For proponents of short, intense workouts - uh huh, sure

[SteelWeaver]

No need to get huffy. Look, the 20 hours is a wildly over-exaggerated and arbitrary number thrown out based on absolutely no concrete information whatsoever, except the apparently completely inaccurate portrait that has evolved in my brain from skimming various posts of yours. OK? Happy?

You train with Hannibabl, right? When I very very first came to this board, a long time ago, from a far distant galaxy (oh, wait, sorry, that wasn't me ...), I was asking about volume, intensity, etc etc. Hannibal, at the time, was arguing that there is absolutely nothing wrong with high volume, and was kind enough to send me sample of his programme, which, if I recall correctly, was a double split, and to my innocent mind at the time, it looked like A HUGE SHIT LOAD OF VOLUME.

So I guess that's where I got that idea. Sorry if I made it sound like I know something about your training that you don't

..... Uumm, so, INCLUDING AR you don't train more than 6 hours a week?

And, you may be right on the mental thing - actually, the truth is, I don't have any problem at all with my training - I like my training just the way it is, but I still want to know how everyone else seems to get it done so much faster.

 

[vinylgroover]

A pretty much constant refrain here on Elite is the "short, intense" workout theme. No longer than 45 mins tops, the drone goes, usually including warm-up and stretching.

Well, I have a question about this:

HOW IN GOD'S NAME DO YOU GET ANYTHING DONE????

Example: I do a total of 12 sets for quads on heavy days, when reps are low, and about 9 or 10 on higher rep days. I do 8 or 9 sets for hams. So, that's 20 sets for the workout. Let's say it takes about a minute to complete each set - 20 mins. 2 mins rest between sets of squats, add 10 mins. 1 - 1.5 between every other set for quads, so that's another 7-10.5 mins. That's 40 mins already. Then light hams - say 9 sets, a minute or so per set, with a minute or so between sets, BAM, there's another 20 minutes. Not counting having to wait for equipment sometimes, loading and unloading the bars, etc. Then if you still wanna do abs, you're looking at pretty much an hour and a half for your workout.

And for the folks who are about to turn around and say - gee, you don't need that many sets, you must not be working hard enough ... I work hard.

For example, typical heavy quad day:

6 mins bicycle warm-up
Squats
warm up set bar x 15
2-3 more warm up sets, progressively heavier
work set 1: 7 reps to form breakdown (I won't say failure, because my lower back fails before my legs do)
Work set 2: 6-7 reps to form breakdown
Work set 3: 5 reps to form breakdown
Work set 4: 5 reps to form breakdown - wait 20 secs, 1 more rep, 20 secs break, 2 more reps
Work set 5: 4-5 reps to form breakdown - wait 20 secs, 1 more rep, 20 secs break, 1 more rep, 20 secs, 1 more rep, 20 secs, 1 more rep
Back off set (sometimes): drop weight, 10 reps or so to failure

Split squats: 3x7-9 to failure

Hack squats: 2 x 6-8 to failure

Leg press: 1x 8 to failure
1 x 5-6 to failure, then wait 20 secs, 1 more rep, 20 secs, 1 more rep, and maybe once more.

Then if I still have energy, leg extension 2 sets, to failure, second set a double drop.

When I say failure, I mean I could not possibly do another rep with good form, or sometimes, even, with bad form, but I seldom do cheating moves.

This would be Saturday, I'm sore til the following Thursday or so.

So - can somebody PLEASE tell me what I'm doing wrong that I cannot fit my workouts in under an hour????? Frankly, if I don't do this much, I don't feel I've worked whatever part it is - if I dropped the number of sets, I'd have to do even MORE forced reps, drops sets, blah de blah.

If I rest less I can't lift any appreciable weight, which kind of negates the point of heavy training.

Any comments?????

What does it matter how long you train? At the end of the day, your only gauge as to whether you are doing something wrong or right is whether you are growing.

Become more analytical in how your body responds to different weight/set/rep schemes rather than arbitrarily saying 'i don't feel like i've worked out if i haven't done 'x' number of sets, or if i haven't spent 1 hour in the gym i haven't felt like i've trained', because it means nothing.

You need to step back and look at how your body is responding. Arbitrary measures and hearsay are not the way you want to be analysing what works and what doesn't.

