Fructose, Dairy and SUgar substitutes.....

[Mr.X]

I hate to say it, but Mr. X is being way too anal. Can I think of other foods that may provide more of a benefit than a piece of fruit? Perhaps. Is consuming fruit in your diet regularly going to make it impossible for you to get really lean? Of course not.
you didn't read my post, go read it again - I said that fruit consumption is not needed (didn't say it will make you die or make you 500lbs. either) - will constant daily fruit consumption hinder fat loss: yes it will. 5 larges apples a day can translate to 600 calories, almost 150 grams of fructose. 1 small apple a day: sure, but why waste the calories on an empty product that full of fructose when you can put those calories to better use. No one is being anal, I am being logical

I don't eat much fruit because I can think of things just as good for me that taste a lot better...I don't care for the taste of most fruits, never have. Does that mean I'd be shooting myself in the foot if I decided to start incorporating fruit into my diet? Of course not. Use some common sense people.

who knows? I don't know your diet, put a fruit into a Ketogenic diet and you will be shooting yourself in the foot. The point is that there are other places in the diet regiment that can be filled with the calories you would waste on fruit. Think higher quality proteins, low-GI carbs and healthy oils

Mr.X

 

[Mr.X]

he didnt say it was impossible to do with fruits etc. But there's an optimization factor - its easier with out them.

*puts down the carne asada burrito*

right, we use logic and dietary optimization for maximum results. Sure, one can try calories in vs. calories out, but does 2000 calories of brown sugar = 2000 calories of lean chicken breast - what's the difference on your body? see what I mean.

Mr.X

 

[Mr.X]

But what is to replenish liver glycogen??? What does this mean? What does it do?

helps T4->T3 conversion as well as leptin levels - refer to my other post for definition of leptin

 

[Mr.X]

It really depends where you're drawing the line. To me, it sounds like he's saying don't eat fruit at all. It's not like I'm recommending 10 bananas/day or something, but if someone wants a banana he really shouldn't be sweating it. Like I said, I don't eat it anyway so it's moot to me, but I think people tend to overanalyze diet.

right, people that WANT OPTIMIZED results overanalyze their diet, for 70% of what you look like is your diet. Yes, I am saying fruits are WASTED calories. I don't think anyone in their right mind would recommend such a high fruit intake, and no one implied that you did, but recommending daily fruit intake to a bodybuilder that's trying to lean out is idiotic. In addition, fruits are empty calories loaded with fructose, why not use that caloric intake for a more optimized food? (lean protein/oatmeal/flax) that's what a REAL diet is, optimization of micro and macro nutrients. People want results and people want them fast, to get proper results your diet needs to be dialed in, part of dialing in is cutting out unnecessary caloric intake and what we call in the dieting world "empty calories" - i.e. fruits as an example

When you're trying to get into contest shape, maybe you need to try some of the "bodybuilding nutrition tricks" to get there, but for your average gym rat it's really just all cals in vs. cals out.
I think for bulking and cutting (either of which our members are usually into) empty calories will just create less results - especially for cutting. Yes, in a cutting regiment fruits should not be eaten, but in a bulking regiments fruits should not play any major role either. Will eating 1 banana per day kill you? NO. Will it be wasted calories? yes. You want optimal gains or fat-loss, concentrate on a high-protein/low-gi carb (mod)/healthy (mod) fat diet. Either way, there are much better sources of carbohydrates out there that can be utilized by a bodybuilder - think oatmeal.

As a note, the average joe in the gym looks like shit, so we are not talking about average gym joes here. We are talking about bodybuilding and fitness lifestyles that are based on hard work, optimization and smarts

Mr.X

 

[Mr.X]

I am very new to this but this is very informative for me. I love posts like this where people hash it out. My question is what about first thing in the morning when liver glycogen is low. I regularly have a piece of fruit, usually a banana, and 30 gram shake as soon as i open my eyes? I was under the impression that if i did not restore these levels that they would be pulled from muscle proteins? Should i still restore these levels but with glucose?

liver glycogen can be replenished with glucose; thus, eating oatmeal or yams can accomplish about the same results. Granted not as fast, but most dieters would benefit from a semi-ketogenic state, so by eliminating your fructose intake you will be in ketosis post training/cardio. If you're dieting, stick to the 50%protein/20%carbs/30% fat ratio, weight x 12 = BMR. You can shave 5% off BMR to get the fat-loss started but don't go below -10% BMR if you are new to dieting.

