when is it ok to eat carbs again??

[Burning_Inside]

I'm not trying to "one-up" you. If someone posts something that is flawed, it's likely someone else will point it out.

Dieting is basically all about calories in vs. calories out. There are other factors to consider, but nothing matters nearly as much as the almighty calorie.

If someone's maintenance calorie level is 3000 calories, and this person consumes 2500 calories each day, he/she is going to lose weight, period. And given an adequate protein intake, a large portion of that weight loss will come from fat. Whether this person ingested 0g carbs, 100g carbs, or 200g carbs is irrelevant as long as total calories are the same. And whether these carbs come in the morning or at night is equally as irrelevant. (Granted, you may have slightly better insulin sensitivity at certain points in the day, but the differences will not be overly drastic. Partitioning effects will be greatest after training so centering carb intake around workouts is a good approach...however, again this is not nearly as important as total calories consumed.)

I think your biggest problem is that you seem to be under the impression that your metabolism slows down greatly at night. It slows for sure, but by a negligible amount.

I think something you cant seem to overlook is the all around calorie per day thing. A calorie is not a calorie and as you say yourself timing of nutrients is important to goals one way or another. Going by what you say, you're saying I could eat 2500 cals a day in nothing but table sugar but I will lose weight, simply because I'm eating under my BMR in cals? Am I putting words in your mouth?

Hypothetical situation, let's say for one full day, you ate nothing but just one scoop of whey and did cardio for 45 mins. You only took in say 80 calories. That night, I'm sure if you went to bed, and at carbs beforehand, it wouldn't matter.

Let's say the next say you had 2000 calories up into bedtime, but did less work than yesterday. Do you think you could get away with eating carbs before bed this night and having them burned up while you sleep?

You mention a lot about cals in vs cals out but you have to realize there's also the othe rfactor of how much work you're doing in a day also and how much energy your body needs on a daily basis.

if I sat around all day in bed and did nothing, there's no way my body would need the same amount of cals to function that day as it did the day before, your "maintenance" level changes on a daily basis, so in this case taking carbs pre bedtime would be a short term mistake.

i just don't understand why you'd ever risk it anyway, it's not hard to instead take a scoop of casein in water and maybe a bit of flax.

my opinion.

 

[Joe Stenson]

Going by what you say, you're saying I could eat 2500 cals a day in nothing but table sugar but I will lose weight, simply because I'm eating under my BMR in cals?

That is correct. However, because you don't have an adequate protein intake most (if not all) of that weight loss will be muscle.

The funny thing is people like to complicate things, but really a calorie IS a calorie...especially when you take adequate protein and EFAs as a given.

Hypothetical situation, let's say for one full day, you ate nothing but just one scoop of whey and did cardio for 45 mins. You only took in say 80 calories. That night, I'm sure if you went to bed, and at carbs beforehand, it wouldn't matter.

Let's say the next say you had 2000 calories up into bedtime, but did less work than yesterday. Do you think you could get away with eating carbs before bed this night and having them burned up while you sleep?

Depends. Are those calories going to put you at or over your limit? If not, then sure you can get away with it.

You mention a lot about cals in vs cals out but you have to realize there's also the othe rfactor of how much work you're doing in a day also and how much energy your body needs on a daily basis.

LOL. What do you think the cals OUT part of the equation is referring to???

if I sat around all day in bed and did nothing, there's no way my body would need the same amount of cals to function that day as it did the day before, your "maintenance" level changes on a daily basis, so in this case taking carbs pre bedtime would be a short term mistake.

If you were completely sedentary the cals out side of the equation decreases. To compensate for this you have to consume less calories that day, ie. your "maintenance" level does indeed change. Taking in carbs before bed might put you over the limit...or it might not.

 

[Yarg!]

so joe, what youre saying is carb timing can be neglectd to an EXTENT, but ultimately its up to the old calorie in vs calorie out, granted the person on the diet is not sedentary, but is mobile during the day (ie. cardio and weights)?

 

[Joe Stenson]

so joe, what youre saying is carb timing can be neglectd to an EXTENT, but ultimately its up to the old calorie in vs calorie out, granted the person on the diet is not sedentary, but is mobile during the day (ie. cardio and weights)?

Carb-timing can really be neglected altogether if you don't want to stress about things. If you want optimal results, then maybe it's something to consider. (Note, I'm not changing my stance on carbs before bed. That last statement was referring more to centering carbs around workouts.)

And it's ALWAYS up to the old calorie in vs. calorie out, regardless of activity levels. Activity levels merely impact one side of the equation (calories out).

 

[thelion2005]

question: ive never been big on dieting, but recently ive gotten health crazy. in the mornings ive been running alot and eating well. however, i heard that carbs after 5pm is a big no no, and that carbs at dinner should be very limited if any at all.. is this true? i am going for a fairly high protein , but low carb, calorie diet. this is what i did today, as an example:

morning:

8am morning run:
5mins fast run, 5 mins slow pace, 1 min sprint, 2 min slow 1 min sprint, 25 min walk back (basically HIIT). abs stuff, pushups, pullups (cant do weights for awhile due to a shoulder injury).

