Critque my Sumo Deadlift form :)

[Debaser]

Debaser, you seem very young, so I'm going to assume that you have not tried alot of the methods out there. You will learn, in time, that most methods are good and work as long as a person sticks to it. You can't believe everything you read. Please be more critical, and less absolute, when evaluating what is right and wrong to do. Please open your mind to what your body is capable of. You seem to impose ceilings where they are not necessary. I say this based on the fact that I actually took time out of my evening to read every post you've ever made. They all seem to start out "Interesting. No offense, man, but..." You speak as though you are an authority. What you do, HIT, may work very well for you AND others. I would never take that from you. This doesn't mean everyone needs to do it to see results. Furthermore, some of us are not trying to be big. Big is subjctive anyway. A 27inch thigh, even on a lean man over 6 foot, is not very big . . . but I suppose progress is progress.

Powerlifting is a different beast alltogether. You clearly don't know alot about it, and that's ok...most people don't. There aren't any powerlifting gyms where you live, and I know this because I'm about to open the only one in the city in May.

For every article you come up with that says something is bad, I can come up with something from someone just as qualified that says it's good. That's the nature of the beast. Same for diet. Even at the research level . . . I could go to Pubmed and specifically look for opposing views on a topic, and find well thought out research from doctors and other professionals that SWEAR by opposite opinions.

Bottom line, do what works.

I am in total agreement with you regarding form. That's MY soapbox. If I can't lift X lbs with perfect form, I don't consider myself to have lifted it. I want to be lifting when I'm 80, so I try to do it right or not at all. That doesn't mean that strength gains should be hindered. CCJ and I are probably both experiencing beginners luck. I've been training for strength for about 9 months. Gains will come faster now, than say, a year from now.

I agree, most people don't know how to train. This will be evident in their results.

Side note, when you said a gym "in the city" you're not talking about Kansas City are you? I would join in a second...

Though I'll admit I can't call myself an authority I consider myself very well-researched on the aspects of training, recovery and diet. And most people train like they're genetic supermen 5 + times a week and wonder why they don't grow.

The truth is, volume routines simply do not work, or at least not very well at all, for the vast majority of trainees. I have gathered this from a great many sources, personal sources, as well as reading everything by Stuart McRobert, and internet authorities (in my opinion) such as Bryan Haycock, Iron Addict, Doggcrapp, and a few others.

Doggcrapp made a very good point, saying that the best thing a bodybuilder could do for the first few years of his career is train with a competent powerlifter. That to get bigger and bigger you need to lift bigger and bigger weights.

I'll agree that not everyone wants to be big, but just about everyone here wants to be bigGER. And they keep chugging away at routines that just don't produce results, then they think they've hit their genetic ceiling when they're likely 20-40 lbs away from it, and use gear. I have nothing against roids, but it's sad that people turn to them so quickly.

 

[Lumberg]

First of all, CCJ, you are doing what? like 95#? You can have the best form in the world at 95# then at 275 or even 185 the form is way different.

Second of all the bar should be as close as possible to your body. This will involve some scraping. The closer the center of gravity of the bar is to your body, the better (and the more you can use your legs vs. you back).

Thirdly, I have a special technique for sumos the works well for me:

Feet way out, like 6" away from the wheels. Pointed out at about a 45-55 degree angle.

Grip about 1" inside the smooth part. This means the farthest out the outer pad of my hand is is 1" into the smooth part. The minor instanility is more than compensated for by the lack of digging into my quads.

The whole damn thing rides up my legs on the way up.

And here's the kicker: you know those round foam pads that go around the bar with velcro, ostensibly for squats? Well I put one on each end of the bar, pushed up against the collar. They cover the area that touches my leg perfectly. So the bar is like rolling up my leg on the pad.

I know this isn't powerlifting regulation procedure, but it works for me and lets me concentrate on lifting the weight and not how my grip is being ripped apart or my legs are getting chewed up.

I DL for size and strength. I don't compete in BBing or PLing. I just do it for myself.

JC

 

[coolcolj]

But a poundage is merely dependent on how long you've been working out, if you know what you're doing. Most of the guys here add weight too quickly (coolcolj talking about getting ready to deadlift 500 lbs soon when he JUST failed 450 and didn't do 350 with proper form either), or stick to the same horrible volume routines and rely on gear to gain muscle.
/rant

When I mentioned 500lbs in my progress pics thread - that was last year NOV 12th, I attempted 455 last week. It's an old thread that someone bought back up. Things taken out of context take on a whole new meaning

 

[coolcolj]

I understand powerlifting is a different animal with different goals. My question though, is coolcolj an actual powerlifter? If not, then why would he not pull his shoulders back and make the deadlift a more "productive" movement, instead of just trying to get a high 1RM?

There really are a great many HIT followers, what I meant was that there are few on this board. As a result, teenagers are coming to this board all excited to use steroids because their magazine routine didn't work whatsoever (volume).

As far as "less work" it depends on how you define it. Sure I'm doing less sets, but when 1 set of rest-paused 20 rep squats will just about make me collapse into a puddle of my own vomit, I think I did enough work. And most that do volume training are doing too much work, and thus overtraining.

I am not a powerlifter per se, but strength is one of my greater goals. The deadlift is more an assitant move to me - mainly for strength in the posterior chain, the more weight I move the better.

