Can we talk about calorie levels and refeed effects?

[SteelWeaver]

Also, this starving person will no doubt have less LBM than the more moderate dieter so they will not be able to store as much glucose in skeletal muscle...this could lead to a greater increase in (transient) hyperglycemia.

..........................

The increase in protein synthesis and leptin seen after near starvation is no doubt one of the many reasons why our ancestors were able to survive and breed coming out of famine, drought, harsh winters......That, and the uncanny ability to tuck away long term excess calories in a 'safe' place!

Um, just another question here - what's the definition of "starving" here. The original post also referred to semi-starvation. I don't think my diet + activity levels are quite at THAT point (even though it feels like it, lol), but I'm wondering if this is going to affect my carb-up negatively ....

 

[MS]

"Well, I guess if the binge causes a surge in insulin, that would certainly prevent any fat burning from happening, even if
the calories themselves don't stay down."

If a binger induced a large phase 1 insulin response without adequate carb absorption, it would merely cause hypoclycemia leading to more frequent binges and prolly some muscle catabolism.....I don't know if this is what happens or not though.

"But SOME of those calories must stay down - if a binge lasts an hour, say, within the first 20 mins a bunch of carbs could
easily have been absorbed, couldn't they? " Yes, and judging by the 'normal' weight of bulemics in general, this is almost certainly what happens.

Depends on how much and what type of carbs were eaten, how much fat was in the meal, the bulemics insulin sensitivity etc.....just like with anyone else.

"Does the body pump out cortisol in reaction to low calories?"......yes

Or is it the stress of dealing with the cravings that causes
cortisol release?"...........If the cravings are causing you 'stress', then they will no doubt lead to increased cortisol activity. Low carbs, overtraining, thermogenics and a zillion other things can cause unhealthy elevation of cortisol.

"...semi-starvation. I don't think my diet + activity levels are quite at THAT point..."

You don't think 1000 low carb calories per day (which is what is considered a severe calorie restriction for sedentary couch potatoes) combined with all of the exercise you're doing while at a low bodyfat levels qualifies as semi-starvation?? Think again. What you're doing is BAD for your body. In the long term, if you can control your post comp eating, there may be no repercussions, but in the short term, your body is severly stressed, and you will ineveitably have hormonal imbalances that you'll have to deal with post comp.

 

[JJFigure]

Is it safe to say eating an amount of calories lower than your BMR needs qualifies as semi-starvation? Even without factoring in the amount of calories burned during exercise?

Thanks for sharing your knowledge, MS - you're awesome!

 

[MS]

"Is it safe to say eating an amount of calories lower than your BMR needs qualifies as semi-starvation? Even without
factoring in the amount of calories burned during exercise? "

No, semi-starvation (if there is such a thing) doesn't necessarily happen at all on a slight calorie restriction as long as your bodyfat doesn't get too low. That's one of the reasons why slow, more moderate diets have less rebound problems. But anytime your bodyfat gets ultra low, you're going to have SOME rebound. Refeeds help a lot to reduce the rebound, so severity can be manipulated by a well planned, long slow diet with increasing refeeds as you get leaner. Crash diets without refeeds at very low body fat levels are bad news. They're also bad news at higher bodyfat levels BTW.

 

[SteelWeaver]

"You don't think 1000 low carb calories per day (which is what is considered a severe calorie restriction for sedentary couch potatoes) combined with all of the exercise you're doing while at a low bodyfat levels qualifies as semi-starvation?? Think again. What you're doing is BAD for your body."

That's sort of why I asked the question - is there a clinical definition of what constitutes starvation, semi-starvation, etc?

I KNOW this is foolish. I know it's bad for my health - I don't know enough to know HOW bad, maybe, but it sure FEELS bad. I guess I'll be able to evaluate it all more clearly afterwards, when my brain is getting some nutrients.

But right now the tunnel only has one exit, and that's the one I'm taking.

"In the long term, if you can control your post comp eating, there may be no repercussions, but in the short term, your body is severly stressed, and you will ineveitably have hormonal imbalances that you'll have to deal with post comp."

This is why I've been asking what I should do afterwards to control things. What's likely to be the healthiest way to get back on track that will still give me the psychological sense that I'm not still depriving myself? I know you said just increase calories, low GI etc - but I'm wondering what TYPE of calories is going to have the best effect. I suppose a large increase in starchy carbs would be asking for trouble. I think I'm going to eat a LOT of yummy veggies, and nuts, and protein bars for the candy feel, and then see what else my body decides it wants ...

Um, what sort of hormonal imbalances? And what do I do about that?


And yeah, I agree with JJ - MS, you are a fantastic resource here - I just can't imagine this board without you here. I really appreciate all the various info/advice etc. you give.

 

[SteelWeaver]

Uuum, one other thing: if I'm going hiking for days and days in the mountains a week after that, I'm gonna need some starchy carbs, aren't I? Lots of (fresh) veggies would be a pain to carry anyway. Whaddaya think?

