Whole foods PWO?

[cobracock1979]

OK,

This started on another thread, but I fugured rather than hijak the original I woukd start another.

This is eath shattering stuff if its correct (for me anyway)-

It has been put to me that there are definitive studies proving that Insulin spikes DO NOT increase protein synthesis, High GI carbs DO NOT make you fat and Sugars PWO are not needed.

I have had a brief look on the internet and it in fact appears to be some studies showing that insulin spikes PWO do not have any positive effect on glycogen replenishment or protein synthesis.

This means that myself, and anyone elsa using waxy maize/dex/malt PWO could be wasting our time.

It has also been suggested that whole foods (even low GI carbs) PWO are just as effective.

So who uses products to elicit an insulin spike PWO? Who eats whole foods?

Can anyone comment on the fact that high levels of insulin apparently do not have any effect on protein synthesis?

Chime in guys this is important

 

[cobracock1979]

Here's a study posted by EF member gjohnson5 - he claims this to be definative proof that insulin has no effect on protein synthesis. I gotta dissagree.


See post 57 - http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/diet-bodybuilding/mass-please-give-me-your-advice-618806-6.html

Effect of carbohydrate intake on net muscle protein synthesis during recovery from resistance exercise -- Børsheim et al. 96 (2): 674 -- Journal of Applied Physiology


Gjohnson5,

IMO its a a poor study in general. Small group, no mention of the type of carbohydrate used, no quantative figures on the insulin changes. Also, there was NO INGESTION OF PROTEIN with the carbohydrate, so where is the relevance?

Even so, this only goes to show that increases insulin levels DO promote extra protein synthesis via a progressive decrease in protein breakdown (although the effect may be less pronounced than some people say). It also states that the ingestion of amino acids is MORE effective in protein synthesis in a previous study.

This only goes to show that a combination carbohydrate + amino acid shake PWO would be effective in increasing protein synthesis PWO.

I would suggest that if you wish to prove that insulin has no positive effect on protein synthesis PWO, you provide a study on the effect of the addition of carbohydrate + amino's PWO, which gives quantative and qualitive figures on insulin levels, total protein synthesis levels and the types of carbs used.


Net muscle protein balance between synthesis and breakdown did not change in Pla, whereas it improved in the Carb consuming group from -17 ± 3 nmol·ml-1·100 ml leg-1 before drink to an average of -4 ± 4 and 0 ± 3 nmol·ml-1·100 ml leg-1 during the second and third hour after the drink, respectively (P < 0.05 vs. Pla during last hour).The improved net balance in group which ingested carbohydrate was due primarily to a progressive decrease in muscle protein breakdown. We conclude that ingestion of carbohydrates improved net leg protein balance after resistance exercise. However, the effect was minor and delayed compared with the previously reported effect of ingestion of amino acids.

 

[desmond]

Cobra: the prevailing view on bodybuilding.com and propogated by leading nutritionist alan aragon is that the PWO insulin spike is necessary, that high GI carbs are not needed for glycogen synthesis: see extract Fat and Insulin postworkout - UK-Muscle Body Building Community - Bodybuilding Forum (which copies the article)

 

[cobracock1979]

Cobra: the prevailing view on bodybuilding.com and propogated by leading nutritionist alan aragon is that the PWO insulin spike is necessary, that high GI carbs are not needed for glycogen synthesis: see extract Fat and Insulin postworkout - UK-Muscle Body Building Community - Bodybuilding Forum (which copies the article)

Thanks Des,

Interesting stuff.

What it appears from the 2 studies in this thread -

1. Insulin (with or without amino's) slows the progression of muscle breakdown PWO.
2. Only low levels of insulin are required to stop muscle breakdown - an insulin spike is not necessary. This kinda goes in line with GJohnsons theory.
3. Reglycogenation may be independant of insulin
4. Glycogenation efficiency appears to be independant of GI in solid carb sources

OK, does anyone actually have a study showing the effects of inulin and protein synthesis PWO? Even better, the effects of say Whey isolate+sugar/ waxy+amino acids?

 

[gjohnson5]

Cobra: the prevailing view on bodybuilding.com and propogated by leading nutritionist alan aragon is that the PWO insulin spike is necessary, that high GI carbs are not needed for glycogen synthesis: see extract Fat and Insulin postworkout - UK-Muscle Body Building Community - Bodybuilding Forum (which copies the article)

False

Is honey a good source of carbs post-workout? - Page 2 - Bodybuilding.com Forums

Quote straight from Alan Argorn (and I'm not a fan of his either)

If you didn't skip your preworkout carbs, your muscles will be absorbing CHO during (and even after) training. Thus I don't see the urgency. To top things off, the sooner glycogen is refilled, the sooner AMPk is downregulated, and this is not necessarily optimal for those who want to pull out all the stops when it comes to fat oxidation. The point is that it's not universally beneficial to resynthesize glycogen as fast as possible, unless you're talking about endurance performance sports. As for broscientific superstition, it's been so ingrained into the minds of bodybuilders that you must replenish glycogen ASAP that they don't realize that protein synthesis AND the inhibition of protein breakdown can occur maximally via the proper construction & timing of the preworkout meal, which in and of itself nullifies the host of concerns of quick muscle glycogen replenishment postworkout. Bottom line is that you can fulfill your carb requirement with empty calories & succumb to the mythology, or you can beef up the quality of your carbohydrate intake without any of the supposed downsides of slower glycogen replenishment. Unless you train the same set of muscles to glycogen depletion more than once in a day, or are willing to trade nutrient density for convenience, you're better off not compromising the quality of your carb source.

