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HUCK , MACRO , FONZ , vets , mods -Can you still GROW on a VERY LOW CALORIE diet ?

VictorBR

New member
Just want to know what you guys think , I am having a beef with my bro jenectic here on this one :p

My personal opinion is that you can . Without AAS is not easy , but it can be DONE . BUT , with AAS it is really easy on my point of view .

FACT 1 - We don't need HOW many calories a muscle needs to grow , to hypertrophy .

FACT 2 - Protein ( aminoacids ) builds muscle , so if you provide enough of this to your muscle , they should grow

Now , I am a living proof that it is very possible to GAIN MUSCLE on a LOW CALORIE diet while still losing fat . And when I mean low calorie diet , I mean eating LESS than your BMR . Of Course you will never grow like if you were eating above your BMR , but you can STILL GROW .

For example : My BMR is 2.500 cals a day . Ok , So I spend around 1.000 cals on the gym .

So for me to maintain my weight I would have to eat 3.500 cals a day right ?

Ok , on my last cycle I was using very mild substances like EQ ( 350 week ) , win ( 50 mg EOD ) and HGH ( like 1 IU ED ), for 8 weeks and I was eating like 2.000-2.500 cals a day , so I would spend 1000 cals on the gym.

This would give me a daily ingestion of 1000-1.500 cals . ( pretty much under my BMR )

By most people's logic I wouldn't be able to gain muscle , since I would have to eat more than 3.500 cals to gain muscle .

Guess what ? I was beeing carefully monitored by a pro and I finished the damn cycle with + 10 lbs of SOLID MUSCLE ( no WATER retention at all ) and at the same time losing 15 lbs of fat .

Now , explain that to me .


Victor
 
VictorBR said:
Just want to know what you guys think , I am having a beef with my bro jenectic here on this one :p

My personal opinion is that you can . Without AAS is not easy , but it can be DONE . BUT , with AAS it is really easy on my point of view .

FACT 1 - We don't need HOW many calories a muscle needs to grow , to hypertrophy .

FACT 2 - Protein ( aminoacids ) builds muscle , so if you provide enough of this to your muscle , they should grow

Now , I am a living proof that it is very possible to GAIN MUSCLE on a LOW CALORIE diet while still losing fat . And when I mean low calorie diet , I mean eating LESS than your BMR . Of Course you will never grow like if you were eating above your BMR , but you can STILL GROW .

For example : My BMR is 2.500 cals a day . Ok , So I spend around 1.000 cals on the gym .

So for me to maintain my weight I would have to eat 3.500 cals a day right ?

Ok , on my last cycle I was using very mild substances like EQ ( 350 week ) , win ( 50 mg EOD ) and HGH ( like 1 IU ED ), for 8 weeks and I was eating like 2.000-2.500 cals a day , so I would spend 1000 cals on the gym.

This would give me a daily ingestion of 1000-1.500 cals . ( pretty much under my BMR )

By most people's logic I wouldn't be able to gain muscle , since I would have to eat more than 3.500 cals to gain muscle .

Guess what ? I was beeing carefully monitored by a pro and I finished the damn cycle with + 10 lbs of SOLID MUSCLE ( no WATER retention at all ) and at the same time losing 15 lbs of fat .

Now , explain that to me .


Victor

I am currently gaining a lot of muscle while loosing fat, it's very obvious on the mirror. Everyone is making comments, so it must be true.
 
DO you know what your BMR is bro ? how many cals you spend on the gym ? and how many cals are you eating ?


Victor
 
i predict this thread will hit 5+pages..a good and controversial topic of dicussion. this board is full of body building dogma and mythology and hypocrosy(sp)


this shall be interesting.......
 
Absolutely IMPOSSIBLE!

It is physiologically impossible to grow if your calories are below your maintenance level. You muscles appear larger when cutting due to a lower bf %, but to increase lbm while on a caloric deficient diet is definitely a stretch.
 
" It is physiologically impossible to grow if your calories are below your maintenance level. You muscles appear larger when cutting due to a lower bf %, but to increase lbm while on a caloric deficient diet is definitely a stretch. "

>>. Sorry but my arms actually GOT bigger and way more ripped . Like I said , 10 lbs of muscle while losing 15 lbs of fat , AND caloric deficit . ( eat 2.500 , lose 1000 on the gym = 1.500 cals daily intake )

So it was 1.000 cals UNDER my BMR which is 2.500 cals


Victor
 
It is possible, especially when you are at a higher bf%, and on gear. However, I do think that there is a limit to this, and as you progress it becomes much harder to accomplish this feat.
 
you have a good point .

I think the more muscle you have the harder it would be to eat low cals and still grow

but it is harder anyway , the more muscle you put , the harder it gets to put more , either by eating a lot or eating few cals. Anyway it will get harder .


Victor
 
dali said:
Absolutely IMPOSSIBLE!

It is physiologically impossible to grow if your calories are below your maintenance level. You muscles appear larger when cutting due to a lower bf %, but to increase lbm while on a caloric deficient diet is definitely a stretch.

Law of Energy Conservation

Energy cannot be created or destroyed but may be transformed from one kind to another.

Laws of Thermodynamics

Work and heat are mutually convertible (may be converted from one form to another). The change in a system's internal energy is equal to the heat absorbed (calories in) from the environment minus work done (calories out) on the environment.

In other words, if your fat (energy) storage is increasing, it is coming from the amount of food (energy) you consume compared to the amount of energy you expend.

Laws of Thermodynamics Applied to the Human Energy System

Where E = energy expressed in calories, which is a measurement of heat.

