I was cruising the anabolic board today...

[asdfzxcv]

I will say the best PM I ever had was from a young guy who was just starting out and bought himself a home setup. He PM'd me to ask about exercise substitution - which is generally the kiss of death. He goes on to say how he spent all his money on a power rack and olympic set and didn't have the cash on hand to get the bench yet. He figured that he'd be able to squat, pull from the floor, row, and chin and still have military and push presses for overhead until he could afford a bench. And this guy was from the US too which is even more stunning. The guy had never posted here before but he had been reading the stuff I was writing and took some time to check on it - basically finding I wasn't crazy and this was very basic common stuff although stark contrast to Muscle and Fitness and what most do at commerical fitness centers. I was so impressed with the guy. Made me real happy to save someone the entire learning curve for a change rather than try to fix all the bad info that's been accumulated.

That was me a few months ago when I first started lifting at home.I must say things are going well due to the efforts of people like you who dedicate their time to spreading useful info on the net.Keep up the good work madcow2,you are really making a difference for lots of people out there.

 

[BiggT]

Great stuff Madcow.

 

[Ozz2001]

It was a SLOW day at work today, so I spent entirely too much time on the internet.

I was serfing through a lot of posts on the anabolic board and I noticed something pretty disturbing. The vast majority of guys on there are probably between 5'7 and 6'2 and weigh no more than 200lbs, maybe 210 or so for the guys on the taller end. They aren't professional athletes, but normal guys, college students, family men with careers, a lot of times very successful careers, and none of them really have out of this world goals. Maybe a guy 5'11 would like to weigh 220lbs with decent bodyfat. Nobody seems to have goals that are unattainable or unrealistic.

What I see is a complete (it almost looks deliberate) disregard for anything training-related. What I do see is a total waste of money on supplements and what I think of as a frightening imbalance where there is zero knowledge on proper training and eating ENOUGH, but chemist-level knowledge of drugs and ancillaries and nutritionist-level knowledge of the breakdown of various foods.

My point is that all of this SHOULD be so simple. If all you want is some more muscle and better body-composition and training is a serious hobby and not what you do for a living to support yourself/your family, all of your goals can be accomplished and surpassed with a solid knowledge of training theory and grasping the simple concept of calories in vs. calories out. Instead of researching exotic anabolic compounds and making your local GNC a fortune, you'd be better off reading Madcow's website and getting a big grocery order.

I have no problem with steroids, so don't get me wrong, but even steroids shouldn't be as complicated as they are made out. And in terms of most people's goals, they are totally unnecessary. Even the guys with more extreme goals can reach them with say 200-400mg of test a week, 200mg Deca......

Anyway, there was no point to this, just a semi-rant I guess. I understand that somebody aspiring to stand on a Mr. Olympia stage needs to do what they need to do.......I understand some people want to push their potential (I have fallen in here a lot of times)..but for the other, vast majority of the guys who lift to maybe be 6'1 and 220lbs with 11% bodyfat and respectable gym lifts, there is a much easier way to go about this.

Some of what you say is true,theres some dum people living on a dream...
At 40 and the way i look you can single me out of the line up period.As for mad 5x5 why would i need it? If you dont know how to workout you shouldnt be lifting period. People dont need a program...The program is the one you make from learning how and what it takes to make your body grow! Everyones different you can just say everone run this program and you will reach your goals because then your just bullshitting everyone.I can post up 1000 of workout programs from pros to nobodys but they all have a meaning but doesnt mean there right for you! If stuck to a program i really dont think i would keep growing at all.I might mantain what i started with but thats about it....Key word..........Shock....

 

[Madcow2]

Some of what you say is true,theres some dum people living on a dream...
At 40 and the way i look you can single me out of the line up period.As for mad 5x5 why would i need it? If you dont know how to workout you shouldnt be lifting period. People dont need a program...The program is the one you make from learning how and what it takes to make your body grow! Everyones different you can just say everone run this program and you will reach your goals because then your just bullshitting everyone.I can post up 1000 of workout programs from pros to nobodys but they all have a meaning but doesnt mean there right for you! If stuck to a program i really dont think i would keep growing at all.I might mantain what i started with but thats about it....Key word..........Shock....