 

[gjohnson5]

So if you see Alan Argorn as the authority on this subject
1. Eat nutrient dense carbohydrates sources for PWO (yes WHOLE Foods)
2. Insulin spike is NOT need PWO

 

[OneBreath]

This might be a bit off topic but i think that WM actually doesn't create an insulin spike like most believe it does. Its benefit is that it replenishes muscle glycogen faster because of its molecular weight and bypassing normal digestion.

I'll try to find the study and post it.

 

[dabuffguy]

Just an FYI, Waxy Maize is NOT a High GI carb.

It's high density makes it pass through the stomach quickly to be absorbed by the small intestines asap.

 

[OneBreath]

Just an FYI, Waxy Maize is NOT a High GI carb.

It's high density makes it pass through the stomach quickly to be absorbed by the small intestines asap.

Yeah, i can't find the study. I even remember a thread on another board where a guy was giving himself a blood glucose test for certain periods after WM ingestion just to test the theory that it didn't cause a spike, and his results proved it.

 

[cobracock1979]

Still good info. I may look at having 50mg WM eevery-other workout when I start cuttin...rather than every day.

Gotta say, I did think it created a slin spike before you told me

 

[gjohnson5]

Just an FYI, Waxy Maize is NOT a High GI carb.

It's high density makes it pass through the stomach quickly to be absorbed by the small intestines asap.

I don't know what you mean "high density". First off WM has low molecular weight.

Secondly you need to learn the difference between glycaemic Index and Glycaemic Load...

 

[jwo02]

All this back and forth back and forth.


Do I still eat my 1/2 cup of oats right after my workout or not? Haha.

 

[OneBreath]

I don't know what you mean "high density". First off WM has low molecular weight.

Secondly you need to learn the difference between glycaemic Index and Glycaemic Load...

Wrong.

Waxy maize starch - Carbohydrates | myprotein.co.uk

Bodybuilding.com - Waxy Maize Information and Product Listing! Waxy Maize FAQ!

KWICK KARB (Waxy Maize Starch) (VALUE SIZE 3.3 lb) By: NutraPlanet

 

[gjohnson5]

My bad

High molecular weight
Low osmality

 

[dabuffguy]

My bad

High molecular weight
Low osmality

blah blah blah...

 

[dabuffguy]

I don't know what you mean "high density".

Haha, apparently. Then why comment without understanding what I'm talking about?


First off WM has low molecular weight.


No, it most certainly does not.

Secondly you need to learn the difference between glycaemic Index and Glycaemic Load...

Why would you assume, out of the silly fabrications of your mind, and pulling everything way out of context, and think I don't know the difference? I mentioned nothing of this, and you somehow quickly respond saying I don't know the difference? 1) Yes, I do know the difference. 2) Nobody here mentioned anything about the difference between the two. You are creating arguments that don't exist. For these reasons, people can't stand to debate and share opinions with you. It all a bunch of fabircated presumptions from your mind, aka "La La Land". And, I'm not trying to be a douche,. Just letting you know that you always stand clear out in left-field while everybody else is in the dugout. Nobody knows where the hell yu come up with this stuff. "You need to learn the difference" Oh, do I? How could you possibly conclude that I don't know the difference seeing as I mentioned nothing of it.

Brutha pleez!

^^^

 

[gjohnson5]

^^^

I could give a damn about your opinions of me. I'm just stating the fact.

1. I don't think you know what you are talking about personally.
2. Just because a carb is LOW GI does not mean it has a low insulin response.

Just pointing that out

 

[dabuffguy]

I could give a damn about your opinions of me. I'm just stating the fact.

You shouldn't care.


1. I don't think you know what you are talking about personally.

I haven't really said much of anything. So, how cuold you possibly come to that conclusion? Again, you are fabricating this assumption based upon no real information.


2. Just because a carb is LOW GI does not mean it has a low insulin response.

I agree.

Just pointing that out

qwerty

 

[dabuffguy]

btw, where this awesome deadlift video we've been waiting for for 8 months?

 

[desmond]

Waxy Maize sends me to sleep - Bodybuilding.com Forums

See this thread. In response to a question of mine ages ago, Alan states that WMS has a very high insulin and glycimic response. He doesn't reference this opinion.

BTW, most foods spike insulin to some degree: An insulin index of foods: the insulin demand generated by 1000-kJ portions of common foods -- Holt et al. 66 (5): 1264 -- American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. Including things like fish. Finding it hard to believe WMS has no insulin effect

The key questions to me are:

(1) how important is rapid glycogen resythensis, particularly for those who consumed carbs pre-workout and will not be overly carb depleted;
(2) had rapid can glycogen resysthensis be - e.g., I have read elsewhere that there is a limit to the amount of glycogen that can be resythesied per hours. Further, if u train low volume, low reps, your degree of glycogen depletition during a workout is going to be low; diddo if u just trained arms.
(3) how important is an insulin spike?
(4) is it beneficial to have insuligneic proteins (e.g., whey) and carbs before workout, and does this lessen the need for an extremely insulingenic PWO shake.

I would also submit that we don't really understand the role as insulin as well as we think: (1) - studies on separting fats and carbs do not compare favourable to grouping them, despite the theory that insulin + fat = bad
(2) supporting this, for isocaloric quantities of whole and skim milk as PWO aid, whole milk actually won despite having less protein. The fat + insulin combo of whole milk actually won
(3) the link I've got suggests that protein and fat, rather from blunting insulin responses of carbs, increase it (e.g., bakery goods and baked beans)

 

[jwo02]

I could give a damn about your opinions of me. I'm just stating the fact.

1. I don't think you know what you are talking about personally.

Glad someone else has figured this out.


By the way, quit talking about someone bringing up something irrelevant and then you bring up a video about a deadlift. I mean, we all know you're just tyring to change the subject because you're way out of your league with Johnson but damn. Pathetic.

 

[dabuffguy]

Glad someone else has figured this out.