1. If E in (food consumption) = E out (total bodywork), then body fat or weight remains stable.

2. If E in > E out, then body fat or weight is gained.

3. If E in < E out, then body fat or weight is lost.

Victor,

I have a few questions. Please elaborate. BTW, No flame intended:

1. What were your calculations based upon? How did you determine your maintenance calories (BMR)? Age, Height, Weight, Activity Level ect...?

2. How did you determine your daily caloric intake? Around 2,500 cal is not good enough for an argument such as this.

3. How did you determine your caloric expenditure during your workout? Anaerobic vs. Aerobic?

4. Proffesionally tested? Just because he is a professional doesn't mean he is any good at what he does.

5. How did you measure your water weight? Was there some initial calculation perfomed to show a difference in regards to your results?

Approximate figures are not good enough which is the problem for an agrument such as this. Many people think they count their calories but are way off in reality. If your intial basline calculations were off, your answers would be inacurrate as well.

Regardless, I am happy to hear you had good results with the cycle. Just think what you could have gained with an increase to your caloric intake and adjustment in your macronutrient ratios.

I would be interested if any could provide any studies or hard evidence that link the any of the factors such as the Law of Thermodynamics to Hypertrophy or any other factors that I am missing or unaware of. This would be greatly appreciated as well as helpful in proving a point such as gaining muscle while in a caloric defecit.

Jenetic
 
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1. What were your calculations based upon? How did you determine your maintenance calories? Age, Height, Weight, Activity Level ect...?

>>> ANyone can find the BMR formula on the net , just click BMR on google .
It is that easy

2. How did you determine your daily caloric intake? Around 2,500 cal is not good enough for an argument such as this.

>>>> WOW , How did I determine ? Hummm lemme guess , by reading the LABELS on the foods I buy on the market .? How is that ? there is also this thing called GOOGLE and you can type the name of the food and the word calorie ,and he will show results :)

3. Proffesionally tested? Just because he is a professional doesn't mean he is any good at what he does.

>>> EVEN if he is not good at what he does , It is the same person , and the same weight scale , so if the SAME guy measures 20 % and then he measures 10 % bodyfat , you made a progress . EVEN IF you was 25 % and now 15 % . The same thing with a scale , the same scale used all time , even if it is OFF , you can see the results . I think you got the point

4. How did you measure your water weight? Was there some initial calculation perfomed to show a difference in regards to your results?

>>>> THe drugs that I have used would not cause water retention , I was looking a LOT leaner and BIGGER and drinking tons of water , I just couldn't be holding any water .


Yeah , I could have gained a lot more MUSCLE by eating 4000 cals a day , that is for SURE , I agree with you , but by eating 4000 cals a day I wouldn't be able to lose any fat at ALL . It is a double edge sword :

1- EAT LESS , GROW LESS , BUT LOSE FAT .

2- EAT MORE , GROW MORE , BUT DON'T LOSE FAT .

You choose.

Accept the truth my man :p , I am going against the LAWS of THERMODYNAMICS , hell yeah I am going against them .

Victor
 
Jenetic said:
Approximate figures are not good enough which is the problem for an agrument such as this. Many people think they count their calories but are way off in reality. If your intial basline calculations were off, your answers would be inacurrate as well.

I would be interested if any could provide any studies or hard evidence that link the any of the factors such as the Law of Thermodynamics to Hypertrophy or any other factors that I am missing or unaware of. This would be greatly appreciated as well as helpful in proving a point such as gaining muscle while in a caloric defecit.

Jenetic

Your answers are still vague :qt:
 
Last edited:
" Your answers are still vague

If you were that detailed I'm sure you would have a word file or excel spreadsheet documenting the details that I have requested. Without them, you really don't have an argument. "


>>> Yep I can't prove , all I have is my WORD . You can choose to believe it or not .


Victor
 
There are MANY other factors which I dont know if you have taken into consideration...

An advanced athlete will find it near impossible...
A beginner can probably pack on muscle even on a very restricted caloric diet...

Personally all I do is shrink up on anything under 5,000 calories a day...I'm such an extreme exctomorph though :)

Its 2 AM, and my brain cant get anymore indepth than that right now :p :sleeping:
 
I think it's simple.

Protein Synthesized due to muscular hypertrophy(i.e. you rip the muscle, and the muscle itself grows back bigger and larger) has to be >(Greater than ) Protein Catabolism(degradation).

With one restriction. The protein synthesized due to exogeneous means must be within the boundaries of a person's ability to generate protein synthesis.

If all this is true + the restriction....you grow. Even on lowered calories.
 
Fonz said:
I think it's simple.

Protein Synthesized due to muscular hypertrophy(i.e. you rip the muscle, and the muscle itself grows back bigger and larger) has to be >(Greater than ) Protein Catabolism(degradation).

With one restriction. The protein synthesized due to exogeneous means must be within the boundaries of a person's ability to generate protein synthesis.

If all this is true + the restriction....you grow. Even on lowered calories.

i am using t3 50mcg ed
prop 50mgs eod
winny 50mgs eod
cyp 200mgs ew

i am proof to back fonz up since i am in a demanding sales mgr position and i rarely get to sit down and eat good meals. on my days off i do but otherwise my caloric/protein/carb intake isnt where it should be yet i keep shredding fat and maintaining weight, put it this way i was 6ft 190lbs with noticeable fat on lower abs(tire) now i am 195-199 and little to no more fat and visible abs, so i say yes you can grow
 
Congratulation's on your gain's VICTOR sounds really good. Interesting topic and if you don't mind I will give my two cents if you could provide us with your before stats : age,weight ,bf%,type of bf test,measurements,activity level(work,exercise)ratios of food and also your current status(when you achive those results.)
 
