I was cruising the anabolic board today...

[BiggT]

It was a SLOW day at work today, so I spent entirely too much time on the internet.

I was serfing through a lot of posts on the anabolic board and I noticed something pretty disturbing. The vast majority of guys on there are probably between 5'7 and 6'2 and weigh no more than 200lbs, maybe 210 or so for the guys on the taller end. They aren't professional athletes, but normal guys, college students, family men with careers, a lot of times very successful careers, and none of them really have out of this world goals. Maybe a guy 5'11 would like to weigh 220lbs with decent bodyfat. Nobody seems to have goals that are unattainable or unrealistic.

What I see is a complete (it almost looks deliberate) disregard for anything training-related. What I do see is a total waste of money on supplements and what I think of as a frightening imbalance where there is zero knowledge on proper training and eating ENOUGH, but chemist-level knowledge of drugs and ancillaries and nutritionist-level knowledge of the breakdown of various foods.

My point is that all of this SHOULD be so simple. If all you want is some more muscle and better body-composition and training is a serious hobby and not what you do for a living to support yourself/your family, all of your goals can be accomplished and surpassed with a solid knowledge of training theory and grasping the simple concept of calories in vs. calories out. Instead of researching exotic anabolic compounds and making your local GNC a fortune, you'd be better off reading Madcow's website and getting a big grocery order.

I have no problem with steroids, so don't get me wrong, but even steroids shouldn't be as complicated as they are made out. And in terms of most people's goals, they are totally unnecessary. Even the guys with more extreme goals can reach them with say 200-400mg of test a week, 200mg Deca......

Anyway, there was no point to this, just a semi-rant I guess. I understand that somebody aspiring to stand on a Mr. Olympia stage needs to do what they need to do.......I understand some people want to push their potential (I have fallen in here a lot of times)..but for the other, vast majority of the guys who lift to maybe be 6'1 and 220lbs with 11% bodyfat and respectable gym lifts, there is a much easier way to go about this.

 

[eat big]

I'm amazed at how much stronger and bigger I am at 19 than some people who have cycled.

 

[swaptrex]

i think it is rediculous when teens/young adults take them just for the hell of it. i am 19 and don't plan on competing so would never consider taking them at this point in my life. and if i did ever take them my diet would be very clean and i would do a mind blowing routine.

 

[Cynical Simian]

Never been over to the anabolic board, but I couldn't agree more. Very well said. The part that really amazes me is how few people understand the calories part and think that hypertrophy is something that just magically or randomly happens.

 

[asdfzxcv]

Very good post,I totally agree with you on all your points.I think it is due to the impatience of most people when they stall after the ''newbie'' period.They put too much emphasis on the clean eating with minimal focus on eating ENOUGH food and training hard with the compound lifts.Wondering why they stalled with ''perfect diet and training '' they then turn to anabolics in order to grow again but soon end up in the same situation as before and need more drugs to grow.

I personally dont use steriods and probably never will,but I have no problem with others using them as long as they have a solid foundation and have reached the zenith of their natural growth.By that I mean 5+years of solid training and eating,not 6months of useless isolation bullshit exercises on a shitty training split with minimal food.

 

[DZLS]

if you need gear to get to a goal of 220lbs you're probably just looking for a quick fix...

problem is they aren't a "quick fix", and most times people fail to see that...

i've never done them, never will, but have been accused of it in the past... i took it a compliment though...

 

[BiggT]

I'm glad this post came across the right way. Again, I have no problem with steroids, and I am not denying having used them at times myself. My point is that people with very realistic goals who don't aspire to max their Earthly potential and just want more muscle and better bf% can get there and beyond if they spent their time reading Starr and Zatsiorsky as opposed to Duchaine and Weider......and any healthy male around 6' tall who doesn't even weigh 200lbs and does not compete in a sport on an international level has no business considering steroid use.

 

[Introspective]

When i put on about 45 lbs in around 10 weeks i had stretch marks on my arms, still got them, my doctor asked me if i was using roids lol i have never used roids and can't see myself using them.

 

[BiggT]

When i put on about 45 lbs in around 10 weeks i had stretch marks on my arms, still got them, my doctor asked me if i was using roids lol

That's what I call a compliment, lol

 

[Madcow2]

Nobody seems to have goals that are unattainable or unrealistic.

What I see is a complete (it almost looks deliberate) disregard for anything training-related. What I do see is a total waste of money on supplements and what I think of as a frightening imbalance where there is zero knowledge on proper training and eating ENOUGH, but chemist-level knowledge of drugs and ancillaries and nutritionist-level knowledge of the breakdown of various foods.

My point is that all of this SHOULD be so simple. If all you want is some more muscle and better body-composition and training is a serious hobby and not what you do for a living to support yourself/your family, all of your goals can be accomplished and surpassed with a solid knowledge of training theory and grasping the simple concept of calories in vs. calories out.

Actually this was the crux that gave me the idea to put in some effort in this area. Good people are out there trying to improve themselves. They are not lacking the willingness to spend time or effort (or money) but mainly the knowledge. At some point they got frustrated and decided to use juice (and most intend for just that single 1 time cycle to get them where they want). That's basically the only way a lot of people make gains and feel like they are having success in their endevour that they put so much of themselves into.

I don't so much care whether people do it or not but mainly I care that so many seem to go that route because they don't have a clue about proper training and think a perfect diet is about managing intake down to the trace mineral rather than making sure they eat enough to move the scale. It's focusing on the 1% items when the two big 45% blocks are basically voodoo to them. Most would not have to go that route if there was even basic training info available - and yet sadly that's not the case.

And then we come full circle to my effort at this board and a few others as well as other people who gave a shit and decided to help out. None of the stuff I write is rocket science or much beyond common sense. Hell, I think I told someone the other day that he'd be better off forgetting everything he thought he knew and starting over because his body of knowledge was so horrendous that it required a complete education to fix it anyway.

It's a shame that so many people can't get decent enough results when it should be fairly rudimentary for most of them. But I see it as a sort of perpetual motion machine being put into momentum. Even though a program like 5x5 flies right in the face of what most people usually do these days, it works really well and gives them results that they likely haven't experienced. No one is hating that program after using it and it's generally overwhelmingly positive. More to the point, they realize that it is so right but so wrong from their previous frame of reference - which most then choose to expand and taking an interest in learning and getting at least the basics in training theory down which was the original goal although some nit whits will go with the 'golden program' alternative and all praise be to me or Starr or Glenn or whoever else brought it to them. Anyway, the first step is making it available to see and understand, some will try, those who are not stupid will succeed, a good portion will learn and want to know why, and then they will share that with others who ask about their results and with others who haven't yet asked but are looking for information. Little by little critical mass is built until Joe Shmoe decides to start training and runs a search and comes accross good info rather quickly rather than spending 3 years going nowhere with no idea why and then saying screw it and jumping on drugs. It basically comes down to good training versus shit and in the information age, you can't peddle shit too long even in bodybuilding where it's been done for 30 years, the amount of ignorance in the population and in the media/newsstand is overwhelming and one can circumvent the system with fairly guaranteed success by spending money on enough anabolics and food to get decent results from even the shittiest of programs.