As a genral rule, IMO rest intervals of 60 seconds or less is leaning toward indurance training, not bodybuilding.

 

[b fold the truth]

quote:
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Originally posted by SteelWeaver


And for the folks who are about to turn around and say - gee, you don't need that many sets, you must not be working hard enough ... I work hard.

This would be Saturday, I'm sore til the following Thursday or so.

Frankly, if I don't do this much, I don't feel I've worked whatever part it is - if I dropped the number of sets, I'd have to do even MORE forced reps, drops sets, blah de blah.


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What gets me about this is what you are saying. You are doing 20 or more sets for legs and wondering how other people work out in less time. Think about this though...

WHY are you sore from Saturday till Thursday? You shouldn't be. You are doing HIGH volume and being that sore for that long...that is overtraining. Yet you also say that if you don't do that much you don't feel like you have worked the body part enough...

You are way overtraining in my opinion. Too many sets, sore for too long, and training for WAY too long in the gym...

B True

 

[MR. BMJ]

I normally do not post on threads that deal with training, because just like dieting, right when you think something doesn't work, then somebody comes along and will gain mucho muscle off of it. It is just too damn individual.

From my own experiences, I am, and have always been fairly strong, and I can grow easy as well. I like my workouts to last no longer than 30-60 minutes tops. I train heavy varying the reps high and low. I hardly go to absolute failure anymore, and I NEVER do eccentric to failure training. I go to positive failure and that is it. I use nice 3-6 second eccentric tempos though.

I really dig the workout that Wilson6 and Spatt's outlined. For example, if I do chest and back one day, i'll do chest heavy 1 week and back light....then i'll reverse it the following week.

Another thing I like is that arm workout that...yep, don't laugh too hard, that Shawn Phillips designed a couple years back in Muscle Media. My arms grow best when I train them frequently (every 3 days or so), rather than really heavy once a week.

3-5 minutes rest when heavy training large muscles...2-3 for smaller muscles. Then 2-3 minutes rest for larger muscles when dieting, and 1-2 minutes rest for smaller muscles.

Less sets when training heavy, and more sets when training light/high reps.

So far, the best programs for me are the ones that hit the muscles with BOTH high and low reps in the same workout for a better blasting of the different muscle fibers (Fast/slow/red/white, etc...).

BMJ

 

[JJFigure]

It is very frustrating trying to figure out how to break down your lifts into 3-4 workouts/week and keep them within livable timeframe. I'm going through that right now; how do you figure out how much is to little and how much is too much? I have a definite time restraint in the mornings, so I HAVE to find a way to have a double-muscle split that I can accomplish in less than 40 minutes. This is why I'm getting together with a powerlifter this weekend to review my plan.

I'm lucky that I was able to train with and meet world level competitive powerlifters with many years of experience under their belts (20+). It was easy to believe the "less is more" mantra when it's coming from very accomplished lifters. And it did work, but they had to help me along the way. It's hard to mentally go from doing 4-5 exercises per bodypart to 2-3 exercises per bodypart - even harder to drop the number of sets from 4 working to 2-3 working.

You will definitely have workouts where you don't feel like you did enough; you'll only believe it after you experience the strength and muscle gains. It sounds like you probably don't have any powerlifters or accomplished lifters at your gym to help you though. :-(

I'll let you know the split we work out if you're interested - you may have to modify it to meet your own development needs, but at least it will give you an idea.

 

[Realgains]

I have never trained for longer than an hour and 15 minutes at a time. For most people low to moderate volume is best and I am talking about anywhere from 3-4 work sets(post warm ups) for small muscle groups and 6 for large (if you are natural) to about 6 for smaller groups and 6-9 sets for larger ones(if you use roids). Some do well on higher volume but they are the minority. The key is using progressive poundages from week to week and a decent amount of intensity.
I got to a 750 squat doing never more than 4 working sets for quads. Again I say the key is progressive poundages .

You are doing far too much volume for the legs my dear. I could put you through just three sets of squats and believe me you wouldn't want to do another thing let alone more quad work. So reduce your volume and increase intensity and work on progressively increasing the poundages used every week or two.

