Gotta have carbs to burn fat

[Gladiola]

You won't find lit on this. Probably take the scientific/nutritional community 10+ years to do a study.

If the scientific community has not done a study, how does anyone know that it's true?
(Don't you agree that one or 2, or even 12 ppl don't prove a theory??)

If you understand Krebs, fatty acid oxidation, the need for pyruvate to maintain Krebs cycle intermediates and how when they are depleted, fat oxidation slows and ketones increase and ATP production decreases, then it will all make sense.

No, I don't fully understand these things, but have read about them and am currently ATTEMPTING to. If understanding these theories will be sufficient proof of the effectiveness of carb cycling, then you've answered my question as to where I can go for scientific justification. Which is all I was asking for.

 

[Gladiola]

Spatts,

I'd appreciate that!

 

[KBgrl]

And that, is the gosple truth - Can I get an Amen!?!

AMEN daaaaddy!

 

[SteelWeaver]

Aaaaaa----MEN!

 

[KBgrl]

Aaaaaa----MEN!

Aaaaaa-- woMEN!

 

[MS]

Gladiola, I also can't imagine anyone ever funding a double blind placebo controlled cross over study of a large number of bodybuilders to address the question of whether a carb inclusive diet is better than a ketogenic diet for fat loss with maximal muscle retention. To me it sounds like this is what you're asking for as "proof". You will find no proof. You will find plenty of people over on the diet board who religiously believe in ketogenic diets for fat loss. The fact is, if calories are below maintenance you will lose weight no matter what diet you use. Obese couch potatoes LOVE Atkin's becasue they can eat all the greasy slimey food they desire, and they are not worried about retaining or gaining muscle. Their appetite dies a natural death as well. They just like to see the scales go down, though as Daeo pointed out, their basal metabolism will also drop from lack of T3 conversion, and heaven help them if they ever go back to eating carbs again. You will find people who adore CKD diets. These are hard core to optimize and follow, and only allow you two intense training days per week. I have known virtually no females who didn't suffer bad rebound fat gain when coming off a CKD, and I don't know of any top level BB competitors who use this diet. The proof is in the pudding as my grandma would say. You will find folks who will drag out references to Inuit Eskimos, epileptic children etc.... as "proof" that ketogenic diets aren't bad for ya. Whatever. I'm a body BUILDER. Bodies are built on carbs. Even the Inuit Eskimos had a very high protein intake most of the year, a lot of which their body no doubt converted to carbs to build muscle necessary for their survival. It seems an expensive way to get carbs from my perspective (unless you live in the furthest reaches of Alaska). I haven't met any epileptic kids on keto diets who were bodybuilders either (but then again I haven't met any epileptic kids on keto diets).

I'm just guessing here that Wilson6 was taking a stab at the proliferation of very low carb diets and their faithful converted ranks. Surely you don't need an article in a prominent nutrition journal for this to make some sense for bodybuilders???

 

[wilson6]

"If the scientific community has not done a study, how does anyone know that it's true? "

Because it works.

Don't take my word for it, try it. Go ketogenic for 12 weeks, and have your body comp measured. Then carb rotate for 12 weeks and check it again. Keep everything else constant.

As MS said, no one cares about bodybuilders. Besides, when it comes to this area (diet and ergogenic drugs) just look at how it is approached by the scientific community.

It took them until 1996 to prove them injecting testosterone built muscle. My guess is that they will come around with the diet info sometime in 2010.

Besides, just because there is a study or two on something doesn't mean anything. Whether it works or not in real life is what is important.

This board is one of the few places you'll ever find real life information on diet, training, supplements and ergogenic drugs.

W6

 

[Gladiola]

OK, I was primarily confused b/c I had the impression that this was something there wasn't a *consensus* on. There are certainly plenty of gray areas... for example, is it appropriate to train chest and back together? Is it right to stretch first & not warm-up?

I had the impression that carb cycling was one of these gray things... i.e. it works wonders for some, but is not necessarily the perfect/best/wonderful way to eat. If it were, why hasn't everyone been doing it all along? Perfect Example... My sister, VooDoo Lady, similar body type to me, obviously same genetics, achieved that body with 60% protein STEADY (no cycling).

Now that I see via this thread that there does seem to be a consensus about the efficacy of cycling, I am much more convinced.

Lobo - if I considered AS, no question I would come here & trust everyone's experience! I also wouldn't have options for sources since there aren't scientific studies. BUT.. there's lots of research on Ketosis, why wouldn't there be research on Carb cycling????

MS, Good point that ppl don't care about Body Builders! Thanks for the info.

OK, now how about those ratios????
Spatts Posted once the following "1) Cycle the carbs, 3 days low and 2 days high. 50g is low, 150g is high.

2) Shoot for at least 1800 cals. On your low carb days, make up the caloric difference with extra protein. "
"You would have to alter the times by when you train, and cycle the carbs 3 days low (.5g/kg body weight) and 2 days high (2.0g/kg body weight). "

Weighing 135 LBS, this equals Low carb: 31 Gram, High: 122 gram. I had been aiming for ratios of 40%P, 30C, 30F. Apparently that would be my breakdown on a high carb day. So to still reach close to 2,000 cal on a low carb day, I'd have nearly 300 gram Protein & 60% protein? Yikes!

Is this appropriate for both bulking & cutting?
I won't go keto - I don't need to deal with BKH (Bitchy Ketogenic Haze) - I'm evil enough on my own!
Someone just tell me what to eat! & I'll shut up!

 

[Gladiola]

my trainer assures me that if he did the same his intestines would be on strike and he'd have no friends.

You all will probably be able to appreciate & see the humor in this! My boyfriend said I WOKE HIM UP the other night cuz a protein fart was so stinky! he he
That's at between 150 - 200 Gram. That is a SIGNIFICANT increase for me from when I got on Elite in early November & Spatts smacked some sense into me.

Sooo... if I were to rotate and still stay within 1,600 - 2,000 cal per day, maybe I could do 40% pro some days, 50% other days?????

I'm using fitday.com for the percentages. I know how many calories & grams of protein foods have, but I don't know how that converts to PERCENT of cals from protein. Is there a formula for that?

How long should I stick with 40%P-30C-30F before trying to rotate????? I'm thinking the variety of rotation might be good for me mentally though (easier to stick with).

 

[Gladiola]

I think you're making this too hard.

umm, what am I doing different than anyone else?????? - I simply want to know the ideal total calories, and the ideal break down of P F C for me to eat. I also need to know how to track it (what sense is it to know I should eat X Grams of carbs if I don't subsequently keep track of the carbs I put in my mouth????)

Just tell me what to eat then! & I don't eat steak, so that's going to have to be replaced with something on your cutting diet. & I will not eat the same thing every day... so I'm going to have to track how many cals & protein grams anyway....

Cooking is enough of a pain, it would definitely make things harder than they need to be to cook chicken & fish & steak EVERY day.. no way. I cook a bunch of chicken to have for a few days, a bunch of fish for a few days, etc.

Besides, I just don't WANT to eat the same thing everyday & it's more healthy to get your nutrients from a variety of sources (yes, so long as they are all clean healthy foods).

So what am I doing that's making this hard?