I will say the best PM I ever had was from a young guy who was just starting out and bought himself a home setup. He PM'd me to ask about exercise substitution - which is generally the kiss of death. He goes on to say how he spent all his money on a power rack and olympic set and didn't have the cash on hand to get the bench yet. He figured that he'd be able to squat, pull from the floor, row, and chin and still have military and push presses for overhead until he could afford a bench. And this guy was from the US too which is even more stunning. The guy had never posted here before but he had been reading the stuff I was writing and took some time to check on it - basically finding I wasn't crazy and this was very basic common stuff although stark contrast to Muscle and Fitness and what most do at commerical fitness centers. I was so impressed with the guy. Made me real happy to save someone the entire learning curve for a change rather than try to fix all the bad info that's been accumulated.

 

[asdfzxcv]

I will say the best PM I ever had was from a young guy who was just starting out and bought himself a home setup. He PM'd me to ask about exercise substitution - which is generally the kiss of death. He goes on to say how he spent all his money on a power rack and olympic set and didn't have the cash on hand to get the bench yet. He figured that he'd be able to squat, pull from the floor, row, and chin and still have military and push presses for overhead until he could afford a bench. And this guy was from the US too which is even more stunning. The guy had never posted here before but he had been reading the stuff I was writing and took some time to check on it - basically finding I wasn't crazy and this was very basic common stuff although stark contrast to Muscle and Fitness and what most do at commerical fitness centers. I was so impressed with the guy. Made me real happy to save someone the entire learning curve for a change rather than try to fix all the bad info that's been accumulated.

That was me a few months ago when I first started lifting at home.I must say things are going well due to the efforts of people like you who dedicate their time to spreading useful info on the net.Keep up the good work madcow2,you are really making a difference for lots of people out there.

 

[BiggT]

Great stuff Madcow.

 

[Ozz2001]

It was a SLOW day at work today, so I spent entirely too much time on the internet.

I was serfing through a lot of posts on the anabolic board and I noticed something pretty disturbing. The vast majority of guys on there are probably between 5'7 and 6'2 and weigh no more than 200lbs, maybe 210 or so for the guys on the taller end. They aren't professional athletes, but normal guys, college students, family men with careers, a lot of times very successful careers, and none of them really have out of this world goals. Maybe a guy 5'11 would like to weigh 220lbs with decent bodyfat. Nobody seems to have goals that are unattainable or unrealistic.

What I see is a complete (it almost looks deliberate) disregard for anything training-related. What I do see is a total waste of money on supplements and what I think of as a frightening imbalance where there is zero knowledge on proper training and eating ENOUGH, but chemist-level knowledge of drugs and ancillaries and nutritionist-level knowledge of the breakdown of various foods.

My point is that all of this SHOULD be so simple. If all you want is some more muscle and better body-composition and training is a serious hobby and not what you do for a living to support yourself/your family, all of your goals can be accomplished and surpassed with a solid knowledge of training theory and grasping the simple concept of calories in vs. calories out. Instead of researching exotic anabolic compounds and making your local GNC a fortune, you'd be better off reading Madcow's website and getting a big grocery order.

I have no problem with steroids, so don't get me wrong, but even steroids shouldn't be as complicated as they are made out. And in terms of most people's goals, they are totally unnecessary. Even the guys with more extreme goals can reach them with say 200-400mg of test a week, 200mg Deca......

Anyway, there was no point to this, just a semi-rant I guess. I understand that somebody aspiring to stand on a Mr. Olympia stage needs to do what they need to do.......I understand some people want to push their potential (I have fallen in here a lot of times)..but for the other, vast majority of the guys who lift to maybe be 6'1 and 220lbs with 11% bodyfat and respectable gym lifts, there is a much easier way to go about this.

Some of what you say is true,theres some dum people living on a dream...
At 40 and the way i look you can single me out of the line up period.As for mad 5x5 why would i need it? If you dont know how to workout you shouldnt be lifting period. People dont need a program...The program is the one you make from learning how and what it takes to make your body grow! Everyones different you can just say everone run this program and you will reach your goals because then your just bullshitting everyone.I can post up 1000 of workout programs from pros to nobodys but they all have a meaning but doesnt mean there right for you! If stuck to a program i really dont think i would keep growing at all.I might mantain what i started with but thats about it....Key word..........Shock....

 

[Madcow2]

Some of what you say is true,theres some dum people living on a dream...
At 40 and the way i look you can single me out of the line up period.As for mad 5x5 why would i need it? If you dont know how to workout you shouldnt be lifting period. People dont need a program...The program is the one you make from learning how and what it takes to make your body grow! Everyones different you can just say everone run this program and you will reach your goals because then your just bullshitting everyone.I can post up 1000 of workout programs from pros to nobodys but they all have a meaning but doesnt mean there right for you! If stuck to a program i really dont think i would keep growing at all.I might mantain what i started with but thats about it....Key word..........Shock....

I don't think he was talking about any specific program, and certainly I don't think (and I know he feels the same way) the 5x5 example is anything more than a solid cookie cutter program but far better an excellent example for teaching. He's talking about training theory and understanding how to program for systematic progress (which when he said they should read my website - the massive bulk of it has nothing to do with 5x5 programs but is totally concerned with training theory and teaching). It's not rocket science by any means but there is a lot more to it than the knowledgebase commonly reflected in BBing which is just to go in and do some stuff. And diet is a big part of that with people getting lost in all kinds of micro bullshit and hamstringing themselves with 'not enough'.

Like I alluded to above and as I've said countless times before, the whole reason for using the 5x5 as an example is because it is very simple, intuitively easy to see the parts moving, and illustrates the use of managing workload (obviously frequency and the compulsive need for huge amounts of isolation exercises fit in there too). There was a reason why I chose to use it and it's not about a 'golden program' which is the absolute worst thing to take away from it and totally counter to the entire point (which I specifically said above), it's about understanding basic training theory and being able to construct a methodology to reliably support systematic progress. And to the point, the people who are behind it certainly never held it constant and were always tailoring programing to specific individuals at specific points in time - those templates are more static snapshots that are setup to work fairly well for the general populace. That's the key right there, doesn't really matter how one schemes it as long as they can quantify progress and understand how to manage the variables properly. This is why the major bulk of my website is related to training theory and increasing this knowledge where only a small fraction has much to do with specific programs.