Many relevent points already addressed here...Possible,yes.Easy to do?For most people,no.Fonz probably nailed the most important point.As long as you can maintain positive nitrogenic retention and avoid amino acid exportation(by keeping protein as your main staple/macronutrient),then you can still grow,but it will be more difficult to maintain strength,as ATP is likely to be drained for sure in a sub-caloric state.This is where certain anabolics are a godsend though,as they keep the PNS stimulated even in an ATP depleted state,which helps maintain contractile force.

Bottom line,if you're goal is to maintain/gain a slight amount of LBM sub-calorically,make sure to keep protein as your main dietary staple.

Oh,and A/S won't hurt either.:)
 
biochemically it can occur.

the piece of the puzzle most here are missing is that your body can utilise energy other than dietary nutrients for use both for atp synthesis, and skeletal muscle synthesis.

the trick is to be able to use the food you eat (particularly protein) to build new muscle while using your existing energy stores (fat) to fuel the bodys ATP needs more than usual.

then of course you should consider taht metabolism isnt a constant. metabolism = anabolism + catabolism. eating less food and training may decrease overall metabolism, but that is no guarantee that the anabolic component/processes we are interested in (muscle growth) will be any less in the calorie restricted state than in the normal caloric state.

cheers
 
ultra clean carbs

that means no processed stuff

only fruits vegitables, and the use of oats, and grains sparingly
when you eat the grains and oats take Glucorell-r with it

most people don't know this

but fruits, veigitables, and milk sugar are the only form that illicit NO INSULIN spike or a relativley low one

these sugars bypass the celluar membrane and our directly converted into energy for you body

eat super clean protien and CUT FATS TO less than 50 grams a day


no one has payed attention to this diet but it works:



by eating only fruits and vegitables as your source of carbs.

and maybe one serving of complex carbs in the from of breads, and other processed slow burning carbs.......

hope you enjoy! OMEGA




Jon Bailey


Editor’s note: I believe that most people fail in their attempts to gain size in the area of their diets. They may train hard, even take megadoses of anabolic steroids, but really, everything is based on diet. When someone asks me why he’s not gaining weight, I immediately question him about what he is (or isn’t) eating. Jon Bailey is the best-known bodybuilding nutritionist in Southern California. He has the reputation of getting even hard gainers to put on quality size. He has worked with some very well known national caliber bodybuilders, although you won’t find them talking about their secret nutritionist. Jon, in this chapter, gives you an introduction to his methods, which, when followed, can work very well. Average gains on Jon’s diet are about 30 pounds of mostly solid muscle in two months time!
Of all the problems that any bodybuilder faces, choosing or designing an ultimate nutritional program is probably the most difficult. This holds true for the most advanced bodybuilder as well as the beginner. A large part of this dilemma is due to the hundreds of articles written on this particular subject. There are many ideas discussed by various so called nutritional experts, often contradicting each other. So, how do you choose which system is right for you? One thing I want you to keep in mind is that anyone writing on bodybuilding nutrition, including myself, has no idea who is reading the material. I cannot write a definite diet because I don’t know it the person reading this is male or female, fifteen years old or fifty, one hundred or three hundred pounds. No single nutritional program will be applicable to everyone. For optimal results, each diet should be done on an individual basis depending on the person’s goals, age, sex, size, training experience, etc. With this disclaimer, I will outline my basic nutritional program format, which, although not ‘line tuned” will be of great benefit to all of you.

Over the last twenty years, I’ve spent thousands of hours trying to develop the most efficient diets for all phases of bodybuilding. This includes diets for beginners, intermediates, and the most advanced, gaining diets (bulking), hardening diets, and cutting diets. In the last twenty years, I’ve written over three thousand diets, mostly for bodybuilders in the Southern California area. I’ve tried virtually every combination possible. This includes high protein/low carbohydrate, zero fat, high complex carbohydrate/moderate protein, low protein/high simple carbohydrate, ad infinitum. You name a combination of foods and I’ve tried it. So, I’ll save you a lot of time by telling you that I know from experience with many bodybuilders what works and what doesn’t. The system that evolved from all this experimentation is the system that I presently use and is the one I consider the most efficient.

There are several essential factors you must keep in mind while you design a high efficiency bodybuilding diet. Coordinate your entire program in accordance with what your goals are. Anabolic steroids, diet and your training program should all work together. You must also consider your job and your financial status. Those bodybuilders who failed on my system did so usually because they did not realistically assess the time and money needed for the system to work. Maybe they had a job that didn’t allow them to eat frequently, so they skipped meals, or they could only commit half the money actually needed for the grocery bill each week. My system does not fail; it is the user which fails to follow the system.

The factors of diet, pharmaceuticals, and training all make up a synergistic system. For example, certain foods work better with certain anabolic steroids and should be taken into consideration. The nutritional program should be progressive. It’s best to do the program in stages because as you grow, your system adjusts; the body will be able to utilize more nutrients. I believe that food combining is a most important factor in the design of a diet. Since you will be eating several meals a day, it is best to combine foods properly so that each meal is digested quickly and



efficiently. You don’t want to ingest your second (or third) meal before gastric emptying of the previous meal. As to the actual diet, I prefer the following guidelines:

· In most cases, 5 to 7 meals per day, depending on the individual’s size, goals, and training experience
· A high protein, high carbohydrate diet
· A simple isolated complex carbohydrate diet

Most of your meals should consist of simple carbohydrates (monosaccharides). I like using at least three different sources of fruits and fruit juices that are digested and absorbed at different rates. This allows your blood sugar to rise gradually then stabilize. Protein foods should also be mixed so they are assimilated at different rates. This enables your system to utilize more nutrients as the protein is metered gradually into the intestinal tract. Also, if high quality protein foods are used, this will give a more efficient mixture of amino acids. It is best to keep your large complex carbohydrate (polysaccharide) meal isolated. If you mix a large amount of complex carbs with a large amount of hard to digest protein foods, the combination will take too long to digest. Also, keep your intake of milk products low as they tend to form too much mucus, clogging your system. Fiber intake should be high to keep your intestinal tract clean, allowing more nutrients to be absorbed.