By the way, quit talking about someone bringing up something irrelevant and then you bring up a video about a deadlift. I mean, we all know you're just tyring to change the subject because you're way out of your league with Johnson but damn. Pathetic.

Lol @ u bro.

For real, you are the most clueless person on this site. And you have the audacity to insult my intelligence? Bwahahahahaha!!!!!!!!

 

[jwo02]

Clueless...dude look at your avatar and YOU'RE trying to give ME diet advice. HAHAHAHA.

 

[dabuffguy]

Clueless...dude look at your avatar and YOU'RE trying to give ME diet advice. HAHAHAHA.

I am bulking and holding water, and my BF is only 12%. Plus, my pathetically pale skin reflected off the bathroom lights doesn't help the cause. Just because I am not ripped to shreds at the moment doesn't mean I don't know how to diet. Please. Just another sign of your ignorance.


BTW, I weigh 225lbs with 18" arms. How much do you weigh? 175 with a 14.5" arm?

Yep, you are stacked bro. Go eat something, because you might blow away in the wind if you walk outside.

 

[desmond]

Ok: this thread had the potential to be interesting and informative. It briefly degenerated into a mudslinging match - unfortunate, but I guess this is partly because of the keen interest in the subject matter.

Let's bring the subject matter back to the threadstarter's intention.

 

[dabuffguy]

When bulking I use a very high carb approach for PWO.

OneBreath thinks it's funny i do this like a ritual, lol.


Immediately PWO, I take 30 grams WM, followed 10-15 minutes later by 50grams whey protein isolate mixed with another 30 gram of WM.

30 minutes after that, I down 1 cup of oats. 30-45 minutes following that, I eat a full meal. 12 oz of meat, 3 cups of green veggies, 1/2 cup of brown rice or other low GI carb(may be whole wheat bread. 32 oz of 1% milk. Plus multi-vitamns and such.


Plenty of protein and carbs PWO to ensure nutrition, and plenty of fuel to repair and build.


If I we're cutting, I would only do 30gm WM, 50 gm whey, and 1/2 cup of oats. Followed by a full meal with water instead of milk, and a littl more meat.

 

[gjohnson5]

I am bulking and holding water, and my BF is only 12%. Plus, my pathetically pale skin reflected off the bathroom lights doesn't help the cause. Just because I am not ripped to shreds at the moment doesn't mean I don't know how to diet. Please. Just another sign of your ignorance.


BTW, I weigh 225lbs with 18" arms. How much do you weigh? 175 with a 14.5" arm?

Yep, you are stacked bro. Go eat something, because you might blow away in the wind if you walk outside.

LOL @ taking his side and getting ripped as well, Casper

 

[dabuffguy]

LOL @ taking his side and getting ripped as well, Casper

and if you think the dude in that avatar is 10% bodyfat , you need to get a clue

I said 12%, not 10%(nice post edit, lol). Plus, that pic was taken 4 weeks ago at the end of my kicker with a-bombs, where I was holding quite a bit of water at almost 230 lbs. Which effectively gave me the appearance of having 14-15% BF, when in fact it is only 12%. I dropped to 223 in like a week, and have since then added 2 pounds, to come to my stated 225.




Quit the bickering bro. Get back to the thread like desmond said. I attempted to move forward, but you keep going with this kid shit. For the third time, and along with cobra's addition, GROW UP!

 

[gjohnson5]

When bulking I use a very high carb approach for PWO.

Personally it looks to be all fat based on that approach as well.

OneBreath thinks it's funny i do this like a ritual, lol.

Well it looks to be overkill.
I've removed th rest of it because your PWO approach probably has more to do with the fat content then any prohormones you were running.

If I were you I would switch some of that food to pre workout as the exessive carbs don't look like they are needed. Some of those calories can be used during workouts. Most young people seem to think thier workouts completely drain their glycogen (LOL @ the inexperience) and hence need to really load up on carbs afterwards


I would say it's you who need to grow up and learn a little about nutrition

 

[desmond]

I said 12%, not 10%(nice post edit, lol). Plus, that pic was taken 4 weeks ago at the end of my kicker with a-bombs, where I was holding quite a bit of water at almost 230 lbs. Which effectively gave me the appearance of having 14-15% BF, when in fact it is only 12%. I dropped to 223 in like a week, and have since then added 2 pounds, to come to my stated 225.

I respectfully do think your PWO regimen is extreme overkill.

How long do you work out for? What are your rest breaks, rep ranges, exercise type (compound v isolation).

To put it this way, it is unlikely one hour of weights burns more than 100 carbs. Typical estimates of weights is taht it burns less than < 500 cals (except perhap for a leg only routine), and even assuming 80% of what is burned is carbs (whilst weights are anerobic, u'd burn some fat during rest breaks etc), that still leaves you with 100 carbs.

Inflate all these figures significantly (which are already generous), and we could generously say you may have burned 150 carbs (which I doubt).

YOu have:
- 60g WMS carbs;
- 60g Oat carbs
- say 10 green veggies carbs
- unsure ur brown rice carbs, but I'm guessing quite possibly another 60.
- another 40 milk carbs
- likely carbs from some glucogenisis of whey

So your getting 200+ carbs PWO. Seems a tad too much IMO - but if its working for you fine.

Some of those carbs coudl be useful pre-workout, unless your goal is to increase natural GH release during exericse (although apparnetly effect of this is minor).

I don't have exact figures, but there is as far as I'm aware of a maximum rate of glycogen resynthesis (indeed, tour de france and marathon runners burn more cals in comp that this rate).

