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Inner Chest
- Thread starter WarriorPL
- Start date
I do not totally agree with the oneway street of Cack and Robboe, but they DO have affected my training philosophy in important ways, which has caused me to change my judgement on certain points.
My verdict:
- it think it is NOT possible to fully isolate parts of muscles or heads....
- I DO think it is possible to EMPHASIZE part of the muscle and make improvement in that area
- HOWEVER most exercises that EMPHASIZE parts of muscles are SMALL exercises, THE OVERALL development of BIG EXERCISES (I go with Robboe and Cack here) will in MOST CASES give MORE DEVELOPMENT in that target area too.
I.e: A big exercise like Heavy weighted dips may eventually grant you more sought after "Horseshoe shape" in the triceps than a small target exercise, such as dumbell kickbacks
- I think that IF u want to bring lacking areas up to par, you should at LEAST use another BIG EXERCISE that SLIGHTLY emphasizes that area more.
SO for innerchest you do not replace barbell pressing with pec-deck (which in my opinion does involve more inner pecs, but is TOO SMALL EXERCISE!) but replace barbell presses with dumbeel presses which allow for full range of motion AND heavy weight to be used
Oh and keep the pecdeck for the end of your workout, do some sets of 10-8 resp immediately followed by push-ups or dips (real kicker)
- I do NOT think you can your muscle shape blueprint BUT i think you CAN realize it's FULL POTENTIAL which can cause you to have a peaked biceps, which you didn't have three years ago!
Bottom line: if your genetics do not allow it you will not build the innerchest, but you wont know until you really tried it!
And this knowledge may manifest itself sooner if u stick to the big exercises.
My verdict:
- it think it is NOT possible to fully isolate parts of muscles or heads....
- I DO think it is possible to EMPHASIZE part of the muscle and make improvement in that area
- HOWEVER most exercises that EMPHASIZE parts of muscles are SMALL exercises, THE OVERALL development of BIG EXERCISES (I go with Robboe and Cack here) will in MOST CASES give MORE DEVELOPMENT in that target area too.
I.e: A big exercise like Heavy weighted dips may eventually grant you more sought after "Horseshoe shape" in the triceps than a small target exercise, such as dumbell kickbacks
- I think that IF u want to bring lacking areas up to par, you should at LEAST use another BIG EXERCISE that SLIGHTLY emphasizes that area more.
SO for innerchest you do not replace barbell pressing with pec-deck (which in my opinion does involve more inner pecs, but is TOO SMALL EXERCISE!) but replace barbell presses with dumbeel presses which allow for full range of motion AND heavy weight to be used
Oh and keep the pecdeck for the end of your workout, do some sets of 10-8 resp immediately followed by push-ups or dips (real kicker)
- I do NOT think you can your muscle shape blueprint BUT i think you CAN realize it's FULL POTENTIAL which can cause you to have a peaked biceps, which you didn't have three years ago!
Bottom line: if your genetics do not allow it you will not build the innerchest, but you wont know until you really tried it!
And this knowledge may manifest itself sooner if u stick to the big exercises.
Prolly your best post i've seen goahead. Well done.
M56M: there prolly is one universal chest exercise, but BS such as isolation of certain parts of the muscle have shrouded it.
Also, you can 'emphasise' certain parts of muscles more e.g. inclines on pec minor but this will not cause localised growth.
End of story.
M56M: there prolly is one universal chest exercise, but BS such as isolation of certain parts of the muscle have shrouded it.
Also, you can 'emphasise' certain parts of muscles more e.g. inclines on pec minor but this will not cause localised growth.
End of story.
MonStar1023
New member
M56M said:
100% AGREED M56M
I couldnt agree more dude. There would seriously be ONE exercise for every single bodypart if you couldnt stress different parts of the muscle group.. each exercise contributes a little bit differently to whole package I think. You need to hit each muscle group with every possible exercise from every possible angle. For example I really believe that for chest you need an exercise for your upper and lower chest, along with your inner and outer chest. Its obviously impossible to isolate any part of your pecs but pec-deck flyes and cable crossovers emphasize your inner chest just as flat dumbbell flyes (focusing on the stretch) hit your outer chest more.
Robboe...
No one said anything about localized growth I never said that doing inclines would spur growth in your upper pecs and your lower chest would just stay the same or get smaller. In my case somehow really doing tons of incline barbell presses really helped my upper chest fill out to the max especially right under my collarbone. I mean why did adding chins to the start of my back routine add inches to the width of my back? Why didnt rows or deadlifts or pulldowns ever do this for my back? I mean how did dumbbell pullovers really thicked up my outer lats under my armpits a month or 2 after I addded them to my back routine?