Then thing you have to remeber is, not all of us train for msucle mass exclusively. I train for functional mass and performance.
And not all of use here train to failure either. In fact I never hit failure on any set if I can help it. Lately I've been doing 3 reps with a weight I can do 8-10 reps with to failure. Yet i continue to gain size, strength, speed and power increases. You are seeing things from the eyes of BB'er "experts" which usually have no basis on pure science - a lot of their knowledge based is trail and error IMO, which it tends to apply only to them in a certain point in time. Believe me I have tried a lot of differnet types of training already - I started with HIT, I have done normal BB'er training, I have done HST based routines, traditional strength training and now I do real performance based training which has no name tag.

Now recently I squatted every 2nd day while doing the Smolov squat program - in 2-3weeks I gained 40-50lbs on my squat, and 6-8lbs of lean bodymass doing high volume sets 6x6, 5x7, 7x5, 10x3 with relatively heavy weights. I didn't overtrain one bit - the gains speak for themselevs,. The human body is quite plastic, you can push it quite hard and it will adapt. As long as one knows which variables to tinker with.

 

[coolcolj]

First of all, CCJ, you are doing what? like 95#? You can have the best form in the world at 95# then at 275 or even 185 the form is way different.

Second of all the bar should be as close as possible to your body. This will involve some scraping. The closer the center of gravity of the bar is to your body, the better (and the more you can use your legs vs. you back).

Thirdly, I have a special technique for sumos the works well for me:

Feet way out, like 6" away from the wheels. Pointed out at about a 45-55 degree angle.

Grip about 1" inside the smooth part. This means the farthest out the outer pad of my hand is is 1" into the smooth part. The minor instanility is more than compensated for by the lack of digging into my quads.

The whole damn thing rides up my legs on the way up.

JC

Thanks - but Rickey Dale Crain - a noted expert on the sumo form gave me some tips - he does say the back will not be arched and can be rounded. The thing is there is no way I can get the bar anycloser to scrape my shins, my thighs ar ein the way!

anyway some tips he gave to me -

practice makes perfect......set up with 45's on the bar..not 25's....hips need to be in closer to the bar,,,not so far behind them.........knees out like you were squatting...you do not squat to the bar...you lean over grab the bar moreso and then knees out....shoulders down......hands insidethe thighs....dip and pull..

absolutely....technique is so vital to sumo...i have worked and refined on it since the early 70's...longer than perhaps anyone on this planet.... lots of tips and tricks in it... rdc

halfo on and half off....you are lifting with a chrome bar...which is not good for any type of gripping..use a non chrome bar...

actually the shoulders should be directly over the bar...in a straight line as you start the pull.....hips in close to the bar.....head...shoulders/arms/knees(as close as possible/bar all in a straight line....center of gravity is really important in this lift......
rdc


Here is something on sumo deadlifting from RDC's article on Advanced Powerlifting Techniques:
The sumo set-up:

Approach the bar. Take one foot or the other; your choice as to which is most comfortable and depending on whether you are a wide sumo or a narrow sumo. The shin goes up to the bar, and toes tilted out 45 degrees or even more in some cases. Shins vertical, and knees slightly bent. Hands should be down inside the legs with the forearms touching the inside of the thigh if possible. As you push your knees out (like the squat), you bend over slightly, with arms straight, and grasp the bar half on and half off the knurling. Your arms should be straight vertically from the shoulders to the bar. This rule will determine exactly where the hands are to be placed. For a very big lifter with wider shoulders this may be all the way on the knurling. For most, however, half off and half on will insure the best and shortest pull.

The arms are straight, and the bar lies in the fingers, like it is holding a hook. Thumb should be overlapping one or two of the first two fingers.

The bar should "not" be squeezed. Rather, it should just lay in the fingers/hand. Only the thumb should be flexed, or squeezed, not the hands, not the forearm. If this is done incorrectly, most likely, the bar on a very hard pull will slip out of the hands. Also if the hands are rotated as you grip the bar, it will most likely slip out as the weight pulls down, and pulls the rotated hands back to a straight up and down position. One does not have to have a strong grip to hold onto large amounts of weight. I have a very poor grip and grip strength and have never lost a deadlift, i.e. 716 at 165lbs.

The sumo attempt/pull:

As you are leaning over the bar knees pushed out, you dip the hips slightly to start your pull, short and sweet. The hips will pull in towards the bar. The head will follow from down to out as you start the pull. You will pull the slack first out from the plate/bar. Then, the bend in the bar slack will come next. The bar will pull into the fingers even more as this slack is pulled out and as all the different areas of slack are pulled out you will explode up, with a very short in line stroke. The back will not be arched but have a slight curve in it/or perhaps even straight. You should take a short half breath right as you go down to the bar. Too much breath expands the chest and rib cage more than it need be. It raises the shoulders and lengthens the distance the bar travels, as well as forces the shoulders back while at the bottom right before the pull.

A variation of the slow sumo pull is the drop and grab and explode method. Everything is still the same as far as the hands, but it is done very quickly. Many times, when done too quickly or out of control, one grabs the bar wrong and/or the hips rise to fast, giving way to a stiff legged deadlift.

 

[Lumberg]

So you ask for advice, then after you get it say, no thanks, I'll follow Ricky Dale Crain's advice?

Next time just make a thread about sourced you've read about sumo form




JC

 

[skaman607]

I think I'll stick with conventional for now

 

[coolcolj]

I didn't say that

I posted this thread here and the one at Dr Squat's at the same time, the above is what he an dother's posted in reply to other people's post in my thread.


http://www.drsquat.com/index.cfm?action=viewtopic&forumID=2&rootthreadID=35662&context=13

 

[Nonerz]

<--- spatts video!!

 

[Debaser]

bump