 

[joe d]

for me. spiking my insulin with sugar as soon as i stop lifting instantly puts me back into an anabolic state. i can feel the difference and i know it is the best thing i can do before i even leave the gym. i chug down a bottle of juice and i can feal my muscles filling back up before i even get to my truck. whole foods will not do that for me. they will take longer to become effective and keep me to full for my next meal 30 minutes later. where i drink a 80g protein 100g carb shake. its all in the person and their size. as i get bigger i notice my muscles acting more sensitively to what i feed them. early am and post w/o thet are like a gauge i can tell when i have eaten enough because they feal full.

 

[desmond]

HONEY v MALTODEXTRIN

Effects of ingesting protein with various forms of carbohydrate following resistance-exercise on substrate availability and markers of anabolism, catabolism, and immunity.

Kreider RB, Earnest CP, Lundberg J, Rasmussen C, Greenwood M, Cowan P, Almada AL.
Exercise & Sport Nutrition Lab, Center for Exercise, Nutrition and Preventive Health, Baylor University, Waco, TX, USA. [email protected].

ABSTRACT: BACKGROUND: Ingestion of carbohydrate (CHO) and protein (PRO) following intense exercise has been reported to increase insulin levels, optimize glycogen resynthesis, enhance PRO synthesis, and lessen the immuno-suppressive effects of intense exercise. Since different forms of CHO have varying glycemic effects, the purpose of this study was to determine whether the type of CHO ingested with PRO following resistance-exercise affects blood glucose availability and insulin levels, markers of anabolism and catabolism, and/or general immune markers. METHODS: 40 resistance-trained subjects performed a standardized resistance training workout and then ingested in a double blind and randomized manner 40 g of whey PRO with 120 g of sucrose (S), honey powder (H), or maltodextrin (M). A non-supplemented control group (C) was also evaluated. Blood samples were collected prior to and following exercise as well as 30, 60, 90, and 120 min after ingestion of the supplements. Data were analyzed by repeated measures ANOVA or ANCOVA using baseline values as a covariate if necessary. RESULTS: Glucose concentration 30 min following ingestion showed the H group (7.12 +/- 0.2 mmol/L) to be greater than S (5.53 +/- 0.6 mmol/L; p < 0.03); M (6.02 +/- 0.8 mmol/L; p < 0.05), and C (5.44 +/- 0.18 mmol/L; p < 0.0002) groups. No significant differences were observed among groups in glucose area under the curve (AUC) values, although the H group showed a trend versus control (p = 0.06). Insulin response for each treatment was significant by time (p < 0.0001), treatment (p < 0.0001) and AUC (p < 0.0001). 30-min peak post-feeding insulin for S (136.2 +/- 15.6 uIU/mL), H (150.1 +/- 25.39 uIU/mL), and M (154.8 +/- 18.9 uIU/mL) were greater than C (8.7 +/- 2.9 uIU/mL) as was AUC with no significant differences observed among types of CHO. No significant group x time effects were observed among groups in testosterone, cortisol, the ratio of testosterone to cortisol, muscle and liver enzymes, or general markers of immunity. CONCLUSION: CHO and PRO ingestion following exercise significantly influences glucose and insulin concentrations. Although some trends were observed suggesting that H maintained blood glucose levels to a better degree, no significant differences were observed among types of CHO ingested on insulin levels. These findings suggest that each of these forms of CHO can serve as effective sources of CHO to ingest with PRO in and attempt to promote post-exercise anabolic responses.
__________________
January Research Review (learn at your own risk):
http://user210805.websitewizard.com/files/unprotected/AARR-Jan-2008.pdf

 

[gjohnson5]

I posted that study today in the other thread
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/d...give-me-your-advice-618806-7.html#post8557033

It clearly states that the bottom that cortisol and testosterone were unaffected by excess carbs ingested for anabolism
It also states that no significant differences were observed in the types of CHO absorbed

The the above is true then what is the point of spiking insulin PWO. Why not absorb those carbs pre workout to help fuel and reduce muscle microtrama during the workout? This way you could eat more nutrient dense foods instead of eating empty calories such as sugars

 

[desmond]

it does intuitively make more sense to consume carbs pre/post and than just post - more energy, less cortisol intra-workout, and more nutrients simply because WMS has none.

I'm sure many will disagree, but I'd personally think milk is perfect pre-workout - low GI, bit high II

I posted that study today in the other thread
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/d...give-me-your-advice-618806-7.html#post8557033

It clearly states that the bottom that cortisol and testosterone were unaffected by excess carbs ingested for anabolism
It also states that no significant differences were observed in the types of CHO absorbed

The the above is true then what is the point of spiking insulin PWO. Why not absorb those carbs pre workout to help fuel and reduce muscle microtrama during the workout? This way you could eat more nutrient dense foods instead of eating empty calories such as sugars

 

[gjohnson5]

it does intuitively make more sense to consume carbs pre/post and than just post - more energy, less cortisol intra-workout, and more nutrients simply because WMS has none.

I'm sure many will disagree, but I'd personally think milk is perfect pre-workout - low GI, bit high II

Milk has a high insulin response. I think milk being listed as Low GI gives people a false sense of security. Milk sugar = lactose. It's 2 simple sugars glucose and galactose bound together by an OH bond. Once the bond is broken, the 2 sugars are monosaccharides and will immediately raise blood sugar. I'm not sure where galactose is on the GI scale because it's generally not listed .. (which is another reason why I generally take issue with milk being listed as low GI)

 

[desmond]

Milk has a high insulin response. I think milk being listed as Low GI gives people a false sense of security. Milk sugar = lactose. It's 2 simple sugars glucose and galactose bound together by an OH bond. Once the bond is broken, the 2 sugars are monosaccharides and will immediately raise blood sugar. I'm not sure where galactose is on the GI scale because it's generally not listed .. (which is another reason why I generally take issue with milk being listed as low GI)

Yeah, I said milk had high II ("insulin index") in my post.

