Whole foods PWO?

[joe d]

for me. spiking my insulin with sugar as soon as i stop lifting instantly puts me back into an anabolic state. i can feel the difference and i know it is the best thing i can do before i even leave the gym. i chug down a bottle of juice and i can feal my muscles filling back up before i even get to my truck. whole foods will not do that for me. they will take longer to become effective and keep me to full for my next meal 30 minutes later. where i drink a 80g protein 100g carb shake. its all in the person and their size. as i get bigger i notice my muscles acting more sensitively to what i feed them. early am and post w/o thet are like a gauge i can tell when i have eaten enough because they feal full.

 

[desmond]

HONEY v MALTODEXTRIN

Effects of ingesting protein with various forms of carbohydrate following resistance-exercise on substrate availability and markers of anabolism, catabolism, and immunity.

Kreider RB, Earnest CP, Lundberg J, Rasmussen C, Greenwood M, Cowan P, Almada AL.
Exercise & Sport Nutrition Lab, Center for Exercise, Nutrition and Preventive Health, Baylor University, Waco, TX, USA. [email protected].

ABSTRACT: BACKGROUND: Ingestion of carbohydrate (CHO) and protein (PRO) following intense exercise has been reported to increase insulin levels, optimize glycogen resynthesis, enhance PRO synthesis, and lessen the immuno-suppressive effects of intense exercise. Since different forms of CHO have varying glycemic effects, the purpose of this study was to determine whether the type of CHO ingested with PRO following resistance-exercise affects blood glucose availability and insulin levels, markers of anabolism and catabolism, and/or general immune markers. METHODS: 40 resistance-trained subjects performed a standardized resistance training workout and then ingested in a double blind and randomized manner 40 g of whey PRO with 120 g of sucrose (S), honey powder (H), or maltodextrin (M). A non-supplemented control group (C) was also evaluated. Blood samples were collected prior to and following exercise as well as 30, 60, 90, and 120 min after ingestion of the supplements. Data were analyzed by repeated measures ANOVA or ANCOVA using baseline values as a covariate if necessary. RESULTS: Glucose concentration 30 min following ingestion showed the H group (7.12 +/- 0.2 mmol/L) to be greater than S (5.53 +/- 0.6 mmol/L; p < 0.03); M (6.02 +/- 0.8 mmol/L; p < 0.05), and C (5.44 +/- 0.18 mmol/L; p < 0.0002) groups. No significant differences were observed among groups in glucose area under the curve (AUC) values, although the H group showed a trend versus control (p = 0.06). Insulin response for each treatment was significant by time (p < 0.0001), treatment (p < 0.0001) and AUC (p < 0.0001). 30-min peak post-feeding insulin for S (136.2 +/- 15.6 uIU/mL), H (150.1 +/- 25.39 uIU/mL), and M (154.8 +/- 18.9 uIU/mL) were greater than C (8.7 +/- 2.9 uIU/mL) as was AUC with no significant differences observed among types of CHO. No significant group x time effects were observed among groups in testosterone, cortisol, the ratio of testosterone to cortisol, muscle and liver enzymes, or general markers of immunity. CONCLUSION: CHO and PRO ingestion following exercise significantly influences glucose and insulin concentrations. Although some trends were observed suggesting that H maintained blood glucose levels to a better degree, no significant differences were observed among types of CHO ingested on insulin levels. These findings suggest that each of these forms of CHO can serve as effective sources of CHO to ingest with PRO in and attempt to promote post-exercise anabolic responses.
__________________
January Research Review (learn at your own risk):
http://user210805.websitewizard.com/files/unprotected/AARR-Jan-2008.pdf

 

[gjohnson5]

I posted that study today in the other thread
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/d...give-me-your-advice-618806-7.html#post8557033

It clearly states that the bottom that cortisol and testosterone were unaffected by excess carbs ingested for anabolism
It also states that no significant differences were observed in the types of CHO absorbed

The the above is true then what is the point of spiking insulin PWO. Why not absorb those carbs pre workout to help fuel and reduce muscle microtrama during the workout? This way you could eat more nutrient dense foods instead of eating empty calories such as sugars

 

[desmond]

it does intuitively make more sense to consume carbs pre/post and than just post - more energy, less cortisol intra-workout, and more nutrients simply because WMS has none.

I'm sure many will disagree, but I'd personally think milk is perfect pre-workout - low GI, bit high II

I posted that study today in the other thread
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/d...give-me-your-advice-618806-7.html#post8557033

It clearly states that the bottom that cortisol and testosterone were unaffected by excess carbs ingested for anabolism
It also states that no significant differences were observed in the types of CHO absorbed

The the above is true then what is the point of spiking insulin PWO. Why not absorb those carbs pre workout to help fuel and reduce muscle microtrama during the workout? This way you could eat more nutrient dense foods instead of eating empty calories such as sugars

 

[gjohnson5]

it does intuitively make more sense to consume carbs pre/post and than just post - more energy, less cortisol intra-workout, and more nutrients simply because WMS has none.

I'm sure many will disagree, but I'd personally think milk is perfect pre-workout - low GI, bit high II

Milk has a high insulin response. I think milk being listed as Low GI gives people a false sense of security. Milk sugar = lactose. It's 2 simple sugars glucose and galactose bound together by an OH bond. Once the bond is broken, the 2 sugars are monosaccharides and will immediately raise blood sugar. I'm not sure where galactose is on the GI scale because it's generally not listed .. (which is another reason why I generally take issue with milk being listed as low GI)

 

[desmond]

Milk has a high insulin response. I think milk being listed as Low GI gives people a false sense of security. Milk sugar = lactose. It's 2 simple sugars glucose and galactose bound together by an OH bond. Once the bond is broken, the 2 sugars are monosaccharides and will immediately raise blood sugar. I'm not sure where galactose is on the GI scale because it's generally not listed .. (which is another reason why I generally take issue with milk being listed as low GI)

Yeah, I said milk had high II ("insulin index") in my post.