It is a good practice to get various types of bulk and fiber. Coarse fiber can be found in the skins of fruit and leafy green vegetables. Medium fiber can be added with grain products or pineapple. I use bananas as a good source of fine fiber.

I try to keep fats very low in this system as they are hard to digest and slow absorption down. I am not too concerned with precise ratios of saturated and unsaturated fats. It is very hard to keep saturated fats low unless you are a vegetarian.

I’m going to give you an example of a typical bodybuilding diet. This would be for an intermediate bodybuilder who is trying to pain muscular bodyweight and who is not already over 12% body fat. Exact amounts are not given since they vary so much from individual to individual. Normally when I design a nutritional program for a client, exact amounts are given.

Meal #1 (Breakfast, 15 to 20 minutes after awakening)

Fresh raw apple or pear, with skin
Fresh banana
Raisins or other dried fruit
Whole eggs, any style except fried or raw
Turkey or chicken breast
Roundsteak or extra lean ground beef, baked or broiled
Fruit juice
Supplements


Meal #2 (approximately 3 hours after meal #1)

Fresh raw pineapple
Dried apple or apricot
Whole eggs, any style except fried or raw
Any low f at fish, baked or broiled
Fruit juice with a protein powder mixed in Supplements






Meal #3 (Lunch, 1 1/2 hours after meal #2)

Small green salad; safflower oil and vinegar dressing
Banana or other easily digested fruit
Turkey or chicken breast
Any lean red meat, baked or broiled
Mineral or bottled water
Supplements


Meal #4 (3-3 1/2 hours after #3; a pre-workout meal)

Banana or other easily digested fruit
Raisins or other dried fruit
Small amount of easily digested protein; poultry or fish
Ultimate Orange drink


Meal #5 (Post workout meal, complex carbohydrate meal)

Portion of green vegetable
Vegetable or vegetable beef soup
Baked potato or pasta
Brown rice or corn
Whole wheat bread
Vegetable juice cocktail
Supplements


Meal #6 (1 to 2 hours before bed)

Whole eggs, any style except fried or raw
Small amount of cottage cheese or yogurt
Fresh raw apple or pear with skin
Roundsteak or extra lean ground beef, baked or broiled
Fruit juice
Supplements


This type of nutritional program will accomplish many things. It will keep the individual’s metabolic rate high; his system will remain clean and efficient and a positive nitrogen balance will be maintained. A program like this with proper supplements will cover all the bases, nutritionally speaking.

I believe strongly in supplementation. The more food you ingest, the more supplements your body will need. Of particular importance are water soluble vitamins as high fiber diets tend to flush these vitamins through the system. Also, a multi-mineral supplement should be taken. It is a good idea to read up on all vitamins and minerals so that you are familiar with their functions. An easy way to do this is with a Nutritional Almanac. It will give you a sound and basic understanding of all the nutrients and how they work together, but remember that if you are a bodybuilder and training hard you will need considerably higher amounts than the average recommended dosages. I like to get smaller dosages of water soluble vitamins but more often throughout the day. Also, the types of diets I plan require heavy mineral supplementation as dairy products are used sparingly. With large protein meals, it is a good insurance to supplement certain limiting amino acids and free L-Lysine (base).

Like the actual diet, supplementation is dependent, and must be tailored according to what the individual is trying to accomplish. Certain nutrients are more essential in a pre-contest or cutting diet as compared to a bulking diet (and vice-versa).

In conclusion, try to keep your diet individualized and in accordance with your stage of development and training. Keep your program progressive, and if you are on any anabolic steroids, learn what nutrients work best in conjunction with them. A general rule is that most oral steroids work best with a diet high in red meats (water based injectables, too). Most oil-based injectables seem to work better with poultry and eggs, but always keep a good balance in your diet.
 
Didnt huck post a study showing ox kept people in positive nitrogen balance with like no food? Gear changes eveverything, it's that simple
 
MrMakaveli said:
Didnt huck post a study showing ox kept people in positive nitrogen balance with like no food? Gear changes eveverything, it's that simple

Yes,it blunted AA exportation during an overnight fast,which is amazing.
 
Jenetic said:
Law of Energy Conservation

Energy cannot be created or destroyed but may be transformed from one kind to another.

Laws of Thermodynamics

Work and heat are mutually convertible (may be converted from one form to another). The change in a system's internal energy is equal to the heat absorbed (calories in) from the environment minus work done (calories out) on the environment.

In other words, if your fat (energy) storage is increasing, it is coming from the amount of food (energy) you consume compared to the amount of energy you expend.

Laws of Thermodynamics Applied to the Human Energy System

Where E = energy expressed in calories, which is a measurement of heat.

1. If E in (food consumption) = E out (total bodywork), then body fat or weight remains stable.

2. If E in > E out, then body fat or weight is gained.

3. If E in < E out, then body fat or weight is lost.

Victor,

I have a few questions. Please elaborate. BTW, No flame intended:

1. What were your calculations based upon? How did you determine your maintenance calories (BMR)? Age, Height, Weight, Activity Level ect...?

