after 1AD... clomid? Trib? ZMA?

[pa1ad]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: after 1AD... clomid? Trib? ZMA?

The body doesn't need help raising LH. LH levels rise and fall rapidly, in direct relation to sex steroid levels. The weak link in the HPTA is the testes, which can't respond well to LH due to artophy. This is the whole problem post cycle, not increasing LH.

Anti-estrogens/aromatase inhibitors do a good job of stimulating the HPTA when it is intact and there are normal estrogen levels, but do little post cycle, regardless of the length of drug use. If there are high LH levels already, and little estrogen to deal with in the first place because T is suppressed, how would these types of drugs do anything of value?


- Bill

Also, lets say your theory is true (which i do not think it is in the first place). If the testes are unresponsive to elevated LH post cycle then what CAN you do? Certainly HCG won't work either, since its just an LH mimic.

 

[blackdream71]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: after 1AD... clomid? Trib? ZMA?

Also, lets say your theory is true (which i do not think it is in the first place). If the testes are unresponsive to elevated LH post cycle then what CAN you do? Certainly HCG won't work either, since its just an LH mimic.

that's a good point!

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: after 1AD... clomid? Trib? ZMA?

This seems in direct contrast to everything i have read on the subject, and actual blood assays i have seen on suppressed steroid users. LH/FSH is almost always suppressed in these people as well as testosterone. I do not know where you are getting your data from. I am interested in seeing documentation of this Bill.

I will cite reference later when in the office. But I am not talking about during the cycle Pat. I am talking post cycle. Of course LH levels become suppressed while taking steroids. They also reboud very rapidly.

Also, there is literature that shows marked effects from clomid use on suppressed steroid users (with suppressed gonadtopins as well as sex hormones).

Anti-estrogens would be effective if prolonged suppression were caused by insufficient gonadotropins, which they are in some people, but the issue post-cycle is typically very different.

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: after 1AD... clomid? Trib? ZMA?

Also, lets say your theory is true (which i do not think it is in the first place). If the testes are unresponsive to elevated LH post cycle then what CAN you do? Certainly HCG won't work either, since its just an LH mimic.

HCG is about the best thing. It compliments the heightened endo LH with a bolus level of stimulation. In my experience it is the only thing that really effects post-cycle recovery. But I see where you are going, and no, there is no magic bullet. The testes need to restore their old size, which does take time first and foremost.


- Bill

 

[pa1ad]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: after 1AD... clomid? Trib? ZMA?

HCG is about the best thing. It compliments the heightened endo LH with a bolus level of stimulation. In my experience it is the only thing that really effects post-cycle recovery. But I see where you are going, and no, there is no magic bullet. The testes need to restore their old size, which does take time first and foremost.


- Bill

Or use an anti-estrogen to raise your levels of LH to supraphysiological levels to speed up the recovery of the testes.

And so we are right back where we started

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: after 1AD... clomid? Trib? ZMA?

Or use an anti-estrogen to raise your levels of LH to supraphysiological levels to speed up the recovery of the testes.

And so we are right back where we started

Yes, right back to assuming that anti-estrognes will have an additive effect when LH levels are already elevated, and T and E2 levels suppressed.

- Bill

 

[pa1ad]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: after 1AD... clomid? Trib? ZMA?

Yes, right back to assuming that anti-estrognes will have an additive effect when LH levels are already elevated, and T and E2 levels suppressed.

- Bill

I don't recall ever seeing anyone with elevated LH and suppressed T and E post cycle. Not that it cannot happen, but usually gonadotropins and sex hormones are simultaneously suppressed

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: after 1AD... clomid? Trib? ZMA?

I don't recall ever seeing anyone with elevated LH and suppressed T and E post cycle. Not that it cannot happen, but usually gonadotropins and sex hormones are simultaneously suppressed

They are simultaneously suppressed when steroids are initiated, but return to normal at very different rates once the steroids are discontinued. That is the whole problem post cycle. LH becomes elevated quickly, but the testes don't respond right away because they have lost mass. I'll post the reference showing this clearly tomorrow, but to sum up it shows that even while testosterone levels were still declining (T. Enanthate was given), LH was already going back up. LH levels peaked long before Testosterone returned to normal.

 

[blackdream71]

hahahahahaha, two steroid gurus going at it, i love this kinda shit.......

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

The study is: Acta Endocrinol 78 (1975) 373-84 "Effect is long-term testosterone oenanthate administration...". It is a very good paper looking at hormone levels many weeks/months after steroid administration. About the most detailed one I could find.

If you look at the graphs on pg. 379 you will see clearly that LH is on the rise 2 or 3 weeks after the steroid is ended. But after hitting baseline however, T doesn't really start responding for quite some time thereafter (and it does so very slowly), in spite of the rising and substantial LH levels.

I'll give you that anti-estrogens, and fostering LH along the way by blocking the minor feedback from returning T and e2 levels, are not totally worthless. But it is just that the key issue post-cycle is testicular atrophy, not worrying so much about suppressed LH.


- Bill