So no one pitches the 'golden program' theory here despite the fact that it has obviously been very successful. Most of the people who have run it successfully rarely run it more than twice in stock form. Hell, I can count maybe 10 weeks in my entire life that my own training looked exactly like that program. Most times it looked vastly different (although obviously the principles were the same but that's any good program). It's about understanding programing and how to manage it. Not about one best program or any static program being even remotely optimal for any person. People who come away with that, haven't spent time reading what it is I and others have been saying.

 

[BiggT]

Madcow said everything I was going to, and probably worded it better too.

The point of my post wasn't "All people not doing the traditional 5x5 program are morons" lol....it was that a basic grasp of training theory and the concept of calories in vs calories out will get most people to acheive reasonable goals. Most people want noticeable muscle and better body composition, you don't need anabolics to acheive that. Those 5x5 setups are probably the easiest example to use to teach people training theory, the goal isn't to have a bunch of mindless people doing "5x5" because they read it somewhere, the goal is to have a bunch of people who understand the principals behind the routine and who can apply them and program them and be able to think for themselves. Going to the gym to run through a list of exercises for a 'bodypart' and just blindly trying to get sore is not training

What I was getting at in the original post is that it is shocking to me the amount of 5' 10" 180lb guys who are 'plateaued ' and who are concerned that progress has stopped on week 12 of their Test/D-Bol/Fina/Winny cycle because their bench is "stuck" at 250lbs and want to know is they should add in insulin and gh with their PCT ....these aren't people with unrealistic goals and they aren't people with unattainable goals, these guys should be able to progress naturally for a long, long time. They are people, who with a little bit of knowledge in the areas of training and caloric surplus, could realize their goals and more without wasting money on supplements, magazines, and going through the trouble of steroids. Basically, if you do not know how to make any kind of training progress without drugs, then you have no business taking them.

 

[Illuminati]

It was a SLOW day at work today, so I spent entirely too much time on the internet.

I was serfing through a lot of posts on the anabolic board and I noticed something pretty disturbing. The vast majority of guys on there are probably between 5'7 and 6'2 and weigh no more than 200lbs, maybe 210 or so for the guys on the taller end. They aren't professional athletes, but normal guys, college students, family men with careers, a lot of times very successful careers, and none of them really have out of this world goals. Maybe a guy 5'11 would like to weigh 220lbs with decent bodyfat. Nobody seems to have goals that are unattainable or unrealistic.

What I see is a complete (it almost looks deliberate) disregard for anything training-related. What I do see is a total waste of money on supplements and what I think of as a frightening imbalance where there is zero knowledge on proper training and eating ENOUGH, but chemist-level knowledge of drugs and ancillaries and nutritionist-level knowledge of the breakdown of various foods.

My point is that all of this SHOULD be so simple. If all you want is some more muscle and better body-composition and training is a serious hobby and not what you do for a living to support yourself/your family, all of your goals can be accomplished and surpassed with a solid knowledge of training theory and grasping the simple concept of calories in vs. calories out. Instead of researching exotic anabolic compounds and making your local GNC a fortune, you'd be better off reading Madcow's website and getting a big grocery order.

I have no problem with steroids, so don't get me wrong, but even steroids shouldn't be as complicated as they are made out. And in terms of most people's goals, they are totally unnecessary. Even the guys with more extreme goals can reach them with say 200-400mg of test a week, 200mg Deca......

Anyway, there was no point to this, just a semi-rant I guess. I understand that somebody aspiring to stand on a Mr. Olympia stage needs to do what they need to do.......I understand some people want to push their potential (I have fallen in here a lot of times)..but for the other, vast majority of the guys who lift to maybe be 6'1 and 220lbs with 11% bodyfat and respectable gym lifts, there is a much easier way to go about this.

bro. I have been thinking the same thing for a while now. there is so much mis-information that is given over on that board. Granted, you won't see much about training, because its the anabolics board. That is why you dont see it there. But, you are right. Them majority of the people on there, don't know a thing about training. And it is very evident, because anytime that anyone says "I'm planning on doing...blah,blah, blah" someone jumps in and says "you need to up that another 200mgs per week, and x amount of this, and extend it another 4 weeks." And then everybody on that board jumps in, and agrees, cause they want to look like they know what they are talking about. If these people knew a thing or two about training and dieting, they wouldn't have to use the massive amounts of steroids that they claim they do. If they spent as much time in the gym as they do researching steroids, they would be amazed at their results.
Someone said that they are amazed that they are 19, and bigger and stronger than most on that boards. This really is no surprise. I think the real surprise would be the number of people on that board that have actually used them.
Ok, that is my addative to this rant and rave. Dont think I'm completely ripping on that board. Cause I'm not. There are some people over there that are knowledgeable. But very few.

 

[Tweakle]

Even the guys with more extreme goals can reach them with say 200-400mg of test a week, 200mg Deca.

you forget Genetics. For hardgainers and low responsers those doses simply don't do anything after you get to 50lbs over your natural max, trust me I speak from experience...

But yes, I roll my eyes at some of the tiny men on there bragging about all the lean quality mass they put on everytime they cycle, the primo and tbol kiddies are the best... 5+ cycles and still weighing a mighty 160, maybe time to find another hobby.

I run a LOT of gear, I have to as I get maybe 1/4 the results from it that other guys would from the same dose. 1g a week 52 weeks a year is essential to keep me over 245 and lean..

 

[BiggT]

you forget Genetics. For hardgainers and low responsers those doses simply don't do anything after you get to 50lbs over your natural max, trust me I speak from experience...

But yes, I roll my eyes at some of the tiny men on there bragging about all the lean quality mass they put on everytime they cycle, the primo and tbol kiddies are the best... 5+ cycles and still weighing a mighty 160, maybe time to find another hobby.

I run a LOT of gear, I have to as I get maybe 1/4 the results from it that other guys would from the same dose. 1g a week 52 weeks a year is essential to keep me over 245 and lean..

I agree, but I sure as hell hope you know I wasn't referring to guys like you, lol.....a lean 245 with a 700 deadlift is not the same as a guy 180 who dreams of one day doing rep work on the bench with 225.....most guys don't even aspire to weigh 245 lean, I was just saying the "LL Cool J look" and the "Brad Pitt Pecs" that 99% of those guys aspire to are MORE than attainable naturally.

 

[Tweakle]

Good to know bro, I dont want to be classed with the Spring Break crew or the Primo Pushers You know, 200-220 & ripped is awesome if someone is 5'10" given the right stucture... but in internet fairy land 'lean' usually means under 18% bf

 

[Guinness5.0]

Good topic. I seem to remember when I first started getting interested in gear that the vets of the board I frequented at the time were very good about making the new guys post their stats before they'd help 'em, telling people to wait to juice til they've come a little further natty, advising them to run a lower dose than the 500 test/400 deca cycels that newbs always proposed, etc. Now it seems like everybody's so eager to show they're 'gear savvy' that they just throw around advice without regard to the person asking it.

