Whole foods PWO?

[cobracock1979]

OK,

This started on another thread, but I fugured rather than hijak the original I woukd start another.

This is eath shattering stuff if its correct (for me anyway)-

It has been put to me that there are definitive studies proving that Insulin spikes DO NOT increase protein synthesis, High GI carbs DO NOT make you fat and Sugars PWO are not needed.

I have had a brief look on the internet and it in fact appears to be some studies showing that insulin spikes PWO do not have any positive effect on glycogen replenishment or protein synthesis.

This means that myself, and anyone elsa using waxy maize/dex/malt PWO could be wasting our time.

It has also been suggested that whole foods (even low GI carbs) PWO are just as effective.

So who uses products to elicit an insulin spike PWO? Who eats whole foods?

Can anyone comment on the fact that high levels of insulin apparently do not have any effect on protein synthesis?

Chime in guys this is important

 

[cobracock1979]

Here's a study posted by EF member gjohnson5 - he claims this to be definative proof that insulin has no effect on protein synthesis. I gotta dissagree.


See post 57 - http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/diet-bodybuilding/mass-please-give-me-your-advice-618806-6.html

Effect of carbohydrate intake on net muscle protein synthesis during recovery from resistance exercise -- Børsheim et al. 96 (2): 674 -- Journal of Applied Physiology


Gjohnson5,

IMO its a a poor study in general. Small group, no mention of the type of carbohydrate used, no quantative figures on the insulin changes. Also, there was NO INGESTION OF PROTEIN with the carbohydrate, so where is the relevance?

Even so, this only goes to show that increases insulin levels DO promote extra protein synthesis via a progressive decrease in protein breakdown (although the effect may be less pronounced than some people say). It also states that the ingestion of amino acids is MORE effective in protein synthesis in a previous study.

This only goes to show that a combination carbohydrate + amino acid shake PWO would be effective in increasing protein synthesis PWO.

I would suggest that if you wish to prove that insulin has no positive effect on protein synthesis PWO, you provide a study on the effect of the addition of carbohydrate + amino's PWO, which gives quantative and qualitive figures on insulin levels, total protein synthesis levels and the types of carbs used.


Net muscle protein balance between synthesis and breakdown did not change in Pla, whereas it improved in the Carb consuming group from -17 ± 3 nmol·ml-1·100 ml leg-1 before drink to an average of -4 ± 4 and 0 ± 3 nmol·ml-1·100 ml leg-1 during the second and third hour after the drink, respectively (P < 0.05 vs. Pla during last hour).The improved net balance in group which ingested carbohydrate was due primarily to a progressive decrease in muscle protein breakdown. We conclude that ingestion of carbohydrates improved net leg protein balance after resistance exercise. However, the effect was minor and delayed compared with the previously reported effect of ingestion of amino acids.

 

[desmond]

Cobra: the prevailing view on bodybuilding.com and propogated by leading nutritionist alan aragon is that the PWO insulin spike is necessary, that high GI carbs are not needed for glycogen synthesis: see extract Fat and Insulin postworkout - UK-Muscle Body Building Community - Bodybuilding Forum (which copies the article)

 

[cobracock1979]

Cobra: the prevailing view on bodybuilding.com and propogated by leading nutritionist alan aragon is that the PWO insulin spike is necessary, that high GI carbs are not needed for glycogen synthesis: see extract Fat and Insulin postworkout - UK-Muscle Body Building Community - Bodybuilding Forum (which copies the article)

Thanks Des,

Interesting stuff.

What it appears from the 2 studies in this thread -

1. Insulin (with or without amino's) slows the progression of muscle breakdown PWO.
2. Only low levels of insulin are required to stop muscle breakdown - an insulin spike is not necessary. This kinda goes in line with GJohnsons theory.
3. Reglycogenation may be independant of insulin
4. Glycogenation efficiency appears to be independant of GI in solid carb sources

OK, does anyone actually have a study showing the effects of inulin and protein synthesis PWO? Even better, the effects of say Whey isolate+sugar/ waxy+amino acids?

 

[gjohnson5]

Cobra: the prevailing view on bodybuilding.com and propogated by leading nutritionist alan aragon is that the PWO insulin spike is necessary, that high GI carbs are not needed for glycogen synthesis: see extract Fat and Insulin postworkout - UK-Muscle Body Building Community - Bodybuilding Forum (which copies the article)

False

Is honey a good source of carbs post-workout? - Page 2 - Bodybuilding.com Forums

Quote straight from Alan Argorn (and I'm not a fan of his either)

If you didn't skip your preworkout carbs, your muscles will be absorbing CHO during (and even after) training. Thus I don't see the urgency. To top things off, the sooner glycogen is refilled, the sooner AMPk is downregulated, and this is not necessarily optimal for those who want to pull out all the stops when it comes to fat oxidation. The point is that it's not universally beneficial to resynthesize glycogen as fast as possible, unless you're talking about endurance performance sports. As for broscientific superstition, it's been so ingrained into the minds of bodybuilders that you must replenish glycogen ASAP that they don't realize that protein synthesis AND the inhibition of protein breakdown can occur maximally via the proper construction & timing of the preworkout meal, which in and of itself nullifies the host of concerns of quick muscle glycogen replenishment postworkout. Bottom line is that you can fulfill your carb requirement with empty calories & succumb to the mythology, or you can beef up the quality of your carbohydrate intake without any of the supposed downsides of slower glycogen replenishment. Unless you train the same set of muscles to glycogen depletion more than once in a day, or are willing to trade nutrient density for convenience, you're better off not compromising the quality of your carb source.

 

[gjohnson5]

So if you see Alan Argorn as the authority on this subject
1. Eat nutrient dense carbohydrates sources for PWO (yes WHOLE Foods)
2. Insulin spike is NOT need PWO

 

[OneBreath]

This might be a bit off topic but i think that WM actually doesn't create an insulin spike like most believe it does. Its benefit is that it replenishes muscle glycogen faster because of its molecular weight and bypassing normal digestion.

I'll try to find the study and post it.

 

[dabuffguy]

Just an FYI, Waxy Maize is NOT a High GI carb.

It's high density makes it pass through the stomach quickly to be absorbed by the small intestines asap.

 

[OneBreath]

Just an FYI, Waxy Maize is NOT a High GI carb.

It's high density makes it pass through the stomach quickly to be absorbed by the small intestines asap.

Yeah, i can't find the study. I even remember a thread on another board where a guy was giving himself a blood glucose test for certain periods after WM ingestion just to test the theory that it didn't cause a spike, and his results proved it.

 

[cobracock1979]

Still good info. I may look at having 50mg WM eevery-other workout when I start cuttin...rather than every day.

Gotta say, I did think it created a slin spike before you told me