Is The Information In This Book All Wrong?!

[einstein1905]

If I am notorious for being selective in what I refernece, as you say, then surely you can enlighten us with a number of examples Einstein.

First of all, I didn't know you were on this board, so that's a bit of egg on my face.
The "why nolva is superior to clomid" for HPTA purposes is the first thing that comes to mind. There's no way you can't admit now, after myself and many others have posted numerous studies to refute that claim and also pointed out the impractical durations of use in the 3 ancient studies you did cite, that clomid is far superior to nolva for the purposes of increasing gonadotropins and therefore test.
That article pops up on boards at least once per week, and several people have to go around cleaning things up and explaining why it's incorrect. I figured because I've never once seen you post on the issue (although I rarely come here), that you don't post on the boards.

I guess if I saw that you admitted to oversight on your part regarding this article, I'd have a different opinion of things, but as it is, far too many people are under the impression that nolva and clomid are interchangeable, and even worse, that nolva actually is a better pct SERM.

This is just one of the examples where clomid is shown to be the far better choice, and even here there are many relevant studies (most of which also favor clomid) that are omitted:
clomid vs nolva

 

[thx9000]

Nolva (not clomid) does lower serum IGF-1 levels...

Study one

Plasma concentrations of IGF-I decreased by 31.5% (434 +/- 84 versus 297 +/- 71 ng/ml; P: < 0.05) after 5 days of clomiphene therapy, whereas plasma concentrations of IGFBP-1 increased by approximately 28.1% (26.3 +/- 4 versus 36.6 +/- 7 ng/ml; P: < 0.05).

Study two

In normal subjects, CC treatment led to a significant increase in estradiol (84 +/- 10 to 234 +/- 62 pmol/L, untreated and CC treated; P < 0.05) and estrone (125 +/- 14 to 257 +/- 29 pmol/L; P < 0.05) levels with a significant lowering of IGF-I levels (297 +/- 25 to 230 +/- 17 micrograms/L; P < 0.05). Similarly, in PCOS patients a significant increase in estradiol (110 +/- 11 to 245 +/- 58 pmol/L; P < 0.05) and estrone (301 +/- 32 to 401 +/- 90 pmol/L; P < 0.05) levels and a significant lowering of IGF-I levels (330 +/- 43 to 214 +/- 27 micrograms/L; P < 0.05) were observed after CC treatment.

 

[einstein1905]

Study one

Plasma concentrations of IGF-I decreased by 31.5% (434 +/- 84 versus 297 +/- 71 ng/ml; P: < 0.05) after 5 days of clomiphene therapy, whereas plasma concentrations of IGFBP-1 increased by approximately 28.1% (26.3 +/- 4 versus 36.6 +/- 7 ng/ml; P: < 0.05).

Study two

In normal subjects, CC treatment led to a significant increase in estradiol (84 +/- 10 to 234 +/- 62 pmol/L, untreated and CC treated; P < 0.05) and estrone (125 +/- 14 to 257 +/- 29 pmol/L; P < 0.05) levels with a significant lowering of IGF-I levels (297 +/- 25 to 230 +/- 17 micrograms/L; P < 0.05). Similarly, in PCOS patients a significant increase in estradiol (110 +/- 11 to 245 +/- 58 pmol/L; P < 0.05) and estrone (301 +/- 32 to 401 +/- 90 pmol/L; P < 0.05) levels and a significant lowering of IGF-I levels (330 +/- 43 to 214 +/- 27 micrograms/L; P < 0.05) were observed after CC treatment.

Touche.

I just did the very thing I accused others of doing, neglecting studies. fair enough, and I'll admit that I did so, but again, these studies refer to serum IGF-1 and not intramuscular IGF-1 (IGF-1Ea), which is a different isotype and hasn't (to my knowledge) been showned to decrease with SERM use.

 

[thx9000]

Touche.

I just did the very thing I accused others of doing, neglecting studies. fair enough, and I'll admit that I did so, but again, these studies refer to serum IGF-1 and not intramuscular IGF-1 (IGF-1Ea), which is a different isotype and hasn't (to my knowledge) been showned to decrease with SERM use.

Just because it hasn't been shown in a study doesn't mean it does or doesn't, it might just mean that the study hasn't been done. Likewise, this is all extrapolation at best. Even studies on "normal subjects" are only loosely relevant to our cause. Once you start shooting 350mg of tren and 400mg of test into your body EW you kind’a loose all frame of reference.

 

[Ulter]

Hi Bill,

Still arguing the nolva vs clomid argument are we? Some things never change. Clomid still works better Bill. But only marginally. I have seen many guys who have used clomid several times switch to nolva/HCG (on my recommmendation of your recommendation ) because of the vision problems with clomid and they say there is no difference in the final result.

Einstein, you should search his posts. He's got arguments going back several years here. Any of the ones you see my name on he lost of course.

Carth, it's a good book and a great place to start. I don't agree with all of it but there is nothing better in print.

 

[Smokescreen]

So bottom line is read the book, learn the knowledge from it. But still, ask and confirm my knowledge here on this great forum???

 

[hammertime30]

So bottom line is read the book, learn the knowledge from it. But still, ask and confirm my knowledge here on this great forum???

Don't forget about paying attention to how things react in your body because that's something that no one else can say!

 

[psychedout]

I'm not sure about the AAS info.

But do not trust any of the lab tests in that book. If you think the publishers of the book have nothing to gain finincially by publishing the lab tests in there, then think again.

 

[einstein1905]

Einstein, you should search his posts. He's got arguments going back several years here. Any of the ones you see my name on he lost of course.

I will search his posts here. it was my bad for jumping the gun saying he doesn't post on the boards.

For anyone that's taken a look at the full body of literature out there that pertains to either clomid's or nolva's effects on gonadotropins, and subsequently, test, then there should be no question in anyone's mind which is better, especially when you consider the duration of use of either. Clomid's acute effects on gonadotropins are far superior to nolva, and that's really what's relevant to us.

I'm off to read his posts

 

[poantrex]

Hmm, I know that aromasin is the strongest estrogen inhibitor - there are many studies that have shown this. The difference isn't huge (between aromasin and letrozole), but aromasin has the advantage of not altering ones lipid profile at all, while anastrozole and letrozole do quite a bit.