I don't think he was talking about any specific program, and certainly I don't think (and I know he feels the same way) the 5x5 example is anything more than a solid cookie cutter program but far better an excellent example for teaching. He's talking about training theory and understanding how to program for systematic progress (which when he said they should read my website - the massive bulk of it has nothing to do with 5x5 programs but is totally concerned with training theory and teaching). It's not rocket science by any means but there is a lot more to it than the knowledgebase commonly reflected in BBing which is just to go in and do some stuff. And diet is a big part of that with people getting lost in all kinds of micro bullshit and hamstringing themselves with 'not enough'.

Like I alluded to above and as I've said countless times before, the whole reason for using the 5x5 as an example is because it is very simple, intuitively easy to see the parts moving, and illustrates the use of managing workload (obviously frequency and the compulsive need for huge amounts of isolation exercises fit in there too). There was a reason why I chose to use it and it's not about a 'golden program' which is the absolute worst thing to take away from it and totally counter to the entire point (which I specifically said above), it's about understanding basic training theory and being able to construct a methodology to reliably support systematic progress. And to the point, the people who are behind it certainly never held it constant and were always tailoring programing to specific individuals at specific points in time - those templates are more static snapshots that are setup to work fairly well for the general populace. That's the key right there, doesn't really matter how one schemes it as long as they can quantify progress and understand how to manage the variables properly. This is why the major bulk of my website is related to training theory and increasing this knowledge where only a small fraction has much to do with specific programs.

So no one pitches the 'golden program' theory here despite the fact that it has obviously been very successful. Most of the people who have run it successfully rarely run it more than twice in stock form. Hell, I can count maybe 10 weeks in my entire life that my own training looked exactly like that program. Most times it looked vastly different (although obviously the principles were the same but that's any good program). It's about understanding programing and how to manage it. Not about one best program or any static program being even remotely optimal for any person. People who come away with that, haven't spent time reading what it is I and others have been saying.

 

[BiggT]

Madcow said everything I was going to, and probably worded it better too.

The point of my post wasn't "All people not doing the traditional 5x5 program are morons" lol....it was that a basic grasp of training theory and the concept of calories in vs calories out will get most people to acheive reasonable goals. Most people want noticeable muscle and better body composition, you don't need anabolics to acheive that. Those 5x5 setups are probably the easiest example to use to teach people training theory, the goal isn't to have a bunch of mindless people doing "5x5" because they read it somewhere, the goal is to have a bunch of people who understand the principals behind the routine and who can apply them and program them and be able to think for themselves. Going to the gym to run through a list of exercises for a 'bodypart' and just blindly trying to get sore is not training

What I was getting at in the original post is that it is shocking to me the amount of 5' 10" 180lb guys who are 'plateaued ' and who are concerned that progress has stopped on week 12 of their Test/D-Bol/Fina/Winny cycle because their bench is "stuck" at 250lbs and want to know is they should add in insulin and gh with their PCT ....these aren't people with unrealistic goals and they aren't people with unattainable goals, these guys should be able to progress naturally for a long, long time. They are people, who with a little bit of knowledge in the areas of training and caloric surplus, could realize their goals and more without wasting money on supplements, magazines, and going through the trouble of steroids. Basically, if you do not know how to make any kind of training progress without drugs, then you have no business taking them.

 

[Illuminati]

It was a SLOW day at work today, so I spent entirely too much time on the internet.

I was serfing through a lot of posts on the anabolic board and I noticed something pretty disturbing. The vast majority of guys on there are probably between 5'7 and 6'2 and weigh no more than 200lbs, maybe 210 or so for the guys on the taller end. They aren't professional athletes, but normal guys, college students, family men with careers, a lot of times very successful careers, and none of them really have out of this world goals. Maybe a guy 5'11 would like to weigh 220lbs with decent bodyfat. Nobody seems to have goals that are unattainable or unrealistic.

What I see is a complete (it almost looks deliberate) disregard for anything training-related. What I do see is a total waste of money on supplements and what I think of as a frightening imbalance where there is zero knowledge on proper training and eating ENOUGH, but chemist-level knowledge of drugs and ancillaries and nutritionist-level knowledge of the breakdown of various foods.

My point is that all of this SHOULD be so simple. If all you want is some more muscle and better body-composition and training is a serious hobby and not what you do for a living to support yourself/your family, all of your goals can be accomplished and surpassed with a solid knowledge of training theory and grasping the simple concept of calories in vs. calories out. Instead of researching exotic anabolic compounds and making your local GNC a fortune, you'd be better off reading Madcow's website and getting a big grocery order.