ONe of the reasons for its high II is whey protein, and synergestic insulin responses of protein and carbs (see II of baked beans).

I don't really have a problem with consuming something with high II pre-workout - would seem to be a positive if anything. I mean its all dose dependent too.

 

[gjohnson5]

Yeah, I said milk had high II ("insulin index") in my post.

ONe of the reasons for its high II is whey protein, and synergestic insulin responses of protein and carbs (see II of baked beans).

I don't really have a problem with consuming something with high II pre-workout - would seem to be a positive if anything. I mean its all dose dependent too.

Gotcha
Yeah I ususally use the term glycaemic load

 

[jwo02]

I am bulking and holding water, and my BF is only 12%. Plus, my pathetically pale skin reflected off the bathroom lights doesn't help the cause. Just because I am not ripped to shreds at the moment doesn't mean I don't know how to diet. Please. Just another sign of your ignorance.


BTW, I weigh 225lbs with 18" arms. How much do you weigh? 175 with a 14.5" arm?

Yep, you are stacked bro. Go eat something, because you might blow away in the wind if you walk outside.

16 1/4'' arms.


Yeah, I weigh 51 pounds less then you, probably less body fat(when I say probably I mean definitely), and my arms aren't much smaller then yours.


Not to mention I could almost definitely hang with you on core lifts.


EDIT:

Oh, and if you really wanna get down to how else I'm better then you, I run a 4.59 40 yard. By the looks of your avatar we'd need a calendar to time yours.

 

[dabuffguy]

I said 12%, not 10%(nice post edit, lol). Plus, that pic was taken 4 weeks ago at the end of my kicker with a-bombs, where I was holding quite a bit of water at almost 230 lbs. Which effectively gave me the appearance of having 14-15% BF, when in fact it is only 12%. I dropped to 223 in like a week, and have since then added 2 pounds, to come to my stated 225.

I respectfully do think your PWO regimen is extreme overkill.

How long do you work out for? What are your rest breaks, rep ranges, exercise type (compound v isolation).

To put it this way, it is unlikely one hour of weights burns more than 100 carbs. Typical estimates of weights is taht it burns less than < 500 cals (except perhap for a leg only routine), and even assuming 80% of what is burned is carbs (whilst weights are anerobic, u'd burn some fat during rest breaks etc), that still leaves you with 100 carbs.

Inflate all these figures significantly (which are already generous), and we could generously say you may have burned 150 carbs (which I doubt).

YOu have:
- 60g WMS carbs;
- 60g Oat carbs
- say 10 green veggies carbs
- unsure ur brown rice carbs, but I'm guessing quite possibly another 60.
- another 40 milk carbs
- likely carbs from some glucogenisis of whey

So your getting 200+ carbs PWO. Seems a tad too much IMO - but if its working for you fine.

Some of those carbs coudl be useful pre-workout, unless your goal is to increase natural GH release during exericse (although apparnetly effect of this is minor).

I don't have exact figures, but there is as far as I'm aware of a maximum rate of glycogen resynthesis (indeed, tour de france and marathon runners burn more cals in comp that this rate).

Oh, I know it's a little over the top. I do it on purpose. Someone asked me what I am currently doing, so I posted it up.

I'm ectomorphic, and have a fast metabolism. Extra carbs don't really hurt me too bad. When I'm bulking I could care less how fat I get, because I'll never get way tubby. I'm just not built that way. I could eat 7000 calories a day an I wouldn't reach 20% BF.

Since I leave work to the gym, I just down a RTD shake. has 230 cals. 15 g protein, like 35grams of sugar. Yeah yeah, it's sugar I know. I'm bulking, so who cares? Just to get someting in the body.


And to anyone who is saying I look fat in my avi is retarded. Go take some anadrol and test and see what happens. As of right now, my lower abs show through, so i'm not even close to fat or even slightly tubby. I have maybe 5 lbs of extra fat on me that I could do away with and I'd look lean, but what 5 pounds when you're bulking? Pffft.

 

[dabuffguy]

Personally it looks to be all fat based on that approach as well.


"All fat" as in 7 lbs of water from the a-bombs? Nah. Lower abs show through. Barely, but they're there. I couldn't possibly be higher than 13%. Still stand by 12% though. I have a 32. The angle, my white ghostly skin, and the bathroom lights in the pic wash it out too.


Well it looks to be overkill.

I agree. But, since I'm bulking I'm not too worried about a little extra around the waist. As long as I get my muscle mass and strength up throug the wintr I'll be happy. It wouldn't hurt to throw in cardio 2 per week though.

I've removed th rest of it because your PWO approach probably has more to do with the fat content then any prohormones you were running.

If I were you I would switch some of that food to pre workout as the exessive carbs don't look like they are needed. Some of those calories can be used during workouts. Most young people seem to think thier workouts completely drain their glycogen (LOL @ the inexperience) and hence need to really load up on carbs afterwards

I don't think that at all. I load up on purpose to put on mass. Whether it's all lean or not right now I don't care.

I would say it's you who need to grow up and learn a little about nutrition.

I know enough about nutrition. I've never dieted to stage ready before, but I'm not ready for that(develped enough) Just because I'm on a winter bulk doesn't mean I don't know anything. That's a presumptuos (and erroneous) comment.

^^^