Critque my Sumo Deadlift form :)

[Debaser]

You should not roll your shoulders back if powerlifting....talk about unnecessary. The whole point is to lock the weight out in the shortest ROM possible. Shrugging it back is a waste of time. If you're going for an upper back workout, shrrug away.

Chuck Vogelpohl and I would humbly tell the author of "an article in hardgainer" to piss off. You hurt your back when your core isn't tight enough and strong enough to support the movement. Also, I have shoulder issues, and have never once been bothered by the grip and rip. If you do it carelessly, yeah, prepare to sit out. You have to know what the hell you're doing. I can see where this might be more dangerous conventional, but sumo....not so much.

Why wouldn't you want the upper back muscles worked? This makes the lift even more productive. Is he a powerlifter? I thought he was an olympic lifter if anything. Moreover, the standard deadlift is used in competitions, not the sumo, unless I'm mistaken.

Also, if you slump your shoulders forward, the back will often round, and his back DID round in the video, at least once, and this is with very light weight. I can capture a still if you don't see this.

And why do the grip and rip if there is even a modicum of a chance of injury? I don't see how you could logically think that yanking an extremely heavy weight from the ground has no greater chance of injury than pulling it up controlled.

 

[spatts]

Why wouldn't you want the upper back muscles worked? This makes the lift even more productive. Is he a powerlifter? I thought he was an olympic lifter if anything. Moreover, the standard deadlift is used in competitions, not the sumo, unless I'm mistaken.

It makes it more productive if you're a bodybuilder. That's CoolcolJ's call. Not ours. If he's lifting for numbers, the shrug is not necessary. Your upper back will get worked either way, and if it needs more, you can isolate for that. Regarding sumo, you are mistaken. That video of me was in an APF competition.

Also, if you slump your shoulders forward, the back will often round, and his back DID round in the video, at least once, and this is with very light weight. I can capture a still if you don't see this.

Again, this is about strength. Some of us spend hours being able to execute perfect form at high weights. If you've never been there, you won't think it's possible. Never once in the 405 pound lift does my upper back round. You can have your traps tight and shoulders low at the same time. His rounded but not at lock out, so what's your point about the shrug?

And why do the grip and rip if there is even a modicum of a chance of injury? I don't see how you could logically think that yanking an extremely heavy weight from the ground has no greater chance of injury than pulling it up controlled. [/B]

It's you that believes there's a modicum of injury. Not I. Don't associate speed with being uncontrolled. I train for speed. Grip and Rip makes it sound bad. Fact is, it's very controlled.

BTW, what do you deadlift?

 

[JDarty6173]

Why wouldn't you want the upper back muscles worked? This makes the lift even more productive. Is he a powerlifter? I thought he was an olympic lifter if anything. Moreover, the standard deadlift is used in competitions, not the sumo, unless I'm mistaken.

Also, if you slump your shoulders forward, the back will often round, and his back DID round in the video, at least once, and this is with very light weight. I can capture a still if you don't see this.

And why do the grip and rip if there is even a modicum of a chance of injury? I don't see how you could logically think that yanking an extremely heavy weight from the ground has no greater chance of injury than pulling it up controlled.

First off in competition you can deadlift either sumo or conventional and anything inbetween... The general idea is to arch your lower back and round your upperback somewhat.. Keeping the shoulders forward decreases the distance of the Pull... As far as why grip and rip? Because it works. And the point of powerlifting is to move the heaviest amount of weight possible from point A to Point B and back again.. I personnally feel no more stress on my body from the grip and rip and i do from setting up at the bar first. So does that method have a greater risk of injury? Possibly.. But has that been proven in real application to be the case? I don't think so....

 

[coolcolj]

kick ass there CCJ. how does the grip feel? you going switch it up and try various grips, like one forward, one backward, and the thumb underneath the fingers grip? keep it up mang.

Grip feels, good but maybe I can go narrower, but that means putting my hands somewhat in the smooth part.

I'll try with 45's next workout and see how it feels.

Hook grip is not working for me at the moment
Alternate grip is only for when I go max.

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My upper back always has a curve in it, even if I pull my shoulders back, its how my back is shaped. I guess its my traps and upper back mass

The 25s probably don't help.

 

[crew9]

Grip feels, good but maybe I can go narrower, but that means putting my hands somewhat in the smooth part.

I'll try with 45's next workout and see how it feels.

Hook grip is not working for me at the moment
Alternate grip is only for when I go max.

--------------------

My upper back always has a curve in it, even if I pull my shoulders back, its how my back is shaped. I guess its my traps and upper back mass

The 25s probably don't help.

Gripping the smooth part isn't that bad. I use a very narrow grip and most of my hand is on the smooth part.

 

[Debaser]

BTW, what do you deadlift?

This isn't really relevant. 200 x 5, if you must know. But I have only trained for 8 months (5 months, if you remove the first 3 where I didn't know what I was doing, e.g. working out with ridiculous 4 or 5 day/week splits), and I am not naturally strong whatsoever.

Rant...