2. How did you determine your daily caloric intake? Around 2,500 cal is not good enough for an argument such as this.

3. How did you determine your caloric expenditure during your workout? Anaerobic vs. Aerobic?

4. Proffesionally tested? Just because he is a professional doesn't mean he is any good at what he does.

5. How did you measure your water weight? Was there some initial calculation perfomed to show a difference in regards to your results?

Approximate figures are not good enough which is the problem for an agrument such as this. Many people think they count their calories but are way off in reality. If your intial basline calculations were off, your answers would be inacurrate as well.

Regardless, I am happy to hear you had good results with the cycle. Just think what you could have gained with an increase to your caloric intake and adjustment in your macronutrient ratios.

I would be interested if any could provide any studies or hard evidence that link the any of the factors such as the Law of Thermodynamics to Hypertrophy or any other factors that I am missing or unaware of. This would be greatly appreciated as well as helpful in proving a point such as gaining muscle while in a caloric defecit.

Jenetic

What you are forgetting about is all of the stored up energy already in the body in the form of fat. Even though you may be eating less than maintenance calories, your body can still use its fat calories for energy, and the calories that you consume from eating for building muscle. Hence losing body fat and gaining lbm at the same time. As huck said this is not easy for most to do, but for a beginner, or for someone who is recently getting back into lifting this is definitely possible. Your diet would have to be relatively high in protein, and gear of course would help with the building of muscle.
 
HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex said:
Many relevent points already addressed here...Possible,yes.Easy to do?For most people,no.Fonz probably nailed the most important point.As long as you can maintain positive nitrogenic retention and avoid amino acid exportation(by keeping protein as your main staple/macronutrient),then you can still grow,but it will be more difficult to maintain strength,as ATP is likely to be drained for sure in a sub-caloric state.This is where certain anabolics are a godsend though,as they keep the PNS stimulated even in an ATP depleted state,which helps maintain contractile force.

Bottom line,if you're goal is to maintain/gain a slight amount of LBM sub-calorically,make sure to keep protein as your main dietary staple.

Oh,and A/S won't hurt either.:)

Gee. A good thread once in a while from a lot of knowlegable guys. GREAT.

HUCK, what sort of macro nutrients ratios than would you suggest when dieting down without loosing muscle and possibly ADDING some muscle? I'm going to run Fina and Test??

Usually I have great experience in terms of loosing fat with 45% protein, 45% fat(only omegas 3-6-9) and about 10% carbs (except on workout days). However, the problem with high fat macronutrients percantages is that it leaves a smaller amounts of proteins for the day (since fat is 9cals and not4)

Your thoughts please
 
It is possible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time on a calorie defict diet. I did it a couple of yrs ago. I dont have specific figures on what I was eating but I ate the same thing for 5 weeks day in day out. Just 2 meals a day of boiled chicken and rice and one protein shake after the gym at night and I cut up nicely and gained strength. Admitedly I wasnt that big at the time, I was about 160 lbs when I finnished but it can be done.
 
good discussion! i miss these, there are less and less good discussions here, most posts are flame wars and people trying to force their points of view!
keep this going
 
junk said:
Gee. A good thread once in a while from a lot of knowlegable guys. GREAT.

HUCK, what sort of macro nutrients ratios than would you suggest when dieting down without loosing muscle and possibly ADDING some muscle? I'm going to run Fina and Test??

Usually I have great experience in terms of loosing fat with 45% protein, 45% fat(only omegas 3-6-9) and about 10% carbs (except on workout days). However, the problem with high fat macronutrients percantages is that it leaves a smaller amounts of proteins for the day (since fat is 9cals and not4)

Your thoughts please

Well,most will likely cringe at what I consider a good sub-caloric breakdown:
65% protein
25-30% fats
5-10% carbs

Carbs can actually go up some if they're ultra clean/Fibrous(Broccoli,cauliflower,lettuce,etc.)but for a lard ass endomorph like me,I have to almost eliminate them altogether.
 
HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex said:
Carbs can actually go up some if they're ultra clean/Fibrous(Broccoli,cauliflower,lettuce,etc.)but for a lard ass endomorph like me,I have to almost eliminate them altogether.


you are not alone :)

but boy can we pack on mass :artist:
 
latinlover said:
Congratulation's on your gain's VICTOR sounds really good. Interesting topic and if you don't mind I will give my two cents if you could provide us with your before stats : age,weight ,bf%,type of bf test,measurements,activity level(work,exercise)ratios of food and also your current status(when you achive those results.)


>>> thanks , When I did it , it was in 2001 , I was 21 years of age and I started my cycle like this ( those stats are probably not 100 % accurate because it was a long time ago , but it is pretty close to what happened to me ) :

before:

weight - 210 lbs
LBM - 178.5 lbs
fat weight - 31.5 lbs
body fat % = 16 % ( using lange calipers and pollock method )

I finished like this :

weight - 205 lbs
LBM -188.5 lbs
fat weight - 16.5 lbs
body fat % = 9 % ( using same methods )

training was = weight training 4-5 x a week and aerobics 4 x a week.

maronutrients ratio was like this = 250 g of protein , 200 g of carbs and 75 g of fat = 2.500 cals .


I am glad everyones agree with me , but my man jenectic is still trying to prove me wrong :rolleyes:



Victor
 
HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex said:
Many relevent points already addressed here...Possible,yes.Easy to do?For most people,no.Fonz probably nailed the most important point.As long as you can maintain positive nitrogenic retention and avoid amino acid exportation(by keeping protein as your main staple/macronutrient),then you can still grow,but it will be more difficult to maintain strength,as ATP is likely to be drained for sure in a sub-caloric state.This is where certain anabolics are a godsend though,as they keep the PNS stimulated even in an ATP depleted state,which helps maintain contractile force.

