routine - experienced BB's opinions please!!!

[enigma4dub]

TUT is not the stimulus or causality - it just sort of falls out correlated under normal conditions. If it was causality, it would matter in all conditions. Case in point, you need to get a decent amount of mechanical work in for hypertrophy (i.e. the microtrauma thing) or perform a given number of reps with a weight heavy enough (intensity) to do the job. There's an inherent balance in there. Flat out, the more you do, the more microtrauma you get (pretty much, I guess it could get ridiculous at some point but the relationship is fairly linear for all practical purposes). So stimulus for a given training session = workload (sets X reps X weight). It just might not be the best idea for consistent progress to arrange your training with a single massive day and then curl up in a ball for a week paying for it. So thinking about this - how does TUT fit in? Real simple, it flat out takes more time to do more work. This is why TUT is correlated. If TUT was the causality though (not workload), super slow reps would be great all the time, or less reps but same amount of total time. Well once you get extreme like that TUT falls apart because you break it away from workload (basically you aren't doing more mechanical work for microtrauma, you are doing less work more slowly). It's not all that simple but that's the big chunk. Also, if you are interested in getting strong using maximal force results in maximal concentric contraction and bar speed - this is not a negative aspect, it is very positive even though the affect on the TUT calculation is negative (workload is still equal though, bar speed is increased so time is decreased). So workload is king, don't distort TUT. TUT looks good largely because it's correlated with workload and a lot of the big TUT guys are low volume guys with some kind of ideology so the last thing they want to hear is about workload of which volume (total number of reps or sets x reps) is the major component as intensity/weight on the bar has to stay in fairly fixed bounds for resistance training.

quoted from madcow's site

 

[SaiBoT]

i dont agree. the time under tension is way too short for hypertrophy. strength does not equate to muscle size increase. strength has alot more to do with the central nervous system triggering more muscle fiber to move efficiently in a range of motion, not increase size.

You can do only 2 reps and be under tension long enough depending on how slow u do the reps. Anyway everybody knows that 8 reps is optimal for hipertrophy the thing is you'll eventually hit a plateau because you lack the strength to increase the loads. If you see my previous post i recommended the 5x5 for the first exercise and all the following on 8reps. Strength as you say has alot more to do with the central nervous system triggering more muscle fiber to move efficiently in a range of motion. More muscle fiber activation is halfway for a greater hipertrophy if you know how to manipulate the rep range, but time undertension is very relative...

 

[timtim]

enigma4dub:

youre quoting madcow, hes a 5x5 proponent. of course everything he wrote will make correlations to the 5x5 being the best training route.

for newbies and intermediate trainers, you need strength and 5x5 is great. for people who want to develop bbing type muscle structure, weight has little to do with size. check out charles glass and his routines and the weights his trainees use. its all about tut and muscle activation.

ive been training along time, 20 years now. i can db row 180s for 5x5. i dont feel it nearly as much as as an isolated db row with 60 pounds with a 3-2-3 tempo. not even close. db bench, i easily throw 120s for 5x5. when i change the weight and tempo, huge difference.

to each his own. everything has a place and everything is effective to certain extents but 5x5 is not ideal for growth in my opinion and i still cycle 5x5 into my yearly training routine, but those arent growth periods. they are strength periods.

 

[enigma4dub]

enigma4dub:

youre quoting madcow, hes a 5x5 proponent. of course everything he wrote will make correlations to the 5x5 being the best training route.

for newbies and intermediate trainers, you need strength and 5x5 is great. for people who want to develop bbing type muscle structure, weight has little to do with size. check out charles glass and his routines and the weights his trainees use. its all about tut and muscle activation.

ive been training along time, 20 years now. i can db row 180s for 5x5. i dont feel it nearly as much as as an isolated db row with 60 pounds with a 3-2-3 tempo. not even close. db bench, i easily throw 120s for 5x5. when i change the weight and tempo, huge difference.

to each his own. everything has a place and everything is effective to certain extents but 5x5 is not ideal for growth in my opinion and i still cycle 5x5 into my yearly training routine, but those arent growth periods. they are strength periods.

you didnt listen to anything i wrote or quoted. its not about rep range the point isnt five sets of five. its basic calories in vs calories out and its packaged in a way that fosters progression. and i do believe lots of frequency in the compound lifts is better than isolation for building muscle.

the key is work load. and ive never said its is the end all be all of training and neither did he himself. the 5x5 is a guide.

and for your reference of feeling it in your row what does feeling the nuances of your lat have to do with building muscle? are you a believer in pumps and soreness being a good indication of progress?

also do you use aas?

 

[enigma4dub]

here is an example of what i think is an elite athletes log and his training. note is not 5x5 lol. but it is good training. and hes got more muscle than almost anyone thats posted on this site.

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/w...ting/kickbackzz-pec-deckzz-flyezz-506348.html

 

[timtim]

you didnt listen to anything i wrote or quoted. its not about rep range the point isnt five sets of five. its basic calories in vs calories out and its packaged in a way that fosters progression. and i do believe lots of frequency in the compound lifts is better than isolation for building muscle.

the key is work load. and ive never said its is the end all be all of training.

relax alittle, i did read your info, or i should say madcows info.

i thought this was a discussion on effective bbing training. 5x5 is not ideal for bb style training. thats pretty clear.

also, calories in versus calories out has been debunked for years. with that mentality, i could eat candy and pizza all day but as long as my expenditures are within limits, id grow or lose weight - depending upon what i want at the time.

 

[enigma4dub]

relax alittle, i did read your info, or i should say madcows info.

i thought this was a discussion on effective bbing training. 5x5 is not ideal for bb style training. thats pretty clear.

also, calories in versus calories out has been debunked for years. with that mentality, i could eat candy and pizza all day but as long as my expenditures are within limits, id grow or lose weight - depending upon what i want at the time.

how can one gain weight when he expends more than he consumes. are you disagreeing with thermodynamics?

did you check out the link to the journal?

 

[timtim]

how can one gain weight when he expends more than he consumes. are you disagreeing with thermodynamics?

did you check out the link to the journal?

all calories are not equal, thats where im coming from so calories in versus calories out isnt truely effective.

the journal is a good one. i think the author has different goals than a bber and his physique looks like that (from his avatar).

i think your goals dictate your training. im more for the illusion of bbing, i dont like the big but blocky look. so 5x5 might be perfect for someones goals and tut might match others. like i said earlier, my training is consistently changing from phase to phase so i find a time for all methods to be effective.

 

[enigma4dub]

all calories are not equal, thats where im coming from so calories in versus calories out isnt truely effective.

the journal is a good one. i think the author has different goals than a bber and his physique looks like that (from his avatar).

i think your goals dictate your training. im more for the illusion of bbing, i dont like the big but blocky look. so 5x5 might be perfect for someones goals and tut might match others. like i said earlier, my training is consistently changing from phase to phase so i find a time for all methods to be effective.

the idea is that that physique is ready to address any weakness in symmetry, if that was the goal.

muscle bulging from every direction isnt what a bb wants? funny thats what i thought the bb scene was about.

now you said this type of training doesnt result in hypertrophy. and i provided you an example of a monster that trains with the same theories i believe in. and its no accident that hes as strong as an ox.

and im pretty sure most of the bb's here would love biggt's avi to be there own.

 

[SaiBoT]

Strength training does have place on bodybuilding routine! Unless you realize that you will never reach your full POTENTIAL! As long as you periodize your training, by including hypertrophy routines and strength routines you will be on the right track for maximum achievements. Oh and calorie isn't just a calorie...