IMO you're not doing anybody any favors by making it seem that gear is a casual undertaking. Obviously 90%+ of people who juice run into no trouble whatsoever, but to me the whole point of gear IMHO is to attain what is otherwise unattainable (or perhaps speed things along once a high threshold has been reached). And of course people have a right to do as they please concerning their own bodies. But still, what good are these forums if they're not a source of prudent advice to those who are new to training/gear?

And jsut to be clear, I'm certainly not stating that the steroid board here is garbage and that it totally lacks solid contributors - I'm just saying that the trend toward seeing 'quick-fix' juicing as a viable, legitimate use is disturbing to me.

 

[silver_shadow]

wow great thread. i used to be one of those little guys on the anabolic board when all i was concerned about then was getting from 130lbs (ya i know i was a skinny bastard) to around 170 at first - so i could become a model! then as i saw good gains on test only cycles, threw away my modelling ambitions to get to 220. back then i spent all my time on that board and knew little about training, whatever i knew was the usual "BB split" and i tried to find those magical exercises which would make my pecs and arms grow. there was this one guy over there, a well known bro who if i remember correctly became a mod and would throw his weight around if someone openly opposed his cycling principles. i'm not too sure what happened but i don't think he's a mod anymore. anyway, this guy would use some insane amounts of gear (comprising all manner of exotic compounds) with one sole purpose - to be 180 @ 4%bf. there are still some really good bro's out there who do know their stuff though most of them are like i used to be. nowadays, since i've discovered that there is a wealth of info on this board, i spend most of my time here. earlier it used to be next to impossible for me to gain natty. now i can gain pretty quickly and i no longer think of myself as a hardgainer. i've also long thrown away my 1x wk split LOL.

 

[Madcow2]

It's an odd thing. BBing is convinced that success is 90% diet. For big juice dosages and in the sense of not eating enough (caloric excess) - yeah, I mean if you aren't going to eat enough to put on any weight we can't really go anywhere besides pure strength. However, once the dumb threshhold is crossed and you are willing to eat enough (let's assume not an idiot), training is huge. This is the key that decides how much muscle you are going to put on. You still need a stimulus and hypertrophy is about improving capacity, if you aren't systematically improving capacity there is no reason to build or retain more muscle than you have now.

More to the point, holding genetics constant people will gain more muscle with better training and most importantly retain more muscle post cycle (i.e. you can get your PCT and hormonal profile back but if your training doesn't reflect the need to maintain current musculature - your body will shed the muscle - use it or lose it).

The other thing I constantly find odd is that people don't notice the implications to training theory that a cycle brings into the mix. The first thing they generally find is that they can lift more weight and do more volume (bingo - progressive resistance and workload). Then they find they can recover faster (badabing - increased periodic workload due to frequency). And they notice throughout the cycle that their strength levels increase and most are trying trying to add reps or weight consistently (whoa - progressive resistance and improvement in fundemental strength). This is not rocket science and the implications should be night and day obvious but for some reason people tend not to think about it. I mean, yes, even without strict resistance exercise steroids can and do induce muscular weight gain (i.e. farmers and cattle and even among some HRT patients). But really, adding some form of resistance exercise to the mix kicks it off huge and there are reasons for this and the training is obviously a critical component which one would think should be maximized in order to reap the best possible results off a given cycle.

 

[Illuminati]

I agree, but I sure as hell hope you know I wasn't referring to guys like you, lol.....a lean 245 with a 700 deadlift is not the same as a guy 180 who dreams of one day doing rep work on the bench with 225.....most guys don't even aspire to weigh 245 lean, I was just saying the "LL Cool J look" and the "Brad Pitt Pecs" that 99% of those guys aspire to are MORE than attainable naturally.

These are the people, the "how to do I look like brad pitt," or "I need to get cut for spring break" that I was referring to too. These people that don't realize that you have to train year round to achieve your goals. You simply can't train just 12 weeks out of the year, so that you can look good for spring break. Working out and training should be a life time thing, and one that you enjoy every week, month after month, year after year. So many of people are in such a rush to get huge, that they throw the fundamentals of training out the door, and immediately jump on a cycle, because they dont want to put in the blood sweat and tears into training.

 

[Madcow2]

So many of people are in such a rush to get huge, that they throw the fundamentals of training out the door, and immediately jump on a cycle, because they dont want to put in the blood sweat and tears into training.

I'm not 100% convinced it's simply the shortcut or lack of dedication thing - although they certainly are common enough. For a good portion of recreational guys it seems to be mainly a lack of understanding the fundementals and how to go about it. There will always be people who don't want to put in the work, but a lot of guys are busting their ass and just don't seem to understand what needs to be done outside of going in and doing some stuff and hoping to grow from it.

 

[psychedout]

you forget Genetics. For hardgainers and low responsers those doses simply don't do anything after you get to 50lbs over your natural max, trust me I speak from experience...

But yes, I roll my eyes at some of the tiny men on there bragging about all the lean quality mass they put on everytime they cycle, the primo and tbol kiddies are the best... 5+ cycles and still weighing a mighty 160, maybe time to find another hobby.

I run a LOT of gear, I have to as I get maybe 1/4 the results from it that other guys would from the same dose. 1g a week 52 weeks a year is essential to keep me over 245 and lean..

Props to this statement. I train properly, eat 5000 calories per day, and I don't gain very much without them. I was blessed with very poor genetics.

Plus you have to factor in the pressure society places on youth to look good. Thats why I turned to steroids at the mighty age of 18. I had low self-esteem and low self-confidence. It was a battle between me and the pressures that society places on youth today. Not everyone gets affected to the extent that I do, but i'm that guy. The guy who felt that he had no choice but to do it. Turning to steroids has had good things and bad things. On the good side, my self esteem and confidence issues have entirely disappeared. On the flip side, you might say that steroids are my crutch then. On the good side, I knew if I was using, I better learn how to train the best, eat the best, and get into the best mindset. Maybe my cause and effect are backwards and it shouldn't be like that, but the bottom line is that it was. I can't go back in time and change anything. I wish I dealt with my issues surrounding cofidence, ego, self-esteem, depression, etc, through an acceptable facet (as I do nowadays), but whats done is done. I think its a rather condenscending viewpoint to look down at people who use steroids. Usually there is a deeper issue involved. Thats my 2 cents.

 

[Madcow2]

I think its a rather condenscending viewpoint to look down at people who use steroids. Usually there is a deeper issue involved. Thats my 2 cents.

You do realize that no one is doing that (maybe you were just adding a thought or different point) and the original post is essentially a commentary about how bad the general knowledge of basic training theory is in BBing. The idea put forth is that this and the resulting poor success rate of people's efforts is what leads a lot of these guys to drugs when in reality most times their goals are very achievable (they just don't know how to go about making consistent progress yet everyone believes themselves fairly competent since very few others know more).

