Fructose, Dairy and SUgar substitutes.....

[Smokescreen]

1) fruits are calorically sparse & nutritionally dense. not mentally dense like folks who tell others to avoid them.
that's not true at all - 1 apple has 125 calories (large) and 32 grams of carbs from fructose

2) fruits are an effective default fiber & water source. you will shit better & function better.
true to a small degree, you can get natural fiber from husk without all the empty calories

3) fruits have small amounts of fructose per serving (4-7g). this is perfect for preserving liver glycogen & indirectly, skeletal muscle glycogen status. muscle glycogen is better replenished when small amounts of fructose are present in the postW mix.
yes, 1 strawberry, eat 10 of them and it adds up. Fructose does NOT "preserve" liver glycogen, for it actually is STORED as liver glycogen. Whoever wrote this has NO CLUE of the difference between a fed-state and a ketogenic state. In a fed state, which most people are in, fructose will not help you it will only hinder your progress.

4) a liver lacking glyco-replenishment = multiple catabolic signalling cascades = compromised gains in skeletal muscle. fructose facilitates "fed state" signals to the brain. too complex to get into right now, but this is a good thing.
yes it's too complex because it's stated WRONG. The liver needs liver glycogen to help T4->T3 conversion and leptin (hormone that tells you that you're full) levels; however, it only needs 50 grams of glucose to do the job - while only holding 150grams total. As fructose is 4x more likely to be store as fat and in the liver, you will see great fat gains by stuffing your face with fruit

5) fruits contain system & recovery-enhancing phytonutrients & antioxidant factors not present in any other food species.
that's idiotic; vitamin C and iron are what's most commonly contributed to fruits ability to help you recover - can be purchased for $4.99 at a local supermarket. Even then, 10 grams of glutamine will do 10x more for recovery then Vit C.

6) there is not a solitary shred of science indicating ill effects on health, body composition, or physical performance as a result of eating fruit. some of the leanest, longest-living populations on the planet earth eat fruit daily.
and? no one said it has a "bad" effect, what is being said is that for a bodybuilder to eat calories that are empty and cause 4x greater possible of fat gain is ludicrous

7) it would take the consumption of a truck bed of fruits to ingest amounts of fructose associated with negative metabolic effects seen in forcefed rats. the funny thing about this is, fruit is one of the rare foods in nature that you can actually fill yourself up with, & still not tip the balance of risk versus benefit.
eat 10 apples a day, 1200 calories from fruit, 320 grams of carbs (fructose) with your regular diet and talk to me in 4 weeks when you're 10 lbs. fatter

8) fruit avoidance just plain makes no damn sense whatsoever -- but then again, how many idiotic bodybuilding myths do you know of that do?
yes, this guy is a true genius in his own mind

No one said fruit will kill you; what's being said is it does not have nutritional benefit when used in conjunction to a low-GI/high-protein/moderate fat/high-nutrition (supplementation) bodybuilder/fitness diet. That's the topic at hand. Why eat something that will make you gain bodyfat at a higher rate then other carbs in your diet. There is absolutely to evidence that one cannot live without fruit. In fact, I know many people that do it all the time - i.e. me as an example. Stuff your face with fruits and you'll see the real "gain" you will have from it.

Think of it this way, why are people screaming that High-fructose corn syrup is the major cause of US obesity - read the name of the product and that's all you need.

Mr.X

Ok so what are you saying then? That ALL fruits should be avoided at all costs at all times? Regardless wether cutting or bulking? Because I do consume a small apple a day. And usually at around 6pm. So is what I'm doing wrong???

 

[Mr.X]

Ok so what are you saying then? That ALL fruits should be avoided at all costs at all times? Regardless wether cutting or bulking? Because I do consume a small apple a day. And usually at around 6pm. So is what I'm doing wrong???

I think saying that avoiding fruit no matter what would make the "fruit gurus" mad, but I'll go as far as saying: yes, they are unwanted calories. Instead of the apple, drink a protein shake with some healthy UDOs choice oil - from what I remember you're cutting. 30 grams protein = 120 calories, 1 tbsp. UDOs 130 cal = total calories 250, but you got a great night time slow-release protein in your system.