ONe of the reasons for its high II is whey protein, and synergestic insulin responses of protein and carbs (see II of baked beans).

I don't really have a problem with consuming something with high II pre-workout - would seem to be a positive if anything. I mean its all dose dependent too.

 

[gjohnson5]

Yeah, I said milk had high II ("insulin index") in my post.

ONe of the reasons for its high II is whey protein, and synergestic insulin responses of protein and carbs (see II of baked beans).

I don't really have a problem with consuming something with high II pre-workout - would seem to be a positive if anything. I mean its all dose dependent too.

Gotcha
Yeah I ususally use the term glycaemic load

 

[jwo02]

I am bulking and holding water, and my BF is only 12%. Plus, my pathetically pale skin reflected off the bathroom lights doesn't help the cause. Just because I am not ripped to shreds at the moment doesn't mean I don't know how to diet. Please. Just another sign of your ignorance.


BTW, I weigh 225lbs with 18" arms. How much do you weigh? 175 with a 14.5" arm?

Yep, you are stacked bro. Go eat something, because you might blow away in the wind if you walk outside.

16 1/4'' arms.


Yeah, I weigh 51 pounds less then you, probably less body fat(when I say probably I mean definitely), and my arms aren't much smaller then yours.


Not to mention I could almost definitely hang with you on core lifts.


EDIT:

Oh, and if you really wanna get down to how else I'm better then you, I run a 4.59 40 yard. By the looks of your avatar we'd need a calendar to time yours.

 

[dabuffguy]

I said 12%, not 10%(nice post edit, lol). Plus, that pic was taken 4 weeks ago at the end of my kicker with a-bombs, where I was holding quite a bit of water at almost 230 lbs. Which effectively gave me the appearance of having 14-15% BF, when in fact it is only 12%. I dropped to 223 in like a week, and have since then added 2 pounds, to come to my stated 225.

I respectfully do think your PWO regimen is extreme overkill.

How long do you work out for? What are your rest breaks, rep ranges, exercise type (compound v isolation).

To put it this way, it is unlikely one hour of weights burns more than 100 carbs. Typical estimates of weights is taht it burns less than < 500 cals (except perhap for a leg only routine), and even assuming 80% of what is burned is carbs (whilst weights are anerobic, u'd burn some fat during rest breaks etc), that still leaves you with 100 carbs.

Inflate all these figures significantly (which are already generous), and we could generously say you may have burned 150 carbs (which I doubt).

YOu have:
- 60g WMS carbs;
- 60g Oat carbs
- say 10 green veggies carbs
- unsure ur brown rice carbs, but I'm guessing quite possibly another 60.
- another 40 milk carbs
- likely carbs from some glucogenisis of whey

So your getting 200+ carbs PWO. Seems a tad too much IMO - but if its working for you fine.

Some of those carbs coudl be useful pre-workout, unless your goal is to increase natural GH release during exericse (although apparnetly effect of this is minor).

I don't have exact figures, but there is as far as I'm aware of a maximum rate of glycogen resynthesis (indeed, tour de france and marathon runners burn more cals in comp that this rate).

Oh, I know it's a little over the top. I do it on purpose. Someone asked me what I am currently doing, so I posted it up.

I'm ectomorphic, and have a fast metabolism. Extra carbs don't really hurt me too bad. When I'm bulking I could care less how fat I get, because I'll never get way tubby. I'm just not built that way. I could eat 7000 calories a day an I wouldn't reach 20% BF.

Since I leave work to the gym, I just down a RTD shake. has 230 cals. 15 g protein, like 35grams of sugar. Yeah yeah, it's sugar I know. I'm bulking, so who cares? Just to get someting in the body.


And to anyone who is saying I look fat in my avi is retarded. Go take some anadrol and test and see what happens. As of right now, my lower abs show through, so i'm not even close to fat or even slightly tubby. I have maybe 5 lbs of extra fat on me that I could do away with and I'd look lean, but what 5 pounds when you're bulking? Pffft.

 

[dabuffguy]

Personally it looks to be all fat based on that approach as well.


"All fat" as in 7 lbs of water from the a-bombs? Nah. Lower abs show through. Barely, but they're there. I couldn't possibly be higher than 13%. Still stand by 12% though. I have a 32. The angle, my white ghostly skin, and the bathroom lights in the pic wash it out too.


Well it looks to be overkill.

I agree. But, since I'm bulking I'm not too worried about a little extra around the waist. As long as I get my muscle mass and strength up throug the wintr I'll be happy. It wouldn't hurt to throw in cardio 2 per week though.

I've removed th rest of it because your PWO approach probably has more to do with the fat content then any prohormones you were running.

If I were you I would switch some of that food to pre workout as the exessive carbs don't look like they are needed. Some of those calories can be used during workouts. Most young people seem to think thier workouts completely drain their glycogen (LOL @ the inexperience) and hence need to really load up on carbs afterwards

I don't think that at all. I load up on purpose to put on mass. Whether it's all lean or not right now I don't care.

I would say it's you who need to grow up and learn a little about nutrition.

I know enough about nutrition. I've never dieted to stage ready before, but I'm not ready for that(develped enough) Just because I'm on a winter bulk doesn't mean I don't know anything. That's a presumptuos (and erroneous) comment.

^^^

 

[dabuffguy]

16 1/4'' arms.


Yeah, I weigh 51 pounds less then you, probably less body fat(when I say probably I mean definitely), and my arms aren't much smaller then yours.

Congratulations. You have less BF because you eat 1500 calories a day. Oh, and almost 2" smaller arms is MUCH smaller bro.

Not to mention I could almost definitely hang with you on core lifts.

Can you pull 545 from the floor? Can you bench 335? Can you squat 405? Not quite, eh? mmmkay.