Bottom line,if you're goal is to maintain/gain a slight amount of LBM sub-calorically,make sure to keep protein as your main dietary staple.

Oh,and A/S won't hurt either.:)

I stand corrected on the statement of this topic being an impossibility.

I am interested in what the effects of ketoacids and cortisol would play at this point especially during and post work out?
 
Jenetic said:
I stand corrected on the statement of this topic being an impossibility.

I am interested in what the effects of ketoacids and cortisol would play at this point especially during and post work out?

Both of those are certainly relevent factors,particularly if no anabolics are used.Cortisol will definitely be something to watch out for,as sub-cal/stress are wonderful catalysts for its release(can you say achy joints?).This is where something like anavar,winstrol or fina(which all modulate the gluccocoticoid system)would be HIGHLY beneficial,and another reason why so many folks prefer them during cutting cycles.
 
VictorBR said:
training was = weight training 4-5 x a week and aerobics 4 x a week.

maronutrients ratio was like this = 250 g of protein , 200 g of carbs and 75 g of fat = 2.500 cals .

Victor

Thanks for your input Huck.

Keeping in mind all the topics and factors raised in this discussion, is the above diet that he was on fit accordingly? I am a bit confused when I look at the all the statistics that he has presented.

Karma to everyone who put forth the thought and effort in making a substantiated post in this discussion.
 
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The only dispute here would be did it happen in this particular case.
 
Well his macro intake would not work for me personally to achieve those end results,but his metabolism may make better usage of the carbs and protein than mine.For me,that protein would be too low,carbs too high,but for someone else that protein may be enough to build on,and that amount of carbs MIGHT be enough to sustain ATP populations without skewing insulin release(and causing the system to store BF).It really is a genetic individuality issue here.What works for one person may not for another.Simultanious BF loss coupled with LBM gain is certainly a challenge for literally anyone,but it can be achieved in the right hormonal/nutritional environment.Endomorphs like myself probably have a harder time than anyone achieving such a feat.
 
huck right now im on primo/winny and i had to switch to ckd style diet. lets just say im really satisfied so far. although winny is ravishing my joints im still cutting up and not getting flat so far
 
Personally, if I couldn't meet my caloric requirements due to whatever cause and still wanted to grow i would use:

Tren 75mg ED/Winstrol 50mg ED(or EOD)/Anavar 50mg ED

Winstrol, Trenbolone, and Anavar are the best AAS at increasing Nitrogen retention, and therfore letting you gain muscle even at hypocaloric diets.
Of course, like Huck said eating enough protein is totally essential. No protein = no nitrogen.
 
Jenetic said:
The only dispute here would be did it happen in this particular case.


>>> Well , I don't see why my statistics looks confuse to you . It is pretty simple actually , + 10 lbs of muscle and -15 lbs of FAT , eating 2500 cals .
Of course this is not 100 % accurate I might have gained 8 lbs of muscle and lost 13 lbs of fat ?? but who cares , fact is that it happened to me.

And now that you realized that it is possible , you gotta say that it is possible, but do you hesitate to believe that it did happen in my particular case ? Why is that ?

Well, man It happened ;) , I really don't understand why do you hesitate to believe this

That is why I told you before that I can grow like a mofo , I never DID a bulking cycle OR a bulking diet on my life ( i am always dieting with restricted cals to lose the damn fat ) but I have 17.5 guns and 222 lbs , now body fat is a bit high at 15-16 % , I can gain fat easily , but I can grow like a weed just by looking at food .


Victor
 
Fonz said:
Personally, if I couldn't meet my caloric requirements due to whatever cause and still wanted to grow i would use:

Tren 75mg ED/Winstrol 50mg ED(or EOD)/Anavar 50mg ED

Winstrol, Trenbolone, and Anavar are the best AAS at increasing Nitrogen retention, and therfore letting you gain muscle even at hypocaloric diets.
Of course, like Huck said eating enough protein is totally essential. No protein = no nitrogen.


>>> Maybe that is why I gained that much , because of the WIN . LEgit zambons , the best ones . I was doing it 50 mg EOD , some weeks ( only a few of those 8 ) 100 mg EOD .... I want some var for my next cycle .


Victor
 
VictorBR said:
Well, man It happened ;) , I really don't understand why do you hesitate to believe this
Victor

Have you read everything posted in detail?

There have been many valid points that have been made. Even things that should arouse new questions in your mind.

Didn't you say that you were and endomorph?

Read bro! A selective memory won't help you anywhere in life.

Let me make you happy.

You're right I'm wrong. End of conversation.
 
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Jenetic said:
Have you read everything posted in detail?

There have been many valid points that have been made. Even things that should arouse new questions in your mind.

Didn't you say that you were and endomorph?

Read bro!

Let me make you happy.

You're right I'm wrong. End of conversation.


>>>> I read . Just because Macro said it wouldn't work for him with my diet , so what ? My metabolism is probably different than his , we are all different .
I am paranoid about being an endo :) , but I am pretty sure that the truth is that I am an endo-mesomorph.


Victor
 
HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex said:
Both of those are certainly relevent factors,particularly if no anabolics are used.Cortisol will definitely be something to watch out for,as sub-cal/stress are wonderful catalysts for its release(can you say achy joints?).This is where something like anavar,winstrol or fina(which all modulate the gluccocoticoid system)would be HIGHLY beneficial,and another reason why so many folks prefer them during cutting cycles.

Would this be a safe conclusion?

For a yes or no answer on this topic, it would be yes, in the presence of AAS, but very difficult to do.