 

[psychedout]

You do realize that no one is doing that (maybe you were just adding a thought or different point) and the original post is essentially a commentary about how bad the general knowledge of basic training theory is in BBing. The idea put forth is that this and the resulting poor success rate of people's efforts is what leads a lot of these guys to drugs when in reality most times their goals are very achievable (they just don't know how to go about making consistent progress yet everyone believes themselves fairly competent since very few others know more).

I guess I did go off on a bit of a tangent. Blah, its one of those days though. I am frustrated as hell with the administration at the University I attend. As it turns out they have schedule 3 (yes 3) final exams all during the same time frame and I am all worked up. I still got that impression somewhere along the line though. Maybe its a stretch, but one that I made nonetheless. I will agree that general knowledge about training is quite poor. I think the biggest issue has to do with frequency. Most bber's would agree that compound lifts are what you need to do. And I think most people could accomplish their goals on a single-factor routine, if everything else is in place. Hell, I would even consider my knowledge to only be adequate. I know the basics but not much behind them. I know to train the core lifts 2-3x per week, I know to not to workout more than 3-4 days a week, I know that failure and the pump aren't essential for a good workout or muscle growth, I know that adding pounds to the bar each week is what drives gains, I know periodized training is what you need if you want to get a total paltry up past 1400ish... Eh, maybe I know a bit more than I thought.

 

[swordfish151]

It was a SLOW day at work today, so I spent entirely too much time on the internet.

I was serfing through a lot of posts on the anabolic board and I noticed something pretty disturbing. The vast majority of guys on there are probably between 5'7 and 6'2 and weigh no more than 200lbs, maybe 210 or so for the guys on the taller end. They aren't professional athletes, but normal guys, college students, family men with careers, a lot of times very successful careers, and none of them really have out of this world goals. Maybe a guy 5'11 would like to weigh 220lbs with decent bodyfat. Nobody seems to have goals that are unattainable or unrealistic.

What I see is a complete (it almost looks deliberate) disregard for anything training-related. What I do see is a total waste of money on supplements and what I think of as a frightening imbalance where there is zero knowledge on proper training and eating ENOUGH, but chemist-level knowledge of drugs and ancillaries and nutritionist-level knowledge of the breakdown of various foods.

My point is that all of this SHOULD be so simple. If all you want is some more muscle and better body-composition and training is a serious hobby and not what you do for a living to support yourself/your family, all of your goals can be accomplished and surpassed with a solid knowledge of training theory and grasping the simple concept of calories in vs. calories out. Instead of researching exotic anabolic compounds and making your local GNC a fortune, you'd be better off reading Madcow's website and getting a big grocery order.

I have no problem with steroids, so don't get me wrong, but even steroids shouldn't be as complicated as they are made out. And in terms of most people's goals, they are totally unnecessary. Even the guys with more extreme goals can reach them with say 200-400mg of test a week, 200mg Deca......

Anyway, there was no point to this, just a semi-rant I guess. I understand that somebody aspiring to stand on a Mr. Olympia stage needs to do what they need to do.......I understand some people want to push their potential (I have fallen in here a lot of times)..but for the other, vast majority of the guys who lift to maybe be 6'1 and 220lbs with 11% bodyfat and respectable gym lifts, there is a much easier way to go about this.

I have to disagree here (ok ok start throwing the tomatoes) Anyway, its the ANABOLIC board...not the WEIGHT TRAINING BOARD. What is discussed there is ..ANABOLIC SUBSTANCES..not training, that is why we have this fine board here. That is why you dont see any talks about training, we would HOPE that a person would first understand the fundamentals of TRAINING AND DIET BEFORE even CONSIDERING the IDEA of AAS (again diet is not talked about there either..and a matter of fact...ITS NOT HERE EITHER) I dont think i have seen many 5X5 threads talking about diet or posting a diet split..so in fairness the wieght training board is geared towards...well weight training..that is why we have a diet board....I cant speak for all..but I do agree that there are those knuckleheads out there that want the "quick fix" Many of times you get guys that want to get huge, that they want to start a cycle but fail to understand that 3 meals a day is why they are not growing. That being said ...training is VERY VERY important....there are alot of us "juice heads" on ANABOLICS that understand this...and love it..i love to train, to lift, to eat and to understand better the dynamics of this...We just dont inject and hope the good ole AAS fairy will be so kind of slapping on some muscle...trust me there are alot of hardcore trainers over there...But i do agree that there are alot to just jump in and advice just to show "knowledge"....which is not the right way of going about things...but again i re-state that alot of the hardcore guys over in anabolic hope that the certain individual would understand or know how to lift (and have many years under his belt) before considering AAS...we dont always give out cycles like candy..beleive it or not..sometimes we shun individuals from it and let them know that all they need to know is how to EAT/TRAIN.

 

[Tweakle]

we would HOPE that a person would first understand the fundamentals of TRAINING AND DIET BEFORE even CONSIDERING the IDEA of AAS

That would be nice, but it's not true.. If people were forced to tell the truth on net polls and someone posts a how much can you lift/ what is your bf%/ how long have you been training poll on that forum it would be truely pathetic on average.

I recall a certain 'celeb' member bragging about hitting a 315 bench after 2 years of heavy juicing AND GH.. great, now you can hang with the high school football team.

And diet, well yes there should be some on the AAS board for the fat fucks asking 'how much winny do I need to get ripped' over and over again.

 

[psychedout]

That would be nice, but it's not true.. If people were forced to tell the truth on net polls and someone posts a how much can you lift/ what is your bf%/ how long have you been training poll on that forum it would be truely pathetic on average.

I recall a certain 'celeb' member bragging about hitting a 315 bench after 2 years of heavy juicing AND GH.. great, now you can hang with the high school football team.

And diet, well yes there should be some on the AAS board for the fat fucks asking 'how much winny do I need to get ripped' over and over again.

Cough *satch* cough.

 

[swordfish151]

That would be nice, but it's not true.. If people were forced to tell the truth on net polls and someone posts a how much can you lift/ what is your bf%/ how long have you been training poll on that forum it would be truely pathetic on average.

I recall a certain 'celeb' member bragging about hitting a 315 bench after 2 years of heavy juicing AND GH.. great, now you can hang with the high school football team.

And diet, well yes there should be some on the AAS board for the fat fucks asking 'how much winny do I need to get ripped' over and over again.

Same holds true for the weight training board...IF people were honest then alot of the "gains" here would be pathetic as well...but we hang in an environment where you must take everything with a grain of salt. Either way my point is that Anabolics is not all about just injecting, falling asleep and BEHOLD new muscle.....Bodybuilding, powerlifting is ALL about training...period and eating of course....not just injections...we understand that...

 

[Madcow2]

That would be nice, but it's not true.. If people were forced to tell the truth on net polls and someone posts a how much can you lift/ what is your bf%/ how long have you been training poll on that forum it would be truely pathetic on average.