I too agree that you can put more emphasis on a certain part of a muscle but for example, compare the pec deck movement for pecs and the curl movement for bicep. They are similar they way that the muscle contracts, now as pointed out, you wouldn't say when curling that you are putting an emphasis on the lower or the upper part of the bicep or that you were isolating either upper or lower so why would it be different for the pec. Again upper and lower chest yes, but not outter and inner. Well at any rate that is my $.02
I believe you were able to make localized progression in your lats because the lat targetting exercises used were BIG EXERCISES (chins db rows...).
Probably you would'nt have made this kind of progression if u was to try and pinpoint the lats by doing straight arm cable pushdown or 1 arm cable rows....
and clearly deadlifts build thick spine , traps and lower backs but doesn't spread your wings....
My believe is that the effectiveness of a certain exercise for certain muscle can very roughly be measured by:
the weight you are able to use for lets say 8 reps:
- light 2 stars * *
- medium 5 stars * * * * *
- heavy 9 stars * * * * * * * * *
(my assumption is you get extra bonus stars for being able to do really heavy weight with 8 reps, as a strong person will likely be able to develope not only a BIT, but MUCH more muscle mass than a by nature weak person)
Multiplied by the RELATIVE amount of stress upon the muscle u wish to target compared to the stress this exercise causes in other assisting muscles and other exercises:
- small 2 stars * *
- medium 5 stars * * * * *
- high 9 stars * * * * * * * * *
(my assumption is you get extra bonus stars for being able to really target the muscle as ie dumbell curl gives MUCH more absolute stress to the biceps than ie reverse barbell curls, training forearms)
Now how would this work out for Average Joe doing triceps?
We give him three exercise to choose from , he must choos ONLY one!:
- dumbell kickback
- triceps pushdown
- weighted dips
Given Average Joes natural strentgh , length of limbs and biomechanics the equotions work out as follows:
DUMBELL KIKBACK:
amount of weight : 2 stars
amount of rel stress: 9 stars
VERDICT: 18 stars
TRICEPS PUSHDOWN:
amount of weight : 9 stars
amount of rel stress: 5 stars
VERDICT: 45 stars
WEIGHTED DIPS
(Joe is not very strong (yet) and still has problems making more than 4 reps with bodyweight because of his weak frontdelts)
amount of weight : 5 stars
(he is forced to do dips between benches as he cannot make 8 reps dips with bodyweight)
amount of rel stress: 5 stars
VERDICT: 25 stars
In this case Joe could for the time being make most triceps progression by using the triceps pushdown, if he gets enough overall strentgh he might try weighted dips again.
Lets compare this to another subject, Fredick.C.Hatfield aka "Dr Squat" who is used to lifting heavy weights in compound movements and has powerfull delts and pecs from doing heavy benching and millitary presses......
DUMBELL KIKBACK:
amount of weight : 2 stars
amount of rel stress: 5 stars
VERDICT: 18 stars
Dr squat is not used to do isolation movements and while using an absolutely heavier weight than average joe he find it difficult not to use momentum and keep arm in position (he has to reprogram his neuromuscular patheways)
TRICEPS PUSHDOWN:
amount of weight : 5 stars
amount of rel stress: 5 stars
VERDICT: 25 stars
this is a nice exercise for dr squat, he is able to lean somewhat forward and flare out his arms so the movement becomes a bit like a benchpressing motion. Dr squat is able to use a nice weight and get a nice pump in his triceps.
WEIGHTED DIPS
Dr squats hooks 3 plates of 25 lbs to his Belt and with all the power his body can generate he cranks out 8 grueling reps. The first two reps felt less specific than the triceps pushdown, but the sheer amount of weight made more than up for that after the fifth rep Dr Squat felt like his arms were exploding....
amount of weight : 9 stars
amount of rel stress: 5 stars
VERDICT: 45 stars
Yup, definately raw powermovents for Dr. Squat at this stage.
I hope this inspires you to find the right exercise for your program....
Probably you would'nt have made this kind of progression if u was to try and pinpoint the lats by doing straight arm cable pushdown or 1 arm cable rows....
and clearly deadlifts build thick spine , traps and lower backs but doesn't spread your wings....
My believe is that the effectiveness of a certain exercise for certain muscle can very roughly be measured by:
the weight you are able to use for lets say 8 reps:
- light 2 stars * *
- medium 5 stars * * * * *
- heavy 9 stars * * * * * * * * *
(my assumption is you get extra bonus stars for being able to do really heavy weight with 8 reps, as a strong person will likely be able to develope not only a BIT, but MUCH more muscle mass than a by nature weak person)
Multiplied by the RELATIVE amount of stress upon the muscle u wish to target compared to the stress this exercise causes in other assisting muscles and other exercises:
- small 2 stars * *
- medium 5 stars * * * * *
- high 9 stars * * * * * * * * *
(my assumption is you get extra bonus stars for being able to really target the muscle as ie dumbell curl gives MUCH more absolute stress to the biceps than ie reverse barbell curls, training forearms)
Now how would this work out for Average Joe doing triceps?