Mr.X

 

[Mr.X]

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Jun;89(6):2963-72.

b]Dietary fructose reduces circulating insulin and leptin, attenuates postprandial suppression of ghrelin, and increases triglycerides in women.[/b]

Teff KL, Elliott SS, Tschop M, Kieffer TJ, Rader D, Heiman M, Townsend RR, Keim NL, D'Alessio D, Havel PJ.

Monell Chemical Senses Center, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia 19104, USA.

Previous studies indicate that leptin secretion is regulated by insulin-mediated glucose metabolism. Because fructose, unlike glucose, does not stimulate insulin secretion, we hypothesized that meals high in fructose would result in lower leptin concentrations than meals containing the same amount of glucose. Blood samples were collected every 30-60 min for 24 h from 12 normal-weight women on 2 randomized days during which the subjects consumed three meals containing 55, 30, and 15% of total kilocalories as carbohydrate, fat, and protein, respectively, with 30% of kilocalories as either a fructose-sweetened [high fructose (HFr)] or glucose-sweetened [high glucose (HGl)] beverage. Meals were isocaloric in the two treatments. Postprandial glycemic excursions were reduced by 66 +/- 12%, and insulin responses were 65 +/- 5% lower (both P < 0.001) during HFr consumption. The area under the curve for leptin during the first 12 h (-33 +/- 7%; P < 0.005), the entire 24 h (-21 +/- 8%; P < 0.02), and the diurnal amplitude (peak - nadir) (24 +/- 6%; P < 0.0025) were reduced on the HFr day compared with the HGl day. In addition, circulating levels of the orexigenic gastroenteric hormone, ghrelin, were suppressed by approximately 30% 1-2 h after ingestion of each HGl meal (P < 0.01), but postprandial suppression of ghrelin was significantly less pronounced after HFr meals (P < 0.05 vs. HGl). Consumption of HFr meals produced a rapid and prolonged elevation of plasma triglycerides compared with the HGl day (P < 0.005). Because insulin and leptin, and possibly ghrelin, function as key signals to the central nervous system in the long-term regulation of energy balance, decreases of circulating insulin and leptin and increased ghrelin concentrations, as demonstrated in this study, could lead to increased caloric intake and ultimately contribute to weight gain and obesity during chronic consumption of diets high in fructose.

 

[Joe Stenson]

right, we use logic and dietary optimization for maximum results. Sure, one can try calories in vs. calories out, but does 2000 calories of brown sugar = 2000 calories of lean chicken breast - what's the difference on your body? see what I mean.

I understand the point of your example, but let's consider something less extreme. Still dealing with a 2000 calorie diet, given adequate protein (let's say 1-1.5g per lb bodyweight) and enough EFAs, what's the difference (besides bigger swings in energy and satiety issues) between getting the rest of your calories from something like brown sugar vs. oats?

The only benefit to eating the oats is what I touched on. They will do a better job of controlling appetite, which is one of the major factors one must consider when planning a diet. And they will also provide more stable energy levels throughout the day. Other than that, not much difference.

right, people that WANT OPTIMIZED results overanalyze their diet, for 70% of what you look like is your diet. Yes, I am saying fruits are WASTED calories. I don't think anyone in their right mind would recommend such a high fruit intake, and no one implied that you did, but recommending daily fruit intake to a bodybuilder that's trying to lean out is idiotic. In addition, fruits are empty calories loaded with fructose, why not use that caloric intake for a more optimized food? (lean protein/oatmeal/flax) that's what a REAL diet is, optimization of micro and macro nutrients. People want results and people want them fast, to get proper results your diet needs to be dialed in, part of dialing in is cutting out unnecessary caloric intake and what we call in the dieting world "empty calories" - i.e. fruits as an example

I think for bulking and cutting (either of which our members are usually into) empty calories will just create less results - especially for cutting. Yes, in a cutting regiment fruits should not be eaten, but in a bulking regiments fruits should not play any major role either. Will eating 1 banana per day kill you? NO. Will it be wasted calories? yes. You want optimal gains or fat-loss, concentrate on a high-protein/low-gi carb (mod)/healthy (mod) fat diet. Either way, there are much better sources of carbohydrates out there that can be utilized by a bodybuilder - think oatmeal.

If you're dieting, stick to the 50%protein/20%carbs/30% fat ratio, weight x 12 = BMR. You can shave 5% off BMR to get the fat-loss started but don't go below -10% BMR if you are new to dieting.

You and I clearly have different ideas of what constitutes "optimal" dieting, and that's fine. There's many ways to skin a cat.