But a poundage is merely dependent on how long you've been working out, if you know what you're doing. Most of the guys here add weight too quickly (coolcolj talking about getting ready to deadlift 500 lbs soon when he JUST failed 450 and didn't do 350 with proper form either), or stick to the same horrible volume routines and rely on gear to gain muscle.

I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers, spatts you seem to be quite knowledgable, but it seems 98% of this forum acts like a 16 year old trying to put on 30 lbs of muscle every month while dropping to 3% bodyfat. They don't know how to train, and they will never listen when someone advocates an H.I.T., hardgainer, DC, or HST routine even though these produce FANTASTIC gains for those natural or enhanced. Other than the very few HIT supporters here, everyone seems to work out 4 to 6 (SIX!) times a week.

Though I haven't even been training for a full year, because of all the research I've done I seem to know how to productively train far better than most here. They've all been brainwashed, and will NEVER try a low-volume routine. Or they'll say they tried it and made no gains, but they added a set here, and there, and another day, and fucking so on...

I may sound like I'm overreacting, but I'm just trying to help people realize their goals and that they've been spinning their wheels in the gym (some for years).

/rant

 

[spatts]

Debaser, you seem very young, so I'm going to assume that you have not tried alot of the methods out there. You will learn, in time, that most methods are good and work as long as a person sticks to it. You can't believe everything you read. Please be more critical, and less absolute, when evaluating what is right and wrong to do. Please open your mind to what your body is capable of. You seem to impose ceilings where they are not necessary. I say this based on the fact that I actually took time out of my evening to read every post you've ever made. They all seem to start out "Interesting. No offense, man, but..." You speak as though you are an authority. What you do, HIT, may work very well for you AND others. I would never take that from you. This doesn't mean everyone needs to do it to see results. Furthermore, some of us are not trying to be big. Big is subjctive anyway. A 27inch thigh, even on a lean man over 6 foot, is not very big . . . but I suppose progress is progress.

Powerlifting is a different beast alltogether. You clearly don't know alot about it, and that's ok...most people don't. There aren't any powerlifting gyms where you live, and I know this because I'm about to open the only one in the city in May.

For every article you come up with that says something is bad, I can come up with something from someone just as qualified that says it's good. That's the nature of the beast. Same for diet. Even at the research level . . . I could go to Pubmed and specifically look for opposing views on a topic, and find well thought out research from doctors and other professionals that SWEAR by opposite opinions.

Bottom line, do what works.

I am in total agreement with you regarding form. That's MY soapbox. If I can't lift X lbs with perfect form, I don't consider myself to have lifted it. I want to be lifting when I'm 80, so I try to do it right or not at all. That doesn't mean that strength gains should be hindered. CCJ and I are probably both experiencing beginners luck. I've been training for strength for about 9 months. Gains will come faster now, than say, a year from now.

I agree, most people don't know how to train. This will be evident in their results.

 

[Hannibal]

This isn't really relevant. 200 x 5, if you must know. But I have only trained for 8 months (5 months, if you remove the first 3 where I didn't know what I was doing, e.g. working out with ridiculous 4 or 5 day/week splits), and I am not naturally strong whatsoever.

But a poundage is merely dependent on how long you've been working out, if you know what you're doing. Most of the guys here add weight too quickly (coolcolj talking about getting ready to deadlift 500 lbs soon when he JUST failed 450 and didn't do 350 with proper form either), or stick to the same horrible volume routines and rely on gear to gain muscle.

I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers, spatts you seem to be quite knowledgable, but it seems 98% of this forum acts like a 16 year old trying to put on 30 lbs of muscle every month while dropping to 3% bodyfat. They don't know how to train, and they will never listen when someone advocates an H.I.T., hardgainer, DC, or HST routine even though these produce FANTASTIC gains for those natural or enhanced. Other than the very few HIT supporters here, everyone seems to work out 4 to 6 (SIX!) times a week.

Though I haven't even been training for a full year, because of all the research I've done I seem to know how to productively train far better than most here. They've all been brainwashed, and will NEVER try a low-volume routine. Or they'll say they tried it and made no gains, but they added a set here, and there, and another day, and fucking so on...

Like Spatts said, powerlifting is a different animal. The more weight you want to pull the more your form has to be perfect. The littlest mistakes make the difference between a made and a missed attempt. So it is a relevant question. And since I train with her I obviously agree that her form is dead on. If it wasn't I would help her fix it, and have.

I do agree with you however on the fact that a weight is only matter of time. Unfortunately, me squatting a grand may take 200 years, and by then it will be too late...but I think time is the only true limiting factor.