EDIT:

Oh, and if you really wanna get down to how else I'm better then you, I run a 4.59 40 yard.

Oh, shit! Someone's got an ace up their sleeve. Look the hell out for this son of a bitch. He really means business!

^^^^

 

[dabuffguy]

Milk has a high insulin response. I think milk being listed as Low GI gives people a false sense of security. Milk sugar = lactose. It's 2 simple sugars glucose and galactose bound together by an OH bond. Once the bond is broken, the 2 sugars are monosaccharides and will immediately raise blood sugar. I'm not sure where galactose is on the GI scale because it's generally not listed .. (which is another reason why I generally take issue with milk being listed as low GI)

Good post. People do misunderstand milk.

 

[cobracock1979]

I posted that study today in the other thread
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/d...give-me-your-advice-618806-7.html#post8557033

It clearly states that the bottom that cortisol and testosterone were unaffected by excess carbs ingested for anabolism
It also states that no significant differences were observed in the types of CHO absorbed

The the above is true then what is the point of spiking insulin PWO. Why not absorb those carbs pre workout to help fuel and reduce muscle microtrama during the workout? This way you could eat more nutrient dense foods instead of eating empty calories such as sugars

Ive already explainend that this is in no way conclusive and that these markers are only an indicator - you would need to physically measure protein absorption to conclude that no protein synthesis took place.

An I already stated Im gonna try ingesting carbs pre workout.

Still waiting for you to prove yopur point here

 

[cobracock1979]

http://62.189.20.9/bst/034/0213/0340213.pdf

Interestind read - mechanisms of protein synthesis and the role of insulin in this

 

[gjohnson5]

Ive already explainend that this is in no way conclusive and that these markers are only an indicator - you would need to physically measure protein absorption to conclude that no protein synthesis took place.

An I already stated Im gonna try ingesting carbs pre workout.

Still waiting for you to prove yopur point here

If you feel you have proof that insulin spike PWO des anything for anabolism, then post it.
There is no proof of that being true...

Hell here's another study which states that glutamine supplementation works just as well as carbohydrates pWO to restore glycogen.

To reiterate the point. carbohydrates are not needed PWO if adequate proteins are present...

Effect of oral glutamine on whole body carbohydrate storage during recovery from exhaustive exercise -- Bowtell et al. 86 (6): 1770 -- Journal of Applied Physiology

However, when the results from the present study are directly compared with those obtained by Varnier and colleagues (36), in a study carried out in our laboratory and using an identical experimental protocol in similar subjects, oral glutamine does appear to promote net resynthesis of muscle glycogen stores relative to control subjects in whom saline or alanine+glycine were infused. We found that after the subjects' consumption of the glutamine-only drink, the rate of muscle glycogen storage was 4.1 ± 1.1 mmol · kg wet wt-1 · h-1, whereas Varnier and colleagues found that the rate of net muscle glycogen storage after infusion of either saline or alanine+glycine fell within the range 0.5-1.0 mmol · kg wet wt-1 · h-1, which is consistent with previously reported results. The effect of glutamine may be due to one or both of two possibilities: first, glutamine has been shown to be an effective substrate for hepatic glycogen synthesis in 72-h fasted rats, i.e., when glycogen is severely depleted (27); such a scenario could also occur in postexercise muscle in which glycogen is low and in which all of the required transporters and enzymes exist. In skeletal muscle, the exogenous glutamine will be rapidly taken up through system Nm (1), where it can be deaminated to form glutamate and then 2-oxoglutarate through the action of either glutaminase and glutamate dehydrogenase or glutamine transaminase and omega -amidase. It is possible, then, for the 2-oxoglutarate to enter the TCA cycle and be removed at the level of malate (by the action either of malate dehydrogenase or of the malic enzyme plus phosphoenolpyruvate carboxykinase and pyruvate kinase); the malate can be converted to oxaloacetate, phosphoenolpyruvate, and finally pyruvate, which may then be used in the glycogenic pathway by reversal of glycolysis to fructose 1,6-bisphosphate. This pathway may be particularly active at the end of exercise, when both the availability of glycogenic metabolites and muscle glycogen concentration are low; comparisons may be drawn to the physiological state in the starved condition, when glutamine has proved to be an effective glycogenic substrate in rat muscle (27). However, only 55 mmol of glutamine were ingested, of which, at most, probably only 47% reached the systemic circulation (15); thus the resultant glycogenic precursor would be of minor importance relative to the 119 mmol of muscle glycogen storage that occurred during the 2-h recovery period.

.
.
.
.
In conclusion, ingestion of glutamine alone appeared to promote muscle glycogen resynthesis during recovery from exhaustive exercise, relative to that expected from studies in which no substrate was provided. The promotion of muscle glycogen synthesis by consumption of glucose polymer and of glutamine was not additive. However, the addition of glutamine to the glucose polymer drink resulted in a greater storage of carbohydrate in sites other than skeletal muscle, the most likely candidate being the liver.

 

[cobracock1979]

If you feel you have proof that insulin spike PWO des anything for anabolism, then post it.
There is no proof of that being true...

Hell here's another study which states that glutamine supplementation works just as well as carbohydrates pWO to restore glycogen.

To reiterate the point. carbohydrates are not needed PWO if adequate proteins are present...

