can EASILY be established on a low carb, low fat diet w/ adaquete protein, and ketosis ALSO develops during complete starvation, when no food is ingested. One does NOT need to eat a high fat diet to be in ketosis. Eating fat DOES NOT increase fat burning activity, keeping carbs and calories low DOES. But u obviously can't read, nor can u understand my recommendations. It was to increase protein slightly (on Mon) to get 1g protein per lb. each day. I didnt recommend no fat, Its a well known fact that fats are necessary in the diet, I wasn't argueing that. Do u even know which fats ARE necessary??

Some recent quotes from Lyle Mcdonald regarding keto diets.

Setting the diet up:
"yeah, you forgot to create a caloric deficit. Very important to a fat
loss diet.

Also, forget percentages, set up the diet this way
a. set calories for fat loss: 10-12 cal/lb is a good starting place
b. set protein: 0.9-1 g/lb lean body mass
c. set carbs: even at minimum figure 10 g/day
d. the rest is fat: so subtract total calories from 'b' and 'c' from 'a'

In practice you end up with roughly a 50/50 protein:fat ratio but it
still doesn't matter."

"yes, it does. Excess protein will produce so much glucose that ketosis
doesn't develop.
But ketosis just doesn't appear to be that big of a deal in the first
place. Not for dieting applications anyhow. It certainly doesn't have
the impact on overall body copm changes that anybody (including Dan) had
hoped for. I'd rather see adequate protein intake than ketosis given
the choice."

"Carbohydrate is 100% anti-ketogenic, hence it's value of 1.
Protein is ~58% anti-ketogenic (because 58% of protein can be converted
to glucose) (and 42% ketogenic) hence it's value.
Fat is 100% ketogenic.

My point is that ketosis just doesn't seem to be that big of a deal for
the most part. Some studies (for review see Elia) suggest that it only
spares protein between a range of bodyfat percentage (~15-40% or so).
Both above and below that the effect is negligble (although for
different reasons). AS well, the studies showing a pronounced effect of
ketosis in terms of protein sparing are either during starvation (and
not everyone agrees that it's a true protein sparing effect, some think
that the reduction in nitrogen loss is due solely to a reduction in
metabolic rate) or when protein intake is inadequate to begin with.

But at a fundamental level, the best way to spare protein is to eat
enough protein in the first place. Ketosis would be purely secondary to
that. If being in ketosis requires you to eat inadequate protein, I
consider that a poor trade-off. 0.9-1 g/lb LBM of protein will allow
ketosis in most people, as long as carbs are low enough. Strict
application of the KR (or the 30/70 ratios) within the context of a
reduced calorie diet put most people at inadequate protein intakes.

But, for epileptic children, inadequate protein intake (and make no
mistake, their protein intakes are inadequate and many show impaired
growth and catch-up growth when they go off the diet) is if secondary
importance to seizure control.

Hence, the KR assumes different levels of importance depending on what
population you're talking about. For dieters, protein comes first,
ketosis comes second; for epileptic children, ketosis (and apparently
deep ketosis) comes first, protein comes second."

I can keep going but its a waste of my time trying to teach a troll. Once again, I never recommended an all protein diet and when u learn to read you'll realize what I said.

 

[Zagreus]

PwB ,

First let me apologize for flaming you. I could have argued more productively. So lets stop the flaming please.

I agree with you for the most part. I am guilty of oversimplifying and being too critical of your all protein statement. We are saying basically the same thing, though I am going more conservative for the layman, which I am sure you can understand.

I agree with the amount of protein you say to consume. I took issue for the layman because from my personal past keto diet failures due to not enough fat consumption in a low to no carb environment. I find I need at least 30% fat with the rest coming from protein and ancillary carbs to succeed in a keto diet. Otherwise, I bounce in and out of ketosis because of the glycogen produced from the excess protein intake. I then end up having low energy and feel like shit. My roommate whom worked with Lyle during his Body-Ops program and his subsequent first book also had similar failures until he raised his fat. You may know him, he is a bio-chemist with an emphasis in human physiology "Alexi Vinogradov." He will not take any less than 50% fat in his daily consumption and consistently maintains 5-8% body fat year around on CKD.

Lastly:

I can keep going but its a waste of my time trying to teach a troll.

You are not wasting your time. Save your posts in word and cut and past them. They help alot of people.

Kind Regards,

Zag-

 

[PwB]

Zag, flaming is over. Sorry too.

Glad u got the point of what I was saying. As an interesting side not, it seems that your roomate adapted well to the high fat intake. New research is showing there are differences in peoples abilities to utilize fats efficiently as energy, high fat and low fat phenotypes. I personally dont handle higher fat intakes well, so I usually follow a high protein, low carb, moderate fat diet. I agree fat intake generally shouldn't go fat below 30% of energy. It has the benefits of providing fats for hormone production, fullness, EFA requirements, food variety, etc. I've tried low carbs and low fat and it isn't fun, I agree. Although it can work well, if protein is high enough (like 2g per lb) it can be used as an expensive glucose source. Charles Poliqun and Dr. Serrano and beverly international all use this technique to lean clients out.