You say that you have less than one year of training experience. You also say that there aren't more H.I.T. advocates...wonder why? How can you have effectively analyzed more than one training style in that limited amount of time? If you like H.I.T. and it works for you...great. As Spatts said, "do what works." As long as you are progressing thats all that matters. But to say that low volume is the best way...when you have such a limited training base is a mistake I believe. I have trained a "little" more than a year. I have tried pretty much every form of training out there. You know what? IT ALL WORKS!!! For a little while anyway. The problem I found with H.I.T. and low volume is just the mindset. Why would you want to do the LEAST amount of work you could do...won't that limit your gains? And if, as we both agree, the only true limiting factor to gains is our own lifespan...then why not do the MOST your body can handle and make gains? If you are on the classic "one set to failure" routine, and due to lack of sleep, poor eating, etc you experience overtraining...what is your course of action? Time off? Because you cant just cut back your workload...1-1=0. Which brings us back to time as the limiting factor. Taking a week off a couple of times a year adds up over 20 years of training.

As I have said before, I personally would rather train on the other edge of the spectrum. Right on the line of "overtraining" if there is such a thing. Do the most work that I physically can endure and still make gains. Coming into a meet I will train upwards of 11-14(fourteen) times a week.

*TANGENT* You said that most people dont know how to train. I would tend to agree that "most" don't. But the problem as I see it isnt just lack of knowledge. It's lack of desire. How many people have you seen in the gym year after year...they look the same, lift the same...and continue to train the same? That's the part that I don't understand. Why put in all that effort to maintain when you could progress. *TANGENT*

Having said all that you have come to the right place for training knowledge. Try to read things objectively. Find what works, and work hard. Good Luck.

 

[Debaser]

Like Spatts said, powerlifting is a different animal. The more weight you want to pull the more your form has to be perfect. The littlest mistakes make the difference between a made and a missed attempt. So it is a relevant question. And since I train with her I obviously agree that her form is dead on. If it wasn't I would help her fix it, and have.

I do agree with you however on the fact that a weight is only matter of time. Unfortunately, me squatting a grand may take 200 years, and by then it will be too late...but I think time is the only true limiting factor.

You say that you have less than one year of training experience. You also say that there aren't more H.I.T. advocates...wonder why? How can you have effectively analyzed more than one training style in that limited amount of time? If you like H.I.T. and it works for you...great. As Spatts said, "do what works." As long as you are progressing thats all that matters. But to say that low volume is the best way...when you have such a limited training base is a mistake I believe. I have trained a "little" more than a year. I have tried pretty much every form of training out there. You know what? IT ALL WORKS!!! For a little while anyway. The problem I found with H.I.T. and low volume is just the mindset. Why would you want to do the LEAST amount of work you could do...won't that limit your gains? And if, as we both agree, the only true limiting factor to gains is our own lifespan...then why not do the MOST your body can handle and make gains? If you are on the classic "one set to failure" routine, and due to lack of sleep, poor eating, etc you experience overtraining...what is your course of action? Time off? Because you cant just cut back your workload...1-1=0. Which brings us back to time as the limiting factor. Taking a week off a couple of times a year adds up over 20 years of training.

As I have said before, I personally would rather train on the other edge of the spectrum. Right on the line of "overtraining" if there is such a thing. Do the most work that I physically can endure and still make gains. Coming into a meet I will train upwards of 11-14(fourteen) times a week.

*TANGENT* You said that most people dont know how to train. I would tend to agree that "most" don't. But the problem as I see it isnt just lack of knowledge. It's lack of desire. How many people have you seen in the gym year after year...they look the same, lift the same...and continue to train the same? That's the part that I don't understand. Why put in all that effort to maintain when you could progress. *TANGENT*

Having said all that you have come to the right place for training knowledge. Try to read things objectively. Find what works, and work hard. Good Luck.

I understand powerlifting is a different animal with different goals. My question though, is coolcolj an actual powerlifter? If not, then why would he not pull his shoulders back and make the deadlift a more "productive" movement, instead of just trying to get a high 1RM?

There really are a great many HIT followers, what I meant was that there are few on this board. As a result, teenagers are coming to this board all excited to use steroids because their magazine routine didn't work whatsoever (volume).

As far as "less work" it depends on how you define it. Sure I'm doing less sets, but when 1 set of rest-paused 20 rep squats will just about make me collapse into a puddle of my own vomit, I think I did enough work. And most that do volume training are doing too much work, and thus overtraining.

 

[Hannibal]

I understand powerlifting is a different animal with different goals. My question though, is coolcolj an actual powerlifter? If not, then why would he not pull his shoulders back and make the deadlift a more "productive" movement, instead of just trying to get a high 1RM?

As far as "less work" it depends on how you define it. Sure I'm doing less sets, but when 1 set of rest-paused 20 rep squats will just about make me collapse into a puddle of my own vomit, I think I did enough work. And most that do volume training are doing too much work, and thus overtraining.

There in lies the question that alot of bodybuilders face. Are they using the movement to build muscle. Or are they using their muscles to move weight. Another thing I dislike about bodybuilding...you get stuck in that middle ground. You want to move big weight or do you want to have big muscles. You obviously can do both....no doubt. But you are always more succesful when you focus all your energy on one thing. If you are using the deadlift as a means to increase muscle mass in the upper back then adding to the ROM isn't that bad of an idea. If you want to move the most weight possible...then the shorter the ROM the better.

My question to you on your other point is how do you determine that you are doing "too much" work??