For proponents of short, intense workouts - uh huh, sure

[The Shadow]

Steel....you can train long or hard - you cannot do both

For example

I do deads
gms
pullthrus
abs
and rev hypers in uner an hour


upper body day is even quicker

8 sets of speed bench
floor press
a tri movement
back movement
shoulders...


45 minutes tops

 

[MS]

"Come on, let's hear some routines, and not only routines, but HOW they are accomplished."

I'll leave the HOW up to you. I'll tell you what I'm doing right now, as long as you understand that it changes regularly!

Total body workout 3-4 days per week.

On HEAVY weeks (like today) I do 2 working sets of 5 reps for each of the following: (Monday and Friday this week)

Squats super set with SLDL
Bench superset with chins
Shoulder presses
Bicep easy curls superset with tricep presses
Standing calf raises superset with overhead cable crunches

On alternate days (Sunday and Tuesday next week) I'll do:
hack squats with hamstring curls
Dips with bent rows
Upright rows
DB bicep curls with skullcrushers
Donkey raises with leg lifts

I aim to come close to failure sometime in the second week of this program, then I lighten up for 3-4 weeks in a similar pattern of exercises (higher reps/lighter weights). The key is to add a *little* bit of weight each time I do the exercise.....even if it's only a kilo on my squats. Then back off and start again in a few weeks with a little bit more. I'm sure I don't need to go into details on how to periodize-you know all of that. Truly effective natty bodybuilding is a game of patience (don't be in a hurry) and being methodical rather than going in their and training intuitively or 'balls to the wall' each and every session. There is still plenty of room for intuitive training in some of my non-periodized phases, but you asked for specifics.

Let me put it another way-in my experience, intuitive training is not as effective when you're on a competition diet compared to other times. Your intuition, objectivity and other important facilities are often impaired. But everyone is different!

 

[SteelWeaver]

Heeeeyyy! Thank you!!! I can't believe it - a routine out of MS! (marking day in calender for posterity)

But it doesn't help me Neither does Cornholio's.

I've seen a million routines like these. I just can't see how one could walk out of the gym feeling like one had worked legs (or whatever) to the max doing just 2 sets of each. What kind of cadence are you using? When do you stop the set? How many more reps do you think you could accomplish IF you were going for failure? Like, what % of your max is that? How hard do you fight, say, on bicep curls for the last rep. Are you standing there with the bar stuck at halfway, straining for 10 secs until it sloooowly slooowly finally comes up, then squeeze at the top? Or are you still moving smoothly fairly easily through a complete ROM? Say, when squatting, during the move are you thinking about each muscle, each fibre, FEELING it squeeze, knowing when the next one is going to kick in, depending on where you are in the ROM, preparing for that?

This is what I mean when I say HOW. I focus completely on all the parts of my body that I know are actively involved in the move, and keep the indirect ones in the edges of my consciousness, picture the muscle contract, picture it pulling on the bone, sometimes even feel/imagine CP breaking up to make ATP, like little explosions, ha ha .... naturally this gets harder when you're on the second drop set and there's fire everywhere, but just exactly how much more intense can one get???? (OK, wait - I'm not thinking about all this stuff to the detriment of the set - it's not really "thinking", more "seeing"/feeling, knowing ...)

It's HOW you do it that's key. Someone can say, yeah, I did a 20-rep squat set, and feel nothing, but someone else can say, yeah, 20-rep squats, and they'll be DEAD on the floor, puking out their guts.

Mm, intuitive training on a comp. diet - yeah - I seldom "intuitively" allow myself to do less - at most a set or two on days I'm completely absolutely whacked out, but I know the diet screws with one's ability to perceive relative exhaustion.

BTW, MS, there's a chicky on the "hi" thread with some hormonal problems - thought you might be interested if you haven't checked it out yet.

 

[The Shadow]

Heeeeyyy! Thank you!!! I can't believe it - a routine out of MS! (marking day in calender for posterity)

But it doesn't help me Neither does Cornholio's.