That's because you can't actually drink winny.

I remember back in 2001ish where the generic first cycle being recommended was 30-35mg of dbol ED for weeks 1-4, and 500mg of test and 600mg of equipoise for weeks 1-10. I think it's gotten a bit better from back then (I don't see how it could get much worse) but I was just staggered to see what people thought was required to grow. And this was for the newbie kids at 6'1 180lbs "plateaued after a year with perfect training and diet". Actually I know a number of people who carried a ton of muscle and did some fairly impressive things who never once took that much. To think of that as a good starting point was ludicrous.

 

[Guinness5.0]

Same holds true for the weight training board...IF people were honest then alot of the "gains" here would be pathetic as well...but we hang in an environment where you must take everything with a grain of salt. Either way my point is that Anabolics is not all about just injecting, falling asleep and BEHOLD new muscle.....Bodybuilding, powerlifting is ALL about training...period and eating of course....not just injections...we understand that...

I think it's very safe to say that someone who knows what they're doing would be pretty disappointed by a read through the anabolic board on aby given day. When training is mentioned, it's nearly without exception garbage.

And are you saying that the people who post their progress in the training board are lying? There are lots of journals here and I highhly doubt that anyone is making shit up - nothing too outlandish has been claimed (without some form of evidence) that I've seen.

 

[swordfish151]

That's because you can't actually drink winny.

I remember back in 2001ish where the generic first cycle being recommended was 30-35mg of dbol ED for weeks 1-4, and 500mg of test and 600mg of equipoise for weeks 1-10. I think it's gotten a bit better from back then (I don't see how it could get much worse) but I was just staggered to see what people thought was required to grow. And this was for the newbie kids at 6'1 180lbs "plateaued after a year with perfect training and diet". Actually I know a number of people who carried a ton of muscle and did some fairly impressive things who never once took that much. To think of that as a good starting point was ludicrous.

I agree, Im a HUGE believer in low doses..and if it aint broke dont fix it...A while back I started a thread asking why most up the dosage? If you made gains at 250-500 what made you up it to 1G? Impatients? I was trying to understand if it was because "they grew accustomed to the dose thus had to bump it or else nothing would happen" well i didnt get much responses...maybe it was cause "everyone else did it".

 

[swordfish151]

I think it's very safe to say that someone who knows what they're doing would be pretty disappointed by a read through the anabolic board on aby given day. When training is mentioned, it's nearly without exception garbage.

And are you saying that the people who post their progress in the training board are lying? There are lots of journals here and I highhly doubt that anyone is making shit up - nothing too outlandish has been claimed (without some form of evidence) that I've seen.

Why garbage? Cause no one is doing the 5X5? I dont think so...look at Quadsweep, Machine, Galaxy , Makaveli...These guys KNOW there stuff and training..get have not done the 5X5...I am not knocking the program at all...I have done it, love it and will run it again...but your talking about your "new years" "spring breakers" the smaller group that makes up the majority of the board that really dont care about training or learning about it or dieting just "juicing up and blowing up"..but you have alot of VETS with alot of knowledge and understanding about training....Im not saying anyone is lying about what they are doing or posting in the Weight Training forum..frankly i dont really care if they are or not...the harm isnt done to me..but to the person that is lying about benching 400lbs when they can barly push 225lbs....All im saying is that their are 2 sides to that coin no matter what forum your in...but this is the internet...like i said take it with a grain of salt..

 

[Guinness5.0]

It has nothing to do with 5x5. I'm talking about people who are still obsessed with pumps and soreness, who think you can target your 'inner chest', who think anything more than 1x/week frequency is overtraining, who are still supplement focused, etc.

I kinda get the impression that you think we're slamming anyone who posts there - I think all we've said (sorry to speak for others BTW) is that WAY too many people don't know day-one fundamental stuff about training (as madcow likes to say, micromanaging the details while not giving heed to the big stuff) and are already taking large doses. It doesn't affect me any, but it's a shame. This is more or less a rant thread and we're ranting a bit, albeit respectfully IMO.

 

[Madcow2]

The main thing is that most people who start threads on the anabolic board don't know what they are doing. You don't see Quadsweep or any of the others asking questions - just providing answers. So I really don't think that this thread insinuated in any way or could be taken to be saying that no one who posts there or uses steroids knows what they are doing (or that if you aren't using 5x5 your an idiot as someone earlier concluded). The point was that a lot of the threads there seem to be people turning to drugs and newer users who are stalled and really don't have very low level foundation building block knowledge about how to go about getting bigger and stronger yet they are jumping on juice and obcessing over perfect dosage patterns and trace mineral intake.

Shit, I think I had maybe 1000 posts on the anabolic board with my old account. I don't think I ever started a thread and mainly just tried to help people and lend some rationality back in the day. Most would say that I have a decent grasp of training fundementals. I also understand a fair amount about anabolics and enough about nutrition.

So yes, biggt is making a point about the anabolic board but not critisizing the members as a whole and I think people that come to that conclusion are not reading carefully and jumping to defend the board or themselves without getting a good hold on his point. This isn't about knowledgable contributing members, this was an impression gleaned from the threads and really, look at them - most of those people generally do not need to be using drugs and wouldn't feel they had to if decent info on training was available and they grasped the basics of eating enough rather than managing trace minerals and wondering why their weight stays the same.

It's not that the board doesn't help people - they are going to use anyway so they might as well get some info first - or doesn't serve an excellent and at times noble purpose, it's that drugs have become so prevalent and so available that every skinny string bean kid who doesn't know a thing about lifting can get them. That wasn't the way it was before the internet. It was sort of a self-regulating thing as few gym dealers would put themselves out there in front of obvious pure novices who had just started training 8 months before (although certainly some would but in general the casual gym dealer sought out obviously knowledgable trainees rather than risk some kids parents or bother with some doofus).

It's totally different these days for better and for worse, info is far far far more available and of much higher quality. Hell it was freaking Duchaine that said that Finajet/Tren Acetate was ultra-toxic and begged people to use Parabolan instead - this was The Man and how ignorant was that to think that an ester totally changed the toxitity and total profile of the base molecule, he got that out of some farm issue where they had problems with cattle and preached it with obviously fucking zero understanding (actually, until fairly recently the ramifications of this were still very common as people were worried about tren toxitity from all the old finajet bullshit mostly from Duchaine). So on one side, info is far better and people are less likely to do stupid shit or get hurt. On the other side, anyone can get on the internet and get the drugs and that's not a good thing because that means that even though people have better info, more morons will be able to obtain the drugs who would have never gotten close to someone before.