Effect of oral glutamine on whole body carbohydrate storage during recovery from exhaustive exercise -- Bowtell et al. 86 (6): 1770 -- Journal of Applied Physiology

However, when the results from the present study are directly compared with those obtained by Varnier and colleagues (36), in a study carried out in our laboratory and using an identical experimental protocol in similar subjects, oral glutamine does appear to promote net resynthesis of muscle glycogen stores relative to control subjects in whom saline or alanine+glycine were infused. We found that after the subjects' consumption of the glutamine-only drink, the rate of muscle glycogen storage was 4.1 ± 1.1 mmol · kg wet wt-1 · h-1, whereas Varnier and colleagues found that the rate of net muscle glycogen storage after infusion of either saline or alanine+glycine fell within the range 0.5-1.0 mmol · kg wet wt-1 · h-1, which is consistent with previously reported results. The effect of glutamine may be due to one or both of two possibilities: first, glutamine has been shown to be an effective substrate for hepatic glycogen synthesis in 72-h fasted rats, i.e., when glycogen is severely depleted (27); such a scenario could also occur in postexercise muscle in which glycogen is low and in which all of the required transporters and enzymes exist. In skeletal muscle, the exogenous glutamine will be rapidly taken up through system Nm (1), where it can be deaminated to form glutamate and then 2-oxoglutarate through the action of either glutaminase and glutamate dehydrogenase or glutamine transaminase and omega -amidase. It is possible, then, for the 2-oxoglutarate to enter the TCA cycle and be removed at the level of malate (by the action either of malate dehydrogenase or of the malic enzyme plus phosphoenolpyruvate carboxykinase and pyruvate kinase); the malate can be converted to oxaloacetate, phosphoenolpyruvate, and finally pyruvate, which may then be used in the glycogenic pathway by reversal of glycolysis to fructose 1,6-bisphosphate. This pathway may be particularly active at the end of exercise, when both the availability of glycogenic metabolites and muscle glycogen concentration are low; comparisons may be drawn to the physiological state in the starved condition, when glutamine has proved to be an effective glycogenic substrate in rat muscle (27). However, only 55 mmol of glutamine were ingested, of which, at most, probably only 47% reached the systemic circulation (15); thus the resultant glycogenic precursor would be of minor importance relative to the 119 mmol of muscle glycogen storage that occurred during the 2-h recovery period.

.
.
.
.
In conclusion, ingestion of glutamine alone appeared to promote muscle glycogen resynthesis during recovery from exhaustive exercise, relative to that expected from studies in which no substrate was provided. The promotion of muscle glycogen synthesis by consumption of glucose polymer and of glutamine was not additive. However, the addition of glutamine to the glucose polymer drink resulted in a greater storage of carbohydrate in sites other than skeletal muscle, the most likely candidate being the liver.

Where have I been unclear on this? I have never said I have proof that insulin spikes increase anobolism PWO, quite the opposite.

It is you that have said, in black and white "I can definatively prove that insulin spikes PWO have no positive effect on protein synthesis PWO" - see the link below.

The impetus is on you to prove this definatively. Let me repeat the important word here again - definatively. If you can't then fine - dont make such comments in future.

Dont get me wrong, you have raised some interesting fundamental points and have provided some studies which indicate thay MAY have some validity, so thats something. I have stated in my latest thread that I will be potentially trying some new whole food workout regimes. But I guess you will continue stating that I am not open to other peoples viewpoints...cos you just dont listen.


See post 57 http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/diet-bodybuilding/mass-please-give-me-your-advice-618806-6.html

 

[cobracock1979]

If you feel you have proof that insulin spike PWO des anything for anabolism, then post it.
There is no proof of that being true...

Hell here's another study which states that glutamine supplementation works just as well as carbohydrates pWO to restore glycogen.

To reiterate the point. carbohydrates are not needed PWO if adequate proteins are present...

Effect of oral glutamine on whole body carbohydrate storage during recovery from exhaustive exercise -- Bowtell et al. 86 (6): 1770 -- Journal of Applied Physiology

However, when the results from the present study are directly compared with those obtained by Varnier and colleagues (36), in a study carried out in our laboratory and using an identical experimental protocol in similar subjects, oral glutamine does appear to promote net resynthesis of muscle glycogen stores relative to control subjects in whom saline or alanine+glycine were infused. We found that after the subjects' consumption of the glutamine-only drink, the rate of muscle glycogen storage was 4.1 ± 1.1 mmol · kg wet wt-1 · h-1, whereas Varnier and colleagues found that the rate of net muscle glycogen storage after infusion of either saline or alanine+glycine fell within the range 0.5-1.0 mmol · kg wet wt-1 · h-1, which is consistent with previously reported results. The effect of glutamine may be due to one or both of two possibilities: first, glutamine has been shown to be an effective substrate for hepatic glycogen synthesis in 72-h fasted rats, i.e., when glycogen is severely depleted (27); such a scenario could also occur in postexercise muscle in which glycogen is low and in which all of the required transporters and enzymes exist. In skeletal muscle, the exogenous glutamine will be rapidly taken up through system Nm (1), where it can be deaminated to form glutamate and then 2-oxoglutarate through the action of either glutaminase and glutamate dehydrogenase or glutamine transaminase and omega -amidase. It is possible, then, for the 2-oxoglutarate to enter the TCA cycle and be removed at the level of malate (by the action either of malate dehydrogenase or of the malic enzyme plus phosphoenolpyruvate carboxykinase and pyruvate kinase); the malate can be converted to oxaloacetate, phosphoenolpyruvate, and finally pyruvate, which may then be used in the glycogenic pathway by reversal of glycolysis to fructose 1,6-bisphosphate. This pathway may be particularly active at the end of exercise, when both the availability of glycogenic metabolites and muscle glycogen concentration are low; comparisons may be drawn to the physiological state in the starved condition, when glutamine has proved to be an effective glycogenic substrate in rat muscle (27). However, only 55 mmol of glutamine were ingested, of which, at most, probably only 47% reached the systemic circulation (15); thus the resultant glycogenic precursor would be of minor importance relative to the 119 mmol of muscle glycogen storage that occurred during the 2-h recovery period.