I've seen a million routines like these. I just can't see how one could walk out of the gym feeling like one had worked legs (or whatever) to the max doing just 2 sets of each.

Failure is failure - why damage the wood by repeatedly beating it with a hammer?

 

[MS]

Who me??? I do not train to failure. I sometimes get very close, but really, really rarely. My tendons fail before my muscles, so concentric muscle failure too often just sets me back. This may not (yet) apply to you, but the point is, you don't NEED to train to failure to stimulate an increase in muscle tissue. Where's W6???

"This is what I mean when I say HOW. I focus completely on all the parts of my body that I know are actively involved in the move, and keep the indirect ones in the edges of my consciousness, picture the muscle contract, picture it pulling on the bone, sometimes even feel/imagine CP breaking up to make ATP, like little explosions, ha ha .... naturally this gets harder when you're on the second drop set and there's fire everywhere, but just exactly how much more intense can one get???? "

That sounds all nice and meditative and stuff, but has nothing to do with hypertrophy. You have to decide if your purpose for weight training is to become "one" with your individual myofibers by damaging each and every one of them (a spiritual exercise), or to increase your muscle mass through planned progression (a purely physiological response to lifting the damn weight). No one can tell you HOW to contract your muscles, they can only correct your form and draw you a lifting plan. Perhaps if they slap some EMG gear on ya they could even guide you a little better. But ultimately YOU have to move the weight as best you 'know' how.

 

[scruples]

Heeeeyyy! Thank you!!! I can't believe it - a routine out of MS! (marking day in calender for posterity)

But it doesn't help me Neither does Cornholio's.

I've seen a million routines like these. I just can't see how one could walk out of the gym feeling like one had worked legs (or whatever) to the max doing just 2 sets of each. What kind of cadence are you using? When do you stop the set? How many more reps do you think you could accomplish IF you were going for failure? Like, what % of your max is that? How hard do you fight, say, on bicep curls for the last rep. Are you standing there with the bar stuck at halfway, straining for 10 secs until it sloooowly slooowly finally comes up, then squeeze at the top? Or are you still moving smoothly fairly easily through a complete ROM? Say, when squatting, during the move are you thinking about each muscle, each fibre, FEELING it squeeze, knowing when the next one is going to kick in, depending on where you are in the ROM, preparing for that?

This is what I mean when I say HOW. I focus completely on all the parts of my body that I know are actively involved in the move, and keep the indirect ones in the edges of my consciousness, picture the muscle contract, picture it pulling on the bone, sometimes even feel/imagine CP breaking up to make ATP, like little explosions, ha ha .... naturally this gets harder when you're on the second drop set and there's fire everywhere, but just exactly how much more intense can one get???? (OK, wait - I'm not thinking about all this stuff to the detriment of the set - it's not really "thinking", more "seeing"/feeling, knowing ...)

It's HOW you do it that's key. Someone can say, yeah, I did a 20-rep squat set, and feel nothing, but someone else can say, yeah, 20-rep squats, and they'll be DEAD on the floor, puking out their guts.

Mm, intuitive training on a comp. diet - yeah - I seldom "intuitively" allow myself to do less - at most a set or two on days I'm completely absolutely whacked out, but I know the diet screws with one's ability to perceive relative exhaustion.

BTW, MS, there's a chicky on the "hi" thread with some hormonal problems - thought you might be interested if you haven't checked it out yet.

why are you arguing?? these people clearly know what they're talking about as their progress has demonstrated... you are overtraining

cut down the volume... do squats and stiff-leg deadlifts and maybe some calf-raises, then leave! see how it works... believe me, you can make yourself feel wiped out w/just three-four sets of each of those if you are truly being intense

 

[b fold the truth]

I made my biggest gains on my legs (size wise) by doing a few sets of squats, a few sets of stiff-legs, and some calf raises.

I went hard, HEAVY, and balls to the wall...