 

[BiggT]

Thanks Madcow and Guiness....you guys got my point to the T....anybody who took offense at my post I think just read it too quickly (or not completely). I was not referring to guys who compete or who have somewhat elitist goals.....the majority of the population doesn't want to weigh 250 with 6% bodyfat.....they'd be happy at 200lbs with some noticeable muscle.....I just personally find it sickening that guys who weigh a buck seventy at 5'11 are 'plateaued' and cannot make training progress without drugs and fancy designer compounds and cocktails.......Even people with some goals that reach further than that can reach them through training....if a 22 year old kid who weighs 180lbs is stuck at 225x1 on the bench press, then his answer isn't drugs to get him to a whole whopping 265, it is to restructure his training towards gradual progression and to set some short-term goals.

People who ONLY know how to make ANY progress by using drugs don't know how to train. They may work hard, nobody is saying they don't.....but just blindly murdering a bodypart with everything and the kitchen sink does not foster long-term training progress, and these people think training doesn't really work and that anybody with any amount of muscle on their body got there through drugs.....Hence posts like "What kind of juice does Vin Diesel use?"..and "After 13 weeks of primo/winny/d-bol/deca/test/eq/fina/sten/anadrol/slin my bench is stuck at 245x2, should I add GH??"...

I wasn't referring to guys with extreme or elitist goals.....and in no way was I trying to take a shot at the knowledgable guys over there.

 

[Madcow2]

LOL - you knew when you posted this. And to be honest, I'd bet money that taking the time to explain yourself so as not to offend anyone worked against you. The length of the post made people skim/not read/jump to conclusions - which seemed very evident in the earlier 'if you don't do 5x5 as written you are dumb' interpretation.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

Don't bother trying to avoid offending people. Everyone is coddled these days, and it's fucking ridiculous. If someone can't accept a smack in the face every once in a while, then tough shit.

Beat your fucking kids, too.

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=beat

 

[silver_shadow]

It's not that the board doesn't help people - they are going to use anyway so they might as well get some info first - or doesn't serve an excellent and at times noble purpose, it's that drugs have become so prevalent and so available that every skinny string bean kid who doesn't know a thing about lifting can get them. That wasn't the way it was before the internet. It was sort of a self-regulating thing as few gym dealers would put themselves out there in front of obvious pure novices who had just started training 8 months before (although certainly some would but in general the casual gym dealer sought out obviously knowledgable trainees rather than risk some kids parents or bother with some doofus).

actually a few yrs ago when i was first on those boards, yes, there were a lot of knuckleheads too but in general the vets would make an effort to ensure that 16yr olds weren't going to get on the sauce. i remember 1 such incident when a 16 yo kept starting different threads sort of trying to get approval. alot of bros actually helped him by pointing him in the right direction - diet/training and ensured that the kid never juiced. there musta been many more such incidents but i dont remember them. i don't see some of those vets post as much nowadays. i feel that the anabolic board has degraded a bit (JMO).
and i still cannot get over the *star* member (who was also mod for some time) who was around 25, advocated some insane usage of AAS, was arrogant as hell and who would tick anyone of when they called BS on him (and trust me there was alot of BS)

 

[Madcow2]

actually a few yrs ago when i was first on those boards, yes, there were a lot of knuckleheads too but in general the vets would make an effort to ensure that 16yr olds weren't going to get on the sauce. i remember 1 such incident when a 16 yo kept starting different threads sort of trying to get approval. alot of bros actually helped him by pointing him in the right direction - diet/training and ensured that the kid never juiced. there musta been many more such incidents but i dont remember them. i don't see some of those vets post as much nowadays. i feel that the anabolic board has degraded a bit (JMO).
and i still cannot get over the *star* member (who was also mod for some time) who was around 25, advocated some insane usage of AAS, was arrogant as hell and who would tick anyone of when they called BS on him (and trust me there was alot of BS)

One of the main things was that there weren't as many forums around the net as there are now. Elite's anabolic forum had a ton of traffic and actually around 2002ish I guess many boards sprung out from this very one. I think Triedia sort of started it at the time and then many others appeared from there and here. So you get a dilutive effect since, let's face it, steroids are not that complicated and certainly not much has changed over the years. Once you get the knowledgebase it's pretty damn boring just sitting around and saying the same thing to all the kids who post threads. Now take the people who are willing to do that and spread them over a lot of forums. So you get degrading quality. There are still some very sharp people here but I think the total number has declined and even # posts has dropped some. Plus now the search is platinum only so you get a lot more doofus questions from the non-paying members where the typical response was "did you run a search".

 

[silver_shadow]

One of the main things was that there weren't as many forums around the net as there are now. Elite's anabolic forum had a ton of traffic and actually around 2002ish I guess many boards sprung out from this very one. I think Triedia sort of started it at the time and then many others appeared from there and here. So you get a dilutive effect since, let's face it, steroids are not that complicated and certainly not much has changed over the years. Once you get the knowledgebase it's pretty damn boring just sitting around and saying the same thing to all the kids who post threads. Now take the people who are willing to do that and spread them over a lot of forums. So you get degrading quality. There are still some very sharp people here but I think the total number has declined and even # posts has dropped some. Plus now the search is platinum only so you get a lot more doofus questions from the non-paying members where the typical response was "did you run a search".

yep u hit the nail on the head. back then, there were some interesting topics debated and some good discussions... won't go into detail but it should suffice to say that things were a lot more interesting then. and i guess some of those sharp vets who are still around are probably fedup with answering the same questions again and again and you don't see them post as much anymore.

 

[swordfish151]

Morning gentlmen...I understand all your points..i was not trying to "bash" anyone in the weights board..i respect alot of you believe it or not and your ideas and philosophies when it comes to training (especially Madcow)...anyway i wasnt offended by the original post at all...just wanted to shair my point of view on the subject.

 

[djeclipse]

yep u hit the nail on the head. back then, there were some interesting topics debated and some good discussions... won't go into detail but it should suffice to say that things were a lot more interesting then. and i guess some of those sharp vets who are still around are probably fedup with answering the same questions again and again and you don't see them post as much anymore.

But like Madcow2 said, the reason for all the repetative questions, week after week is the search function is not available to the regular members. So instead of searching for info on a topic they make a new one about the same old things.

And because of it the vets get fed up with the same old topics being made weekly so they stop checking the boards. The noobs are the ones that need the search function the most.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

That's not the only reason. Hell, that's far and away the main reason - people are fucking stupid, and people are fucking lazy. That's the big issue.

There are other great forums out there, and people ask the same shit there too. I'm not saying the search function wouldn't rid us of some of the crap, but there are always going to be adolescents and lazy college students who would rather piss away their time asking the same question over and over, across many message boards, instead of digging up the answer (which has been the same fucking thing since, what, the 50's?) on their own.

Don't take human stupidity for granted. It's powerful.

 

[psychedout]

That's not the only reason. Hell, that's far and away the main reason - people are fucking stupid, and people are fucking lazy. That's the big issue.