The fact that you're even discussion ratios at all means we're really nowhere near the same page (at least I'm not getting that impression). I'm more of a carb/calorie cycling type of guy (think UD2, PSMF, Twin Peak's carb cycling, etc.)

 

[Mr.X]

I understand the point of your example, but let's consider something less extreme. Still dealing with a 2000 calorie diet, given adequate protein (let's say 1-1.5g per lb bodyweight) and enough EFAs, what's the difference (besides bigger swings in energy and satiety issues) between getting the rest of your calories from something like brown sugar vs. oats?

The only benefit to eating the oats is what I touched on. They will do a better job of controlling appetite, which is one of the major factors one must consider when planning a diet. And they will also provide more stable energy levels throughout the day. Other than that, not much difference.

if you think there is no difference between eating oats and brown sugar then I have nothing to say to you - I don't think this is worth the conversation if you can't understand with common sense the difference
also, I meant to say table sugar



You and I clearly have different ideas of what constitutes "optimal" dieting, and that's fine. There's many ways to skin a cat.
sure, whatever you say

The fact that you're even discussion ratios at all means we're really nowhere near the same page (at least I'm not getting that impression). I'm more of a carb/calorie cycling type of guy (think UD2, PSMF, Twin Peak's carb cycling, etc.)
you can cycle calories and carbs, hell I wrote the manual on it...but in the end of the day, wasted caloric intake is just that, wasted.

We are not on the same page for one reason: I have worked with 100s of clients in the past and I speak not only with a scientific basis but also with hands on experience with a variety of people.

Mr.X

 

[borg4902]

Lets out this spin on it, say we are dealing with a person that has a super high metabolism. He wants to stay away from the crappy fast foods and concentrate on a generally healthy diet. It is very hard for him to gain. He try's to eat the major body building basics but is getting know where but really full in a hurry. Shouldnt this person choose fruit over say ice cream and sugar snacks, or is it just as bad. Some people like Jkurtz have a advanced metabolism. I agree with the completely wasted calorie factor, which is basically why I dont drink, but I also have the matabolism of Don Vito. I am not by any means trying to contradict here, but for these hard gainers cant fruit be used as a decent source of surplus cals that dont fill your stomach like oats and brown rice does, hence being part of a body building diet? Im sure many pro's have fruit. I know Cutler does when he is cutting even. Yes, we can debate over the drug doses and thats why they can eat it. Well there are plenty here on advanced drug doses as well. I absolutly understand what your saying, EMPTY WORTHLESS CALS. Thats the point he is trying to make here people if you have trouble gaining I certainally wouldnt go home and throw all my fruits out of the fridge but if weight loss is your goal, get rid of it!

 

[JKurz1]

I understand the point of your example, but let's consider something less extreme. Still dealing with a 2000 calorie diet, given adequate protein (let's say 1-1.5g per lb bodyweight) and enough EFAs, what's the difference (besides bigger swings in energy and satiety issues) between getting the rest of your calories from something like brown sugar vs. oats?

The only benefit to eating the oats is what I touched on. They will do a better job of controlling appetite, which is one of the major factors one must consider when planning a diet. And they will also provide more stable energy levels throughout the day. Other than that, not much difference.

if you think there is no difference between eating oats and brown sugar then I have nothing to say to you - I don't think this is worth the conversation if you can't understand with common sense the difference
also, I meant to say table sugar



You and I clearly have different ideas of what constitutes "optimal" dieting, and that's fine. There's many ways to skin a cat.
sure, whatever you say

The fact that you're even discussion ratios at all means we're really nowhere near the same page (at least I'm not getting that impression). I'm more of a carb/calorie cycling type of guy (think UD2, PSMF, Twin Peak's carb cycling, etc.)
you can cycle calories and carbs, hell I wrote the manual on it...but in the end of the day, wasted caloric intake is just that, wasted.

We are not on the same page for one reason: I have worked with 100s of clients in the past and I speak not only with a scientific basis but also with hands on experience with a variety of people.

Mr.X

Mr.X - Chill the fuck out. Who ever said they were eating a bushels of aples a day???????? Christ. You've always slammed fruits and for the wrong reasons. The postive effects and nutrients loaded in apples, bananas and berries far outweigh any potential negatives IMHO. I'm talking an apple, a few berries, maybe a banana.......

Carth - you and I are both sub 10%......AND WE EAT FRUITS DAILY. MrX is, well, no one really knows.