Mr.X

 

[Smokescreen]

I think saying that avoiding fruit no matter what would make the "fruit gurus" mad, but I'll go as far as saying: yes, they are unwanted calories. Instead of the apple, drink a protein shake with some healthy UDOs choice oil - from what I remember you're cutting. 30 grams protein = 120 calories, 1 tbsp. UDOs 130 cal = total calories 250, but you got a great night time slow-release protein in your system.

Mr.X

But I do take protein shake like what you said. And I take it before going to sleep. But fruits? Poor little ol' fruits. Never again???? But...but....what will I eat? I like to eat at least an apple once a day. So...no more apples?????

 

[Joe Stenson]

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=102126

A good liver glycogen level is anabolic and promotes growth since the body is less likely to believe it is starving to death.

AND, my dairy is dry curd cottage cheese.............05g of fat, 1 sugar and 20g of protein/serving...........still off limits?

You're like 7-8% year round, aren't you? Shouldn't that tell you something?

I hate to say it, but Mr. X is being way too anal. Can I think of other foods that may provide more of a benefit than a piece of fruit? Perhaps. Is consuming fruit in your diet regularly going to make it impossible for you to get really lean? Of course not.

I don't eat much fruit because I can think of things just as good for me that taste a lot better...I don't care for the taste of most fruits, never have. Does that mean I'd be shooting myself in the foot if I decided to start incorporating fruit into my diet? Of course not. Use some common sense people.

 

[UA_Iron]

You're like 7-8% year round, aren't you? Shouldn't that tell you something?

I hate to say it, but Mr. X is being way too anal. Can I think of other foods that may provide more of a benefit than a piece of fruit? Perhaps. Is consuming fruit in your diet regularly going to make it impossible for you to get really lean? Of course not.

I don't eat much fruit because I can think of things just as good for me that taste a lot better...I don't care for the taste of most fruits, never have. Does that mean I'd be shooting myself in the foot if I decided to start incorporating fruit into my diet? Of course not. Use some common sense people.

he didnt say it was impossible to do with fruits etc. But there's an optimization factor - its easier with out them.

*puts down the carne asada burrito*

 

[Smokescreen]

Found this...

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/issa14.htm

 

[Smokescreen]

BTW...I know what replenish muscle glycogen means and what it does.

But what is to replenish liver glycogen??? What does this mean? What does it do?

 

[Joe Stenson]

he didnt say it was impossible to do with fruits etc. But there's an optimization factor - its easier with out them.

It really depends where you're drawing the line. To me, it sounds like he's saying don't eat fruit at all. It's not like I'm recommending 10 bananas/day or something, but if someone wants a banana he really shouldn't be sweating it. Like I said, I don't eat it anyway so it's moot to me, but I think people tend to overanalyze diet.

When you're trying to get into contest shape, maybe you need to try some of the "bodybuilding nutrition tricks" to get there, but for your average gym rat it's really just all cals in vs. cals out.

 

[Smokescreen]

It really depends where you're drawing the line. To me, it sounds like he's saying don't eat fruit at all. It's not like I'm recommending 10 bananas/day or something, but if someone wants a banana he really shouldn't be sweating it. Like I said, I don't eat it anyway so it's moot to me, but I think people tend to overanalyze diet.

When you're trying to get into contest shape, maybe you need to try some of the "bodybuilding nutrition tricks" to get there, but for your average gym rat it's really just all cals in vs. cals out.

You have a good point there. K!

 

[mongogerry1]

I think saying that avoiding fruit no matter what would make the "fruit gurus" mad, but I'll go as far as saying: yes, they are unwanted calories. Instead of the apple, drink a protein shake with some healthy UDOs choice oil - from what I remember you're cutting. 30 grams protein = 120 calories, 1 tbsp. UDOs 130 cal = total calories 250, but you got a great night time slow-release protein in your system.

Mr.X

I am very new to this but this is very informative for me. I love posts like this where people hash it out. My question is what about first thing in the morning when liver glycogen is low. I regularly have a piece of fruit, usually a banana, and 30 gram shake as soon as i open my eyes? I was under the impression that if i did not restore these levels that they would be pulled from muscle proteins? Should i still restore these levels but with glucose?