 

[MS]

Sigh. You're over thinking this WAY too much. It's not really about the type of calories, it's about your ability to control your eating behavior. You won't get sufficient carbs from fibrous veggies to be a decent bodybuilder. If you mean 'starchy' veggies like potatoes and pumpkin, then they are just starch. Nothing magical about them. Any diet that you can stick to that will give you maintenance plus a bit extra calories will work. The 'stick to' is what you have to workout for yourself. Only you know your weaknesses and cravings.

Starvation, in the way you're talking about it, is a state where the body is burning muscle for fuel, leptin levels, thyroid and blood glucose have plummeted, and there is insufficient energy for optimal normal body functions such as cell repair/replacement, hormone production, reproduction, haemoglobin synthesis, replacement of the gut lining, kidney, brain and liver function etc...

Backpacking is mainly a fat-burning activity. If your body is adapted to burning fat, then it doesn't NEED lots of carbs, but it does like to have some. Nuts and whole grains make a great backpacking staple (nice, slow burning fuels), but don't overdo the grains. I take a lot of dried veggies as well (including pumpkin), and rice. Oats for brakfast (with protein powder of course), hummus on wholemeal crackers or pita bread for lunch, Hunza bread (with lots of walnuts and dried apricots in it) for snacks.

 

[SteelWeaver]

Me too: sigh .....

You misunderstand .... I'm not talking long term - beLIEVE me when I say I really dig carbs and have every intention of including all sorts of them in much larger quantities in my diet in a month or so, when I've managed to ease my body back up into a healthier, more balanced state, and will be hitting the weights like an Amazonian warrior. RIGHT NOW what I'm worried about is the few weeks *directly* after this competition, coming off 5 weeks of 800-1000 cals a day, and the huge mental effort it's taken to actually stick with this. It's been a fairly trying challenge, for the understatement of the year.

I just don't want to turn into a huge water blimp like I did last time, just eating whatever for a week - I swear you could leave a dent in me by poking somewhere on my skin, and it took weeks to go away, and by then I was fat again. It was uncomfortable and ugly, and I'm sure not healthy, either.

I know I won't be able to trust my appetite or eyes, or food instincts properly for a few months, thus just wanna know some good food strategies to:

a) prevent the nasty blow up bloat
b) somehow trick my brain into thinking I'm eating a LOT (because I KNOW my appetite is going to be out of control, and my mental controlling resources are stretched pretty thin right now) whilst somehow NOT eating a TON of calories (thus the veggie idea)
c) avoid unreasonably quick fat gain - I KNOW I'm going to gain, and that's fine, but I ain't going down the same road as last time again - I gained TOO much then.

Thanks for the hiking tips. That's pretty much what I'd figured, but I'm taking sf, ff pudding and skim milk powder, too And a jar of peanut butter What's Hunza bread?

And a few Snickers ...

... maybe not

 

[JJFigure]

Well, my snowboarding buddies and I have declared Snickers the perfect boarding food. You throw a couple in your coat; they freeze as your boarding; you find a nice viewpoint, sit down, and enjoy. Or, eat on the lift if you get stuck on a non-high speed chair. Aaahhhh, Snickers.

Peanut M&Ms are our second choice. They don't freeze as nicely as a Snickers does, though.

 

[MS]

Yeah, snickers are a perfect blend of proteins, fats and carbs. LOL

Hunza bread-I don't think you can buy it, so it prolly isn't an option for your trip unless you want to make some before you leave Japan and carry it around for 3 weeks! It's a divine blend of buckwheat, millet, molasses, honey, protein powder, canola oil, apricots, walnuts with some cinnamon and nutmeg thrown in to make it taste like ginger bread. It is dense and travels really well (and keeps well too). That's the backpacking version of the recipe. There is also a 'diet' version that is less exciting.

a) prevent the nasty blow up bloat

Really, the only way to avoid this is to NOT manipulate your electolytes before the show. If you dehydrate and cut your sodium, then you WILL blow up. Of course, if you're lean enough there really is no need to do any drastic water and electrolyte manipulations.


b) somehow trick my brain into thinking I'm eating a LOT (because I KNOW my appetite is going to be out of control, and
my mental controlling resources are stretched pretty thin right now) whilst somehow NOT eating a TON of calories (thus
the veggie idea)

Do the veggies trick your appetite now?? Do you really eat a huge bowl of veggies and then feel "ahhh, now I don't want that Snicker's bar"?

c) avoid unreasonably quick fat gain - I KNOW I'm going to gain, and that's fine, but I ain't going down the same road as
last time again - I gained TOO much then.

Despite what you think, the weight gain in those first two weeks was almost all water/LBM. It's the food beyond the short term that caused your problems. I know it's uncomfortable and looks bad, but it most certainly is not ALL fat (hardly any fat in the first week). So I dunno. It's not something I ever worry about. I find the huge influx of fluid and nutrients to be very anabolic. But I know a LOT of women don't like the look and feel, and the only way to avoid it (besides avoiding dehydration/low sodium) is to continue dieting and exercising as before, and drink gallons of water. Gradually increase your calories I guess. I don't really know. It's not very leptinergic OR anabolic to gradually increase your calories But I guess you won't be weight training for a few weeks, so it's worth a try.