We give him three exercise to choose from , he must choos ONLY one!:
- dumbell kickback
- triceps pushdown
- weighted dips
Given Average Joes natural strentgh , length of limbs and biomechanics the equotions work out as follows:
DUMBELL KIKBACK:
amount of weight : 2 stars
amount of rel stress: 9 stars
VERDICT: 18 stars
TRICEPS PUSHDOWN:
amount of weight : 9 stars
amount of rel stress: 5 stars
VERDICT: 45 stars
WEIGHTED DIPS
(Joe is not very strong (yet) and still has problems making more than 4 reps with bodyweight because of his weak frontdelts)
amount of weight : 5 stars
(he is forced to do dips between benches as he cannot make 8 reps dips with bodyweight)
amount of rel stress: 5 stars
VERDICT: 25 stars
In this case Joe could for the time being make most triceps progression by using the triceps pushdown, if he gets enough overall strentgh he might try weighted dips again.
Lets compare this to another subject, Fredick.C.Hatfield aka "Dr Squat" who is used to lifting heavy weights in compound movements and has powerfull delts and pecs from doing heavy benching and millitary presses......
DUMBELL KIKBACK:
amount of weight : 2 stars
amount of rel stress: 5 stars
VERDICT: 18 stars
Dr squat is not used to do isolation movements and while using an absolutely heavier weight than average joe he find it difficult not to use momentum and keep arm in position (he has to reprogram his neuromuscular patheways)
TRICEPS PUSHDOWN:
amount of weight : 5 stars
amount of rel stress: 5 stars
VERDICT: 25 stars
this is a nice exercise for dr squat, he is able to lean somewhat forward and flare out his arms so the movement becomes a bit like a benchpressing motion. Dr squat is able to use a nice weight and get a nice pump in his triceps.
WEIGHTED DIPS
Dr squats hooks 3 plates of 25 lbs to his Belt and with all the power his body can generate he cranks out 8 grueling reps. The first two reps felt less specific than the triceps pushdown, but the sheer amount of weight made more than up for that after the fifth rep Dr Squat felt like his arms were exploding....
amount of weight : 9 stars
amount of rel stress: 5 stars
VERDICT: 45 stars
Yup, definately raw powermovents for Dr. Squat at this stage.
I hope this inspires you to find the right exercise for your program....
ciscokid1 said:
Thats completely different, if you want to compare curls with bench, fare enough, they match up there is no certain isolation. But depending on how you turn your wrist you can isolate different parts of the bicep(upper or lower) using such things as cables, etc. If you do the pec deck RIGHT, then you should defnitely feel more of a burn in your inner chest, yes it works everything else, but it emphasizes more on a specific are. Not trying to argure just trying to make you think about it. My .02.
M56M
For fucks sake.
Tuna guy: I WAS open to other view points fuckin' ages ago before i learned this was all Bull shit.
Monstar: It was the fact that your WHOLE chest got bigger that you noticed an increase in your 'upper chest'.
Horizontal rows and vertical rows are a completely different subject. The chest = one muscle. The 'back' = several muscles, so it is obvious that different exercises will bare different results.
M65M: You cannot isolate different points of the bicep - there are two points of insertion[hence "bi" - two.]
Oh, and monstar, i can tell you now that Nasser El Sonbaty's first routine was an all over body routine which was the following:
[all for 1 set]
Squats [thighs and a bit mo']
bench [chest/triceps]
Dead [bit of everything]
Row [back]
Press [delts]
Chin [lats/biceps]
So there is really one universal exercise for everything. Nasser used that routine when he was starting out and got pretty f'n big from it. [obviously he takes a bucket load of drugs] but it cannot be denied that that routine would work.
Tuna guy: I WAS open to other view points fuckin' ages ago before i learned this was all Bull shit.
Monstar: It was the fact that your WHOLE chest got bigger that you noticed an increase in your 'upper chest'.
Horizontal rows and vertical rows are a completely different subject. The chest = one muscle. The 'back' = several muscles, so it is obvious that different exercises will bare different results.
M65M: You cannot isolate different points of the bicep - there are two points of insertion[hence "bi" - two.]
Oh, and monstar, i can tell you now that Nasser El Sonbaty's first routine was an all over body routine which was the following:
[all for 1 set]
Squats [thighs and a bit mo']
bench [chest/triceps]
Dead [bit of everything]
Row [back]
Press [delts]
Chin [lats/biceps]
So there is really one universal exercise for everything. Nasser used that routine when he was starting out and got pretty f'n big from it. [obviously he takes a bucket load of drugs] but it cannot be denied that that routine would work.
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