Also, for the people who are natural, it would not be recomended due to the many catabolic factors involved.

Thanks for your input Fonz. Definitely not overlooked and very much appreciated. I'll hit you with the Karma when the system let's me.
 
Fonz said:
Personally, if I couldn't meet my caloric requirements due to whatever cause and still wanted to grow i would use:

Tren 75mg ED/Winstrol 50mg ED(or EOD)/Anavar 50mg ED

Winstrol, Trenbolone, and Anavar are the best AAS at increasing Nitrogen retention, and therfore letting you gain muscle even at hypocaloric diets.
Of course, like Huck said eating enough protein is totally essential. No protein = no nitrogen.

Hey Fonz,

1)Fonz, unlike Huck, I'm far from being endomorph. I'm more like a hardgainer, not exactly even an ectomorph because I loose fat easily but also gain easily. I feel I have somewhat a bodytype like yours. What macro nutrients profile would you follow if you would wanted to pack some lbm on a hypo caloric diet ? I'm thinking about 60% protein, 20%fat, 20% carbs. Nitrogen should be plenty with 60% of calories coming from protein, and since I'm on Fina, even on 20% of carbs consumtions workouts should still be productive. What do you think?

2) You didn't add prop to the tren, var combo, i guess adding 100mg of prop EOD wouldn't hurt would it?

Thanks (karma your way)
 
junk said:
Hey Fonz,

1)Fonz, unlike Huck, I'm far from being endomorph. I'm more like a hardgainer, not exactly even an ectomorph because I loose fat easily but also gain easily. I feel I have somewhat a bodytype like yours. What macro nutrients profile would you follow if you would wanted to pack some lbm on a hypo caloric diet ? I'm thinking about 60% protein, 20%fat, 20% carbs. Nitrogen should be plenty with 60% of calories coming from protein, and since I'm on Fina, even on 20% of carbs consumtions workouts should still be productive. What do you think?

2) You didn't add prop to the tren, var combo, i guess adding 100mg of prop EOD wouldn't hurt would it?

Thanks (karma your way)

Lowest fat% you can go is 15% of overral calories to get your necessary EFA's. Remember(You already pointed this out) is to eat as much protein as possible BUT, and here's what we'ver forgotten.

1. Some proteins are more bio-available than others regarding nitrogen retention.

Whey would be a 1.0. meat about 0.82 etc.... So, 300g protein isn't 300g nitrogen, it's a bit less. Probably around 240-260g for us since we drink a lot of protein shakes. The rest of the nitrogen gets excreted. So, if you want MAXIMAL results aim to get your protein that has extremely high bio-availability.....0.9+/1.0

I'd also go with Huck's recommedation of 65% Protein....with about 15% fat and 20% carbs(Anyhting less than 20% carbs and you're basically keto).

And also, use those 20% carbs ENTIRELY for your post workout shake.

You can use prop, not a problem. It'll probably enhanve your results. I just can't stand the pain of injecting it.

One other thing, during the first week or so, your body will be overwhelmed by the massive protein intake, and you'll probably lose half of it taking dumps throughout the day. So increment your protein intake gradually over the course of 2 weeks until you get to your desired protein intake. That should let your body adapt to the change in diet.
 
Fonz said:
1. Some proteins are more bio-available than others regarding nitrogen retention.
Whey would be a 1.0. meat about 0.82 etc.... So, 300g protein isn't 300g nitrogen, it's a bit less. Probably around 240-260g for us since we drink a lot of protein shakes. The rest of the nitrogen gets excreted. So, if you want MAXIMAL results aim to get your protein that has extremely high bio-availability.....0.9+/1.0

One other thing, during the first week or so, your body will be overwhelmed by the massive protein intake, and you'll probably lose half of it taking dumps throughout the day. So increment your protein intake gradually over the course of 2 weeks until you get to your desired protein intake. That should let your body adapt to the change in diet.

Excellent points that should not be overlooked.

Thanks Fonz
 
I think you have to look at muscle gain on a 24hr basis. Say you have a period of hypertrophy perhaps whilst you are asleep. Then in the morning you do some cardio burn an amount of fat which may continue for sometime depending what you eat. Then perhaps you might have a postive energy + nitrogen balance later in the day conducive to muscle growth. So al in all you built muscle and lost fat in the same day even if it is on a a very small scale...
The degree to which this is a successfull process relies heavily on genetics - number 1. Also how clever you have managed you diet and training to acheive this purpose.

So I think muscle gain and fat loss can be acheived at the same time even though this is probably not the optimal way of doing things.......
 
Muscle gain and fat loss? totally doable.

Strict C.K.D with refeeds and training schedule a la Body Opus. The addition of the appropriate supplementation is a good notch up, of course.
 
Fonz said:
Lowest fat% you can go is 15% of overral calories to get your necessary EFA's. Remember(You already pointed this out) is to eat as much protein as possible BUT, and here's what we'ver forgotten.

1. Some proteins are more bio-available than others regarding nitrogen retention.

Whey would be a 1.0. meat about 0.82 etc.... So, 300g protein isn't 300g nitrogen, it's a bit less. Probably around 240-260g for us since we drink a lot of protein shakes. The rest of the nitrogen gets excreted. So, if you want MAXIMAL results aim to get your protein that has extremely high bio-availability.....0.9+/1.0

I'd also go with Huck's recommedation of 65% Protein....with about 15% fat and 20% carbs(Anyhting less than 20% carbs and you're basically keto).

And also, use those 20% carbs ENTIRELY for your post workout shake.

You can use prop, not a problem. It'll probably enhanve your results. I just can't stand the pain of injecting it.