There are other great forums out there, and people ask the same shit there too. I'm not saying the search function wouldn't rid us of some of the crap, but there are always going to be adolescents and lazy college students who would rather piss away their time asking the same question over and over, across many message boards, instead of digging up the answer (which has been the same fucking thing since, what, the 50's?) on their own.

Don't take human stupidity for granted. It's powerful.

To quote Einstein: There are only two things I know of that are infinite. The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the former.

 

[dugie65]

i'm glad i see a lot of younger guys on this board like myself.

I like to stick to my training rather than the drugs.

Sure they play a part but it shouldnt be the basis to any one gaining muscle.

 

[silver_shadow]

as SF151 pointed out, the anabolic board is to discuss anabolics and the weights board is for training so you won't see training discussed on the anabolic board. but hasn't anyone ever wondered why some of the noobs on that board are rarely if ever seen here learning how they could enhance their bodies through good solid workout knowledge?

 

[casualbb]

Elite is a huge site, with its anabolic board more prominently displayed than training by a huge degree. So when people come here, first thing they see is BAM anabolic.

And then you have noobs getting recommended cycles very liberally.

So people get the idea that steroid use is "the way," because elite is a huge site and its the norm.

And the thing is, once you decide to start using... the effect of changes in drug regimen and diet VASTLY outweigh changes in training. Moving weights is just a complicated (and sometimes painful) way to force the body to retain some protein. Steroids do that significantly if you just sit on your ass, but with synergistic effects with training.

In other words, someone who has a crappy routine but good diet and roids stands to gain much more by taking more roids than he does by switching to a good routine. That's just the nature of chemistry. Steroids send a powerful signal to grow that's far higher than anything you can induce naturally.

Look at the olympia winner before and after steroid use caught on. The golden era guys are big and well-shaped, but still look fairly human. Less so with the arnold era, but as time moved on the dosages grew. And now we have ronnie coleman, who probably has someone help him put on his shoes.

so i got a little rambly, but yeah, that's why crappy training tends to reign among those who are on the anabolic board but not the training board.

 

[silver_shadow]

Elite is a huge site, with its anabolic board more prominently displayed than training by a huge degree. So when people come here, first thing they see is BAM anabolic.

And then you have noobs getting recommended cycles very liberally.

So people get the idea that steroid use is "the way," because elite is a huge site and its the norm.

And the thing is, once you decide to start using... the effect of changes in drug regimen and diet VASTLY outweigh changes in training. Moving weights is just a complicated (and sometimes painful) way to force the body to retain some protein. Steroids do that significantly if you just sit on your ass, but with synergistic effects with training.

In other words, someone who has a crappy routine but good diet and roids stands to gain much more by taking more roids than he does by switching to a good routine. That's just the nature of chemistry. Steroids send a powerful signal to grow that's far higher than anything you can induce naturally.

Look at the olympia winner before and after steroid use caught on. The golden era guys are big and well-shaped, but still look fairly human. Less so with the arnold era, but as time moved on the dosages grew. And now we have ronnie coleman, who probably has someone help him put on his shoes.

so i got a little rambly, but yeah, that's why crappy training tends to reign among those who are on the anabolic board but not the training board.

BTW, nowadays if i post on a noobs thread on the anabolic board (i don't post much on that board anymore) then i try to divert folks here. i too started reading only that board back in the day but EF is not only about the AAS forum. so i'd come here and do some reading too and that's how i started learning. it's unfortunate that so many guys seem to start there and end there.

 

[UrlMighty]

It's most painful when you see someone posting in their mid to late teens and have been training a 'solid six months' and want to start a cycle. They have no idea on how to train nor how to eat and think that all they need is juice, completely oblivious to the fact that they'll be shutting themselves down.

 

[silver_shadow]

and now this Sticky: SatchBoogie is a scammer

 

[djeclipse]

and now this Sticky: SatchBoogie is a scammer

What is this all about? the only forum i ever check/pit in on this board is this one, I have no clue what's going on with the rest of the board.

 

[Tweakle]

waa waa mommy I lost my allowance.. why anyone would come out and admit that on an internet loaded with hundreds of good sources they were just too fucking stupid to find one & decided to pay some greasy douche twice the asking price on gear is beyond me.

Good stuff imo, the beach body kids and primo fruits deserve to be scammed.

 

[BiggT]

LOL...'Primo Fruits' has to be the funniest thing I have heard all week. I'd give you K, but it says I have to spread it around more.

I think Abercrombie should sell some $48 tank tops that say "Primo Fruit".

 

[UrlMighty]

That's too funny.

 

[silver_shadow]

What is this all about? the only forum i ever check/pit in on this board is this one, I have no clue what's going on with the rest of the board.

in a nutshell - there's this dude who used to be a *superstar* member over on the AAS forum. he had (some ppl claim anyway) backing of some mods... while he pushed bogus gear and then it turns out he was a scammer. i'm not really sure about the mods and their involvement (or lack of it for that matter) but what's important to me is firstly what tweakle said, and also the fact that occassionally someone would come in and accuse satch of being a scammer and get flamed for it because satch had voice on the board and also had the backing of ppl with a voice. bottomline is that for some reason politics seems to thrive on that board. this is the INTERNET ppl. most guys don't know each other personally, just "know" each other over an AAS info forum...

 

[ceo]

This thread is even more pertinent now than then I think.

 

[binö]

what i find fucked up is how many 18-25 yr old peeps are open sauce abusers
doing long cycles, bridging in between, never coming off, using hgh.
all before the age of 25...complete lack of regard for their bodies future health

 

[djeclipse]

This thread is even more pertinent now than then I think.

This thread is a snap shot of what this board used to be like not too long ago... I started reading it, saw familiar names/ faces and then realised it was 2 years old...

It was form when the board was about good training, now it's been taken over by a lot of ignorance and way too much talk about bies, tries, shrugs, isolation crap, instead of good lifting...

ahhh the good old days, lol

 

[markmark]

When i put on about 45 lbs in around 10 weeks i had stretch marks on my arms, still got them, my doctor asked me if i was using roids lol i have never used roids and can't see myself using them.

45 lbs. in ten weeks and no roids!!! not lean muscle my friend, 10-15 lbs muscle and 25-30 lbs. of fat I believe is more like it.. pack of bacon with breakfast and 2 pizzas for lunch & dinner with 2 liter coca cola I too can gain 45 lbs. in ten weeks..

 

[silver_shadow]

45 lbs. in ten weeks and no roids!!! not lean muscle my friend, 10-15 lbs muscle and 25-30 lbs. of fat I believe is more like it.. pack of bacon with breakfast and 2 pizzas for lunch & dinner with 2 liter coca cola I too can gain 45 lbs. in ten weeks..

chances are you aren't going to gain more than 20lbs muscle (after you lose some of the gains) even if you were on the sauce.... and you'd be lucky if you did. 10lbs of lean weight gain is a more reasonable goal for 10 weeks.