Also don't hit the quads more often than once every 6-8 days unless you are on a good deal of juice.

RG

 

[SteelWeaver]

Whoa, now - this has kind of gotten off topic. I wasn't asking for a critique of my leg workout. I am perfectly happy with my leg workout, and all other workouts too. I just want to know how people manage to FINISH their whole workout, with 2 bodyparts plus abs, in 45 minutes or less, AND still rest for 2 mins between sets???

Realgains, I respect your experience and longevity in this game, but please don't "my dear" me - I find it patronising, and my diet doesn't give me much leeway in the annoyances areas. I would love for you to come and put me through 3 sets of squats that would finish off legs for me but since you are unlikely to travel to Japan to do it, how about you just tell me exactly how you accomplish this? How is it that I can do each set (of whatever leg ex) to the point where my legs actually collapse under me, and then do rest pause, or forced a few times? Or drop sets. And I can keep on going for set after set. Apparently I must be doing something wrong, or I am some kind of genetic freak. I sincerely doubt the latter, so please let me in on your intensity secret.

I don't always count the number of sets I do - if I feel toasted before I *should* be done, I stop. If not, I add sets, or reps, or whatever. It's not set in stone. I don't care how long or short I'm in the gym - I just want to be sure I've completely torched whatever muscle group I've done for the day.

BMJ - W6's heavy/light routine IS what I do. And yes, it works very well. But it still takes me an hour to do two parts. And as for the fiber types, I've recently decided to do heavy, and low reps (4-8) with compound moves, forced reps, drop sets etc. one week, then lighter, with high reps (8-15 or more) with more tutti frutti isolation type moves the next week, no sets past concentric failure. Wanna see how this goes.

B fold - my legs are only that sore after a HEAVY leg day, when I'm on diet. On a light day, when eating like a normal human (oh, when is that??? I can't recall a recent occasion of this, sorry never mind - hate my diet) they recover pretty quickly - a few days, 3 max.

JJ - I would love to see whatever split you come up with - I'll be looking for a routine in 5 weeks and 2 days. I would love to see your comp. pics, too, BTW (hint hint)

So folks, please tell me how you increase intensity while still resting enough to gain strength. Oh, and if you don't train to failure, or past concentric failure - where do you train to? When you can still get one more rep? Two more. Why keep a rep or two in you when you can slam them into the bar??????? Why only give 98%? What's the point of that?????

 

[MS]

Oh man, talk about grumpy. My mamma taught me to walk away from conversations with grumpy people and come back and finish it once they've chilled out.

"Why keep a rep or two in you when you can slam them into the bar??????? Why only give 98%? What's the point of that?????"

Hmmmm, I guess if you have been raised in the masochist school of bodybuilding, this is a good question. Some people find it satisfying to punish themselves (literally and figuratively) until they can't take any more.

However, if you have been raised in the "do what works" school of bodybuilding, then you would just accept that muscle hypertrophy does not require you to kill yourself with the bar, nor give 100% all the time, nor go to failure. It merely requires progression, time under tension, food, rest, and consistency. Of course good genetics help too

I spend 3 hours a week in the gym at the moment. I'm still making gains. However I admit that when I'm precomp, I spend more time in the gym-gotta fit that posing in sometime!

 

[SteelWeaver]

And yet you're still here, chatting - heh heh Mamma doesn't always know best. Please don't go away, now.

Please tell me what you are doing in the gym that allows you to train so little. And if you finish your set before failure - I mean, what does that do? None of the people I've seen in the gym who actually LOOK like bodybuilders simply do 8 reps or whatever, and then PLACE the bar gently back on the rack without a hair out out of place. They do as many as they can possibly squeeze out for that weight, then grunt the weight back onto the rack, puffing and sweating and heaving and sometimes coughing, like that pre-puke dry cough.

OK, granted, this is a heavy day. On light days I breeze through, putting in minimal effort nowhere near failure. But I can't help wondering as I do it if it's worth the time. Then I think about W6 and imagine it MUST be worth it, since it works for him.

Come on, let's hear some routines, and not only routines, but HOW they are accomplished.

 

[SteelWeaver]

LMFAO!!!!! You totally crack me up.





Hang on! HEY! That kid's not Japanese! He's Nepalese!