.
.
.
.
In conclusion, ingestion of glutamine alone appeared to promote muscle glycogen resynthesis during recovery from exhaustive exercise, relative to that expected from studies in which no substrate was provided. The promotion of muscle glycogen synthesis by consumption of glucose polymer and of glutamine was not additive. However, the addition of glutamine to the glucose polymer drink resulted in a greater storage of carbohydrate in sites other than skeletal muscle, the most likely candidate being the liver.

I know this - I have already stated glutamine and BCAA's are effective for this.

But we are taking about skeletal protein synthesis, and how it is effected by insulin spikes and protein ingestion. We are not discussing the most effective method of reglycogenation.

 

[cobracock1979]

Please also see the newest thready I started - it is on this subject and this subject alone.

What do you think on the stuff about insulin spikes curbing cortisol production and increasing IGF-1 production significantly at high levels of insulin PWO?

 

[jwo02]

^^^^

Dude I weigh 51 fucking pounds less then you WITH A LOWER BODY FAT. I didn't say I could lift with you pound for pound, I said I can hang with, which I can.


Bench: 285
Squat: 355
Power: 240
Hang: 235


Not to mention I'm not even training for strength like you are, nor have I ever taken anything even remotely close to abombs.


Just admitt you've been out done.


This will be my last post in this thread because I know how you're going to answer back, the same way you answer EVERYTHING...you're going to say "see bro I'm stronger then you bro I eat a shit ton bro you need to eat more bro bro bro I know everything about diet bro that's why I look like shit on a white rag bro I have 18'' biceps bro and only 1 3/4'' of those inches is my layer of rhino fat bro."


Admitt your diet blows. You don't need all those fucking carbs. You're just eating them cause you want to eat and don't have the self discipline not to.


</tellingbroherewhateveryonewantstosaycausehesanarrogantlittleprick>

 

[OneBreath]

this thread is cursed. Everyone gets in a fight that posts.

 

[gjohnson5]

That's becuase people with old school mentality beliefs can't stand the fact that thier thoeries appear to have been "broscience" mainly from supplement companies with no factual or scientific data behind them.

Noone want to believe they've been "had" But unfortunately on this subject I would say many many people bought into supplemnt company promotions on face value instead of cold hard facts.
So everyone believes
1. more is better
2. 2g or protein for every lb of bodyweight
3. overtraining is a huge problem
4. you MUST spike your insulin with sugar to grow

And other nonsense that has come about over the years
I'm just stating the cold hard truth as the information on this subject comes to light.

 

[dabuffguy]

http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo280/jwo/IMAGE_013.jpg

Here's JWO guys.

Yeah, he's fuckig huge!

Please bro, you are a tiny little twerp.

Not to mention he looks like a drunk, stoned, pothead. Queer ass smirk on your face too. Get a fucking hair cut hippie, and shave off that blotchy pathetic excuse for facial hair too.

And I am not even close to "fat". Not even close. you're retarded.

 

[dabuffguy]

Dude I weigh 51 fucking pounds less then you WITH A LOWER BODY FAT.

I weighed as much as you last only a year ago. I put on 50 lbs in 12 months, 40 of which have been solid. How much weight have you put on in the last year? I recall you telling everyone you lost all your gains after a run. Probably because you eat 1500 calories. Just guessing. Talk about dieting issues.


I didn't say I could lift with you pound for pound, I said I can hang with, which I can.


Bench: 285 vs 335? That's a huge jump. Besides, my long arms could barely bench 145 pounds a year ago.

Squat: 355 Decent number
Power: 240
Hang: 235


Not to mention I'm not even training for strength like you are, nor have I ever taken anything even remotely close to abombs.


Just admitt you've been out done.

By your own standard to make yourself feel better? I could lie to myself too, but that's counterproductive to progression.


This will be my last post in this thread because I know how you're going to answer back, the same way you answer EVERYTHING...you're going to say "see bro I'm stronger then you bro I eat a shit ton bro you need to eat more bro bro bro I know everything about diet bro that's why I look like shit on a white rag bro I have 18'' biceps bro and only 1 3/4'' of those inches is my layer of rhino fat bro."


Now you have nothing intelligent to say, so you ramble.

Admitt your diet blows.

I'm bulking, my diet is just fine for bulking.


You don't need all those fucking carbs. You're just eating them cause you want to eat and don't have the self discipline not to.


</tellingbroherewhateveryonewantstosaycausehesanarrogantlittleprick>

Since you are so confident of yourself, why dont you post up a picture of yourself from today and show everyone how ripped you are now. I'd love to see this.

Go on, where's a pic bro?


I posted a pic even though I don't look stage-ready. Who cares? I'm working on getting bigger. Something you have falied to achieve. Once I hit 240, I'll cut and look like a beast, meanwhile you will continue to look small and weak.

BTW, I have had many people say I don't look fat at all. It's just you saying that to try to boost your weak self up, and you are failing. It's obvious.

 

[cobracock1979]

Iv not got into any fights OB! Dudes, stop fighting on my thread!

LOL, I actually like GJohnson in a wierd way. No 'sugar' coating with that dude (pardon the pun)

 

[desmond]

Since you are so confident of yourself, why dont you post up a picture of yourself from today and show everyone how ripped you are now. I'd love to see this.

Go on, where's a pic bro?


I posted a pic even though I don't look stage-ready. Who cares? I'm working on getting bigger. Something you have falied to achieve. Once I hit 240, I'll cut and look like a beast, meanwhile you will continue to look small and weak.

BTW, I have had many people say I don't look fat at all. It's just you saying that to try to boost your weak self up, and you are failing. It's obvious.

Come on, using his photo on your avatar is taking this fight a bit too far

 

[dabuffguy]

Come on, using his photo on your avatar is taking this fight a bit too far

banned

lol