I have no problem with steroids, so don't get me wrong, but even steroids shouldn't be as complicated as they are made out. And in terms of most people's goals, they are totally unnecessary. Even the guys with more extreme goals can reach them with say 200-400mg of test a week, 200mg Deca......

Anyway, there was no point to this, just a semi-rant I guess. I understand that somebody aspiring to stand on a Mr. Olympia stage needs to do what they need to do.......I understand some people want to push their potential (I have fallen in here a lot of times)..but for the other, vast majority of the guys who lift to maybe be 6'1 and 220lbs with 11% bodyfat and respectable gym lifts, there is a much easier way to go about this.

bro. I have been thinking the same thing for a while now. there is so much mis-information that is given over on that board. Granted, you won't see much about training, because its the anabolics board. That is why you dont see it there. But, you are right. Them majority of the people on there, don't know a thing about training. And it is very evident, because anytime that anyone says "I'm planning on doing...blah,blah, blah" someone jumps in and says "you need to up that another 200mgs per week, and x amount of this, and extend it another 4 weeks." And then everybody on that board jumps in, and agrees, cause they want to look like they know what they are talking about. If these people knew a thing or two about training and dieting, they wouldn't have to use the massive amounts of steroids that they claim they do. If they spent as much time in the gym as they do researching steroids, they would be amazed at their results.
Someone said that they are amazed that they are 19, and bigger and stronger than most on that boards. This really is no surprise. I think the real surprise would be the number of people on that board that have actually used them.
Ok, that is my addative to this rant and rave. Dont think I'm completely ripping on that board. Cause I'm not. There are some people over there that are knowledgeable. But very few.

 

[Tweakle]

Even the guys with more extreme goals can reach them with say 200-400mg of test a week, 200mg Deca.

you forget Genetics. For hardgainers and low responsers those doses simply don't do anything after you get to 50lbs over your natural max, trust me I speak from experience...

But yes, I roll my eyes at some of the tiny men on there bragging about all the lean quality mass they put on everytime they cycle, the primo and tbol kiddies are the best... 5+ cycles and still weighing a mighty 160, maybe time to find another hobby.

I run a LOT of gear, I have to as I get maybe 1/4 the results from it that other guys would from the same dose. 1g a week 52 weeks a year is essential to keep me over 245 and lean..

 

[BiggT]

you forget Genetics. For hardgainers and low responsers those doses simply don't do anything after you get to 50lbs over your natural max, trust me I speak from experience...

But yes, I roll my eyes at some of the tiny men on there bragging about all the lean quality mass they put on everytime they cycle, the primo and tbol kiddies are the best... 5+ cycles and still weighing a mighty 160, maybe time to find another hobby.

I run a LOT of gear, I have to as I get maybe 1/4 the results from it that other guys would from the same dose. 1g a week 52 weeks a year is essential to keep me over 245 and lean..

I agree, but I sure as hell hope you know I wasn't referring to guys like you, lol.....a lean 245 with a 700 deadlift is not the same as a guy 180 who dreams of one day doing rep work on the bench with 225.....most guys don't even aspire to weigh 245 lean, I was just saying the "LL Cool J look" and the "Brad Pitt Pecs" that 99% of those guys aspire to are MORE than attainable naturally.

 

[Tweakle]

Good to know bro, I dont want to be classed with the Spring Break crew or the Primo Pushers You know, 200-220 & ripped is awesome if someone is 5'10" given the right stucture... but in internet fairy land 'lean' usually means under 18% bf

 

[Guinness5.0]

Good topic. I seem to remember when I first started getting interested in gear that the vets of the board I frequented at the time were very good about making the new guys post their stats before they'd help 'em, telling people to wait to juice til they've come a little further natty, advising them to run a lower dose than the 500 test/400 deca cycels that newbs always proposed, etc. Now it seems like everybody's so eager to show they're 'gear savvy' that they just throw around advice without regard to the person asking it.

IMO you're not doing anybody any favors by making it seem that gear is a casual undertaking. Obviously 90%+ of people who juice run into no trouble whatsoever, but to me the whole point of gear IMHO is to attain what is otherwise unattainable (or perhaps speed things along once a high threshold has been reached). And of course people have a right to do as they please concerning their own bodies. But still, what good are these forums if they're not a source of prudent advice to those who are new to training/gear?

And jsut to be clear, I'm certainly not stating that the steroid board here is garbage and that it totally lacks solid contributors - I'm just saying that the trend toward seeing 'quick-fix' juicing as a viable, legitimate use is disturbing to me.