B True

 

[brian747478`]

that routine sounds familiar
brian

 

[b fold the truth]

that routine sounds familiar
brian

Yes...yes it does. So does us looking at a framed pic of Tom plats hitting a quad shot and another of him doing stiff legs...

B True

 

[SteelWeaver]

why are you arguing?? these people clearly know what they're talking about as their progress has demonstrated... you are overtraining

cut down the volume... do squats and stiff-leg deadlifts and maybe some calf-raises, then leave! see how it works... believe me, you can make yourself feel wiped out w/just three-four sets of each of those if you are truly being intense

First, I'm not ARGUING, I'm ASKING. I am perfectly well aware how experienced these people are and that's EXACTLY why I'm ASKING HOW they accomplish these amazingly effective workouts. I've already explained why I sound so aggravated, (if you'd bothered to read the whole thread) and believe me, I'm trying to sound reasonable, but that's kind of dificult when you know you're off track for a comp. and are going to have to crawl over burning coals for 5 weeks simply to avoid extreme public embarrassment and personal self-flagellation ... but that's off topic ...

Second, and if you'll forgive my bluntness, but I'm in a knee-jerk mood, and your tone was hardly gentle, who are YOU to tell me I'm overtraining???? If I'm recovering adequately, WHICH I AM, mostly, all things considered, despite living on a diet an 80's Ethiopian would turn their nose up at, then it's not over-training, IS IT????? And if that brings us back to, "Oh well, then you're not truly being intense, or truly reaching failure," or whatever, then please answer this question:

"How is it that I can do each set (of whatever leg ex) to the point where my legs actually collapse under me, and then do rest pause, or forced a few times? Or drop sets. And I can keep on going for set after set. Apparently I must be doing something wrong, or I am some kind of genetic freak. I sincerely doubt the latter, so please let me in on your intensity secret."

So, mr truly being intense, rather than dropping in here for a quick squiz at the women's board, throwing out arbitrary and unhelpful comments, could you make yourself useful instead, and please tell me:

"What kind of cadence are you using? When do you stop the set? How many more reps do you think you could accomplish IF you were going for failure? Like, what % of your max is that? How hard do you fight, say, on bicep curls for the last rep. Are you standing there with the bar stuck at halfway, straining for 10 secs until it sloooowly slooowly finally comes up, then squeeze at the top? Or are you still moving smoothly fairly easily through a complete ROM?"

Is a long pause at the bottom the/a secret weapon? If one really is aiming for failure, and does 3 sets of squats to failure, is that REALLY adequate? If it is, how come one can rest for a couple of minutes and then go and do 3 sets of hack squats to failure?

I saw W6 post something about doing 10 sets for quads, and how pumped they get - and he didn't seem to think that was over-training. Maybe I read him wrong ....

Spatts: "I'm sure she'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what she's saying is that it TAKES that much to reach failure (and I, of course, question HOW she's doing it, if that's the case)."

On HEAVY days, I aim for concentric failure from the second set on, and achieve it on most sets, then often add in drop sets, to failure on each drop, and forced reps, to where the muscle group quits. When the bar just stops halfway though the ROM, and nothing, nothing you do bar cheating like a bookie in a fixed match will move the bar, that's failure, yes? But then when you rest for a couple of minutes, you can do it again, just with fewer reps. I try to explode up from the bottom, speed up near the top, smooth controlled motion down again.

On LIGHT days, I use about 60% of heavy day weight and add a couple of extra reps, never to failure, concentrate on form, speed.

So, all of that said, how about some pre-contest routines on a 5 or 6-day split that'll take less than 1 hour, or 45 mins.??? I swear, I will try it, I will do it, I will do whatever you guys suggest - just tell me how. I promise, I'll skip the meditative one with the weight thing, and just lift, if that's all it takes Help, please???

BTW - I did bis, tris, forearms and abs last night in 60 mins exactly warm up to cool down, 9 sets heavy bis, 9 sets light tris, 6 sets forearms, 3 sets abs.