9am breakfast

cereal
grill cheese sandwich
banana
cup of OJ

12pm lunch
chicken, pasta, salad, milk

3pm pb&j sandwich

6pm dinner

chicken salad, protein shake

am i doing something wrong? or am i on the right track? this low carb thing really sucks though cuz im craving a grilled cheese sandwich, but i dont know whether or not i should have one. should i hold off on carbs till tmr for breakfast? or is it ok to get some carbs for dinner? thanks.

Think No Simple Carbs.
Eat mucho complex carbs with each meal and all those cravings will go away.
Flesh, eggs, veggies, cheese and water.
Look for hidden sugar - OJ? Pasta?

 

[JonPee]

joe lost all credibility with the a calorie is a calorie statement.

 

[Joe Stenson]

joe lost all credibility with the a calorie is a calorie statement.

Enlighten the rest of us.

And remember, I said a calorie is a calorie "providing you already have adequate protein and EFAs". Here's a hypothetical example: A guy takes in 1.5g protein/lb bodyweight, 10g fish oil, and a tbsp flax oil, while staying in a weekly caloric deficit of 3500 calories (enough to lose 1 lb of fat). Please explain to me, and the rest of us, what the difference is going to be whether the remaining calories come from oats, donuts, or plain table sugar. Make sure that your answer emphasizes exactly why this guy is not going to lose 1lb of fat eating the donuts (a fat and high GI carb mix) or table sugar (high GI carb), yet could if he ate the oats (a low GI carb).

 

[Sub-Zero]

I really don't know it's all different per person. general guideline I guess is about say 2 hours? Depends how long insulin lingers around. Use a glucometer to be certain is really all I can tell ya.

Your metabolism slows at night, and you can't burn fat with insulin present in your system, so...Why hinder fat store burning at night by eating anything warranting an insulin response? That could include diet drinks too. Artificial sweeteners CAN cause insulin spikes in some people.

is alchohol sugars in sugarless gums cause insulin spikes too (no im not joking i honestly dont know)

and also, 2 hours aint bad, i stop about 4 hours or more before bed.

thanks

 

[sublime35]

sugar alcohols do not cause a blood sugar spike that's why so many diabetic foods are made with them. they do have have calories though so just watch out for that.

 

[pintoca]

The funny thing is people like to complicate things, but really a calorie IS a calorie...especially when you take adequate protein and EFAs as a given.

.

Just to clear this, and as this is a common cause of confusion, a calorie (or correctly said, a Kcal, since we are talking about food) is only a calorie when we are looking at it from the Thermodynamics point of view (simply as an energy measure).

However, when we see it from the cutting perspective (and defining cutting as the science/art of MAXIMIZING fat loss while MINIMIZING LBM loss) and not simply as losing weight, then if I were to accept that a "calorie is a calorie" then I would have to disregard/place as incorrect, the following premises:

1. Macronutrients Ratios modification: A well known fact is that a variation as small as 10% in your ratios can make the difference between a diet that works and one that will not, or between a diet that will make you feel miserable and weak (0 carbs) against one that will make you feel strong (50+% carbs)

2. Thermic Effect of Food: Lean protein has a TE of up to 30%, whereas fat and refined carbs can be as low as only 3% TE. Natural starchy and fibrous carbs are a close second at 20%. This alone would have a significant impact in terms of nett caloric availability. If you eat 100 cals of fat, about 97 of them will be available to your body after digestion, whereas with cals of oats, about 80 will be available. Your statement above, when read in light of your disclaimer, should read then: "A carb calorie is a carb calorie," is still wrong by the difference in Thermic Effect of both simple/refined carbs and low GI carbs.

3. Meal timing according to Metabolic process: Case in point, PWO nutrition. If a cal is a cal, regardless I have my protein intake covered, I could get away with pure carbs (of any type) or pure fat (EFAs or not) post work out and forget completely about insuline spikes and glycogen replenishment.

there are other subtle factors though, like insuline resistance and "empty cals" (sugar table is 99% pure calories, no vitamins, no minerals, no proteins, it actually depletes minerals from your body. As a general rule, one should not be concerned only with the number of calories per day, but with the nutritient density of those cals (especially important if we are to compare sugar table with oats, for example)

As a final point, a deficit of 3500 cals/week will not automatically result in 1 lb of fat lost,
in most cases it might not even result in 1 lb of weight lost at all, it all depends on how efficient your body is at running your current diet.

As for your example: "Make sure that your answer emphasizes exactly why this guy is not going to lose 1lb of fat eating the donuts (a fat and high GI carb mix) or table sugar (high GI carb), yet could if he ate the oats (a low GI carb)."

It is indeed quite simple: If you eat your protein and your EFAs and you fill the gap with donuts, there is a VERY high chance that the insulin spike caused by the simple carbs will make you more prone to store that donut fat. Moreover, you are apt to be burning those readily available donuts carbs in your daily activities... remember that fat-burning is a VERY slow process that only kicks in after some 25-mins of cardio activity, provided there are no other carb sources available. The probability of making this diet fail turns into certainty with the correct timing: Imagine eating your donuts before going to bed, or before doing cardio (thus rendering cardio useless)

Our bodies are very complex systems, we don't like to make it complex... it's a complex environment and your food choices/timing will dictate whether you succeed or not.