For proponents of short, intense workouts - uh huh, sure

[SteelWeaver]

A pretty much constant refrain here on Elite is the "short, intense" workout theme. No longer than 45 mins tops, the drone goes, usually including warm-up and stretching.

Well, I have a question about this:

HOW IN GOD'S NAME DO YOU GET ANYTHING DONE????

Example: I do a total of 12 sets for quads on heavy days, when reps are low, and about 9 or 10 on higher rep days. I do 8 or 9 sets for hams. So, that's 20 sets for the workout. Let's say it takes about a minute to complete each set - 20 mins. 2 mins rest between sets of squats, add 10 mins. 1 - 1.5 between every other set for quads, so that's another 7-10.5 mins. That's 40 mins already. Then light hams - say 9 sets, a minute or so per set, with a minute or so between sets, BAM, there's another 20 minutes. Not counting having to wait for equipment sometimes, loading and unloading the bars, etc. Then if you still wanna do abs, you're looking at pretty much an hour and a half for your workout.

And for the folks who are about to turn around and say - gee, you don't need that many sets, you must not be working hard enough ... I work hard.

For example, typical heavy quad day:

6 mins bicycle warm-up
Squats
warm up set bar x 15
2-3 more warm up sets, progressively heavier
work set 1: 7 reps to form breakdown (I won't say failure, because my lower back fails before my legs do)
Work set 2: 6-7 reps to form breakdown
Work set 3: 5 reps to form breakdown
Work set 4: 5 reps to form breakdown - wait 20 secs, 1 more rep, 20 secs break, 2 more reps
Work set 5: 4-5 reps to form breakdown - wait 20 secs, 1 more rep, 20 secs break, 1 more rep, 20 secs, 1 more rep, 20 secs, 1 more rep
Back off set (sometimes): drop weight, 10 reps or so to failure

Split squats: 3x7-9 to failure

Hack squats: 2 x 6-8 to failure

Leg press: 1x 8 to failure
1 x 5-6 to failure, then wait 20 secs, 1 more rep, 20 secs, 1 more rep, and maybe once more.

Then if I still have energy, leg extension 2 sets, to failure, second set a double drop.

When I say failure, I mean I could not possibly do another rep with good form, or sometimes, even, with bad form, but I seldom do cheating moves.

This would be Saturday, I'm sore til the following Thursday or so.

So - can somebody PLEASE tell me what I'm doing wrong that I cannot fit my workouts in under an hour????? Frankly, if I don't do this much, I don't feel I've worked whatever part it is - if I dropped the number of sets, I'd have to do even MORE forced reps, drops sets, blah de blah.

If I rest less I can't lift any appreciable weight, which kind of negates the point of heavy training.

Any comments?????

 

[SteelWeaver]

Yeah, but spatts, with all that AR and stuff you're doing, you're training about 20 hours a week.

I LIKE training to failure. I take it fairly easy on light days, but on heavy days if I don't move the weight until I can't move it anymore, it just doesn't feel right.

 

[MS]

There is no need to train to failure (for muscle growth OR strength gains), and those long sessions are not good to do all the time. You really need to periodize your training for max results. Occassional failure or eccentrics are fine (emotionally satisfying) but you need to back off sometimes. I hit failure every 6-8 weeks on each bodypart (but not all in the same week), and don't do any eccentrics anymore. The only reason my sessions occassionally take an hour is because sometimes my training partner drags her heels.......

I might also suggest you split leg day. Quads AND hams is a lot to fit in if you're doing high reps/sets.

 

[takniteasy]

I have found that I get better results with less time in the gym than more. I used to spend anywhere from 1 to 2.5 hours in the gym, 5 days a week. Now it is only 1 hour tops. I still get an intense workout and I have my workouts planned ahead of time. I know exactly what I will be doing and use my training log relegiously.

 

[JJFigure]

The only way I can accomplish shorter workouts (my goal is 40 min or less) is by dropping my rest intervals. My rest intervals for heavy workouts are 1 minute; it keeps your workout intense - especially the leg workouts.

One thing I learned when I trained as a powerlifter was I was totally overtraining. Less really is more when it comes to weight training; especially if you want to develop size. A leg day for me includes 4 working sets of squats or lunges, 3-4 working sets of stiff legs, 2-3 working sets of extensions or sissy squats, and 2-3 working sets of some form of curl. With 1 minute rest intervals, I can get this done in 40 min or less. And trust me, I'm barely walking by the time I finish this workout.

As a natural, you need to try to keep your workouts shorter because your body will start producing more cortisol the longer you are trainnig. NHE recommends a cutoff time of 45 min to get a maximum workout w/ minimum cortisol production (if that makes sense - I can't seem to talk well this morning).