One other thing, during the first week or so, your body will be overwhelmed by the massive protein intake, and you'll probably lose half of it taking dumps throughout the day. So increment your protein intake gradually over the course of 2 weeks until you get to your desired protein intake. That should let your body adapt to the change in diet.


Thanks Fonz, very sound advice. Yes, in order to increase nitrogen when I diet I try getting my 65% of protein almost exclusively from whey. drinking a whey shake 90% whey 10% casein (even if it's just a small one) every 2 hours will probably keep blood aminos and nitrogen at it's highest.
 
this is the best stack that i have ever ran. you get great vasularity your as hard as a mortar brick and your mind stay's sane.. and its very very very anti-catabolic.
 
georgie24 said:
this is the best stack that i have ever ran. you get great vasularity your as hard as a mortar brick and your mind stay's sane.. and its very very very anti-catabolic.


Yeah , I am going on a 18 weeks cycle , first 7 weeks will be BULK then 11 weeks cuttting . On the bulking phase I will use HGH , SUST , EQ and PRIMO because I want a very CLEAN BULK . I will look pretty LEAN even when bulking . Then I will switch to prop , and a mix fina , win , var and masteron , oh and also the HGH . This is gonna be some hardocore shit :)


Victor
 
im looking to add hgh to the mix as well. but right now im more than happy with the results. i think i gotta use a lil bit of npp just to get my shoulders mobile again.
 
georgie24 said:
im looking to add hgh to the mix as well. but right now im more than happy with the results. i think i gotta use a lil bit of npp just to get my shoulders mobile again.


>> HGH is the shit man , if you can afford it , go for it .


Victor
 
While were on the subject, I've got a question for Huck.

I've seen several posts about trens abilities to burn fat, and give muscle gains at the same time. It seems substantially more pronounced with this drug than any other.

Why is tren so special in this regard?
 
psychedout said:
While were on the subject, I've got a question for Huck.

I've seen several posts about trens abilities to burn fat, and give muscle gains at the same time. It seems substantially more pronounced with this drug than any other.

Why is tren so special in this regard?


>> Good question , I will soon run tren and I would like to know about this


Victor
 
psychedout said:
Why is tren so special in this regard?

One possible mechanism responsible for the ability of Trebolone to stimulate skeletal muscle hypertrophy in conjunction with lipolysis is an enhanced proliferation (an increase in cell number) and differentiation (a conversion to muscle specific nuclei) of satellite cells as a result of the increased sensitivity of these cells to IGF-I (insulin like growth factor) and FGF (fibroblast growth factor).
 
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I have long had a theory that tren may mediate prostaglandin F2 alpha populations into action.PGF2a is the most thermogenic substance in the human body.This may possibly be the reason behind the profuse sweating and lipolytic effects.The anabolic routes are fairly well established,it binds the A/R several more times effectively than testosterone,and even nandrolone(which is a potent A/R binder in its own right).Then,you have an almost unmatched anti-catabolic effect(through gluccocorticoidal system modification).Combine the two and that makes for an EXTREMELY potent anabolic.
 
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Huck, I have heard speculation that tren may possibly permanently mangle cortisol receptors.

Is such an event even possible?
 
I haven't seen any documentation to lead towards permanent cortisol receptor modulation,but with heavy extended use that might become a possibility since we're dealing with suppression of glucocorticoidal(preceding) hormones.I would say to keep use limited in duration to if this is a concern.
 
HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex said:
I haven't seen any documentation to lead towards permanent cortisol receptor modulation,but with heavy extended use that might become a possibility since we're dealing with suppression of glucocorticoidal(preceding) hormones.I would say to keep use limited in duration to if this is a concern.

Thanks huck.

Parden my dumbness, but suppose such an event did take place, what would be bad about suppression of glucocorticoidal hormones?
 
psychedout said:
Thanks huck.

Parden my dumbness, but suppose such an event did take place, what would be bad about suppression of glucocorticoidal hormones?

They are joint protective.Corticosteroid hormones regulate synovial fluid release.You do NOT want to wipe them out,or even severely depress them for extended periods,as that is begging for tendon/joint injuries and problems.Suppression over a short period is fine,but long term,severe suppression could be quite disastrous in terms of physical functionality.
 
VictorBR said:
Yep , it is very controversial and I am here to prove my point :)


Victor


A while back I started a thread simular to this topic. A lot of guys on here reported that with the use of AAS they were able to gain mass while losing body fat. Their protien intake was very high.
 
I started a very mild run of test cyp about 4 weeks ago to bring my testosterone levels up higher.

However, I didn't try to bulk up. I at fairly clean and less than maintenance caloric intake. My belly has lost and inch and My chest has gained two, while actually getting tighter. The fat that was there is almost gone. So, that's my experience thus far.
 
Right now im eating 400-450 grams of protien at a weight of 198, along with 250 clean carbs and 75 grams of healthy fats.

I'm gaining muslce only. Zero fat gains to speak of after three weeks of this. (anabolics are involved)
 
Yes you can grow. I'm only taking around 2500cals a day with only 120grams of carbs and I was able to shed fat, water and gain 12lbs of muscle. And I've only been on cycle for 8 weeks. Still got another 8 to go!
 
I think it really depends on your size, if you are a very advanced bodybuilder, ie NPC level, there is no way you can do both. At that point it takes so much to be able to add any mass, that there is no way you can do it while losing bf. And while I am not that size, I know by experience that there is no way I can do both
 
hhmm im gonna agree with victor here. after a few weeks on primo/winny on a ckd im stunned at my progress thus far. when my girl measured my bicep and quads she almost shit herself
 
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