 

[litloak]

Steel, I agree. Between warm-up, set-up, workout, stretch/cool down, put stuff away, it's definitely 1-1½ hours easy. Any more than that and I realize I've been goofing off too much, but it's always more than an hour.

 

[JJFigure]

I'm actually going to review my lifting plan for the next few months with a competitive powerlifter to make sure I'm not overdoing it. I still have a tendency to try to squeeze in as many exercises as possible, even with my limited time frame. I just like lifting too much.

Powerlifters are good at helping you figure out the right number of exercises and sets to prevent overtraining. It's well worth it to run your training plan by a powerlifter for a reality check.

 

[b fold the truth]

And for the folks who are about to turn around and say - gee, you don't need that many sets, you must not be working hard enough ... I work hard.

This would be Saturday, I'm sore til the following Thursday or so.

Frankly, if I don't do this much, I don't feel I've worked whatever part it is - if I dropped the number of sets, I'd have to do even MORE forced reps, drops sets, blah de blah.

I think that your answer is somewhere in these three statements that you made in your first post...

B True

 

[Night Fly]

I have grown more since February (when I started my strongwoman/powerlifting type training) than the whole time I was bodybuilding. I used to think I wasn't doing enough in the gym....but I cut down on my resting intervals...and bam...I was sweating my tail off in the 45 minutes that I was working out.

I think you would be surprised at how much it helps you.

 

[SteelWeaver]

"I think that your answer is somewhere in these three statements that you made in your first post... "

I don't understand b fold. Where? What? Please don't be so cryptic - I'm on low carbs.

Spatts: "I need constant AR as it is." That's what I meant about you training about 20 hours a week. To me AR *is* training.

NightFly: I DO sweat - HARD. I'm one of the few people in the gym who do actually sweat. Example - Mondays I do shoulders, tris and calves (one heavy, one light, calves high volume)- I do everything in a giant loop - basically no rest for about a solid hour, unless I have to wait for equipment or set up.

So, like this:
warm-up etc, then,
1x6 db shoulder press
1x10 dips
1x15 standing calves

1x6 db shoulder press
1x9 dips
1x14 calves

1x5 sh. press
1x7 dips
1x14 calves

1x4-5 (plus one or so forced) sh. press
1x 8-10 narrow grip bench
1x 15 calves

1x3-4 (plus one or two forced) sh. press
1x 8-10 narrow grip bench
1x12 calves (calves are all to failure)

1x 7-8 lateral db raise
1x 8-10 narrow grip bench
1 x 13 calves

etc etc etc, some drop sets on lateral raises, then delt flyes or face pulls, with one drop set or so, finally machine presses, usually one straight set then a drop.

I don't stop moving, and this takes at least an hour if not more.

On other days, for "light" parts, I rest max 60 seconds, but usually do supersets or tri-sets to finish them off quickly.

When I shorten the rest between sets, I never ever, ever make strength gains. I have the most pathetic squat on the board for my bodyweight, and bench is worse.

MS - I've broken everything up into one part per day (6 days) from this week, with abs and calves thrown in 2 or 3 times a week. Hams will be Thursdays - quads Saturdays, alternating heavy/light, so hams won't interfere with squats on Saturdays. So this is all fine and dandy - I don't expect any of these workouts to take much longer than 45 mins or so, but when I go back to an off-season program, 3-4 times per week, doubling up on body parts, they get long again ....

I used to periodise, til I came to this board and tried W6's heavy/ light thing. I USED to go heavy with forced reps, drop sets, eccentrics, etc every week, but stopped making strength gains, so I tried backing off on alternate weeks. Now I do heavy legs 2x per month, one EXTREMELY intense high rep day a month, as far beyond pain as possible, and one very moderate, "easy" day, where nothing is to failure, and weights are very moderate. I'm working on breaking up the rest like this too, but for now it's simply heavy/light.

"There is no need to train to failure (for muscle growth OR strength gains), " ...............uummm, references please.

I just don't get it. Look, it's not like I'm not making gains, (well, now doesn't count - I'm dieting) I just really want to know how people are able to do these short workouts and still feel like they "worked out" AND make strength and muscular gains?????? Rest intervals of less than 3 minutes supposedly don't allow for CNS recovery when doing heavy, low rep lifts (not saying I'm doing a whole lotta these now, but FWIW), so how do you make good strength gains on a 60 sec rest interval?

If I'm going to temporary concentric muscular failure and sometimes extending that with rest-pause etc, on a large majority of my sets, and it STILL takes me up to 12 sets to torch a large muscle group, please tell me what heights of intensity I have to reach if I am to cut the number of sets ....

If I sound aggro, please forgive me - I'm in a bad position re contest prep and thus in a BAD BAD BAD mood. Just give me some ideas here and I promise I won't bite.