for CoolColJ and other jumpers

[thriller]

hands down ccj is right. his training shows. obviously leg curl, extensions and normal calf raises are going to be more effective then doing nothing, but to say that it is more effective then free weight squats, deads, and oly lifts is far from true. using machines is no where near as affective as free weights for athletics.

no one said plyos are usless. i agree that plyos are the most important, but with out the strength its not as affective and safe.

 

[coolcolj]

oh, any suggestions about diet while I'm doing this?

Diet is not my forte, eat frequently

Well I used to be more diet concious, but IMO training is the most important variable, the body will do its best to adapt, you have to give it the right stimulus though.

 

[want2growbig]

I think both of you guys are right. Leg curls are important. So are squats. They also both work the hams and quads, but the curls isolate them more. So I would say the curls are only useful maybe as a 8-10 excerise on the 5x5 routine. Leg curls arn't that good for strength if thats what you want, cus the machine is too jerky for low reps. I always found leg press and squats hit my quads and hams great. But coolcolj, I thought calfs are wayyy more important....there are b-ball players at my school that dunk on the 10' and have strong calfs but have twig quads that squat 225 max. ???confused???

 

[Citruscide]

no one said plyos are usless. i agree that plyos are the most important, but with out the strength its not as affective and safe.

I agree weight training is good... but it is NOT the foundation to becoming a great jumper... good... maybe... but not great.

Plyometrics + a genetic inclination for being a skywalker took me to Nats 2 years in a row. And for those that say High Jumping isn't the same as vertical jumping, that is hogwash... lol

C-ditty

 

[thriller]

I agree weight training is good... but it is NOT the foundation to becoming a great jumper... good... maybe... but not great.

Plyometrics + a genetic inclination for being a skywalker took me to Nats 2 years in a row. And for those that say High Jumping isn't the same as vertical jumping, that is hogwash... lol

C-ditty

so are oyu saying that you can develop good leaping ability without being stronge?

 

[teen1216]

I agree weight training is good... but it is NOT the foundation to becoming a great jumper... good... maybe... but not great.

C-ditty

I would have to disagree that weight training is not the foundation. I think it is the foundation for jumping, and plyometrics are a great tool to build on that.

 

[coolcolj]

I agree weight training is good... but it is NOT the foundation to becoming a great jumper... good... maybe... but not great.

Plyometrics + a genetic inclination for being a skywalker took me to Nats 2 years in a row. And for those that say High Jumping isn't the same as vertical jumping, that is hogwash... lol

C-ditty

Well like you said you have good genetics - not everyone can be like Jordan and have a good jump without any training other than playing ball. The rest of us have to get stronger

Sigh - why do so may BBallers think calves are the be all and end all of jumping power? I guess why its so easy to make money off them if you sell a calf building gadget and promise them 12 inches on their vert in 8 weeks

 

[Citruscide]

Well like you said you have good genetics - not everyone can be like Jordan and have a good jump without any training other than playing ball. The rest of us have to get stronger

Sigh - why do so may BBallers think calves are the be all and end all of jumping power? I guess why its so easy to make money off them if you sell a calf building gadget and promise them 12 inches on their vert in 8 weeks

For one.. I'm not a bballer... LOL I was a track athlete...

Secondly, I never said you didn't have to be STRONG to be a good jumper.. .I did weight training... squats at 350, Leg press, leg curls, calves about 4 days a week... don't get me wrong, it has it's place in conditioning and development.

But to say that it is the FOUNDATION... I would never go THAT far. It definately plays a role...

I suppose if you were a ground-bound turkey whoe couldn't jump 6" off the ground... it would be a good place to start... but then again... you'll never be a sky merchant either...

I had predisposed genetics to give me a great vertical jump and leap... (two different things), that doesn't mean I woke up one day and could jump high. I had to train my ASS off to get to Nationals two years straight... you think that shit was easy? It wasn't. I didn't, and the other athletes didn't just coast through our routines and have amazing verticals.

I don't mean to be disrespectful of you CoolCol... but I find your attitude toward this to be somewhat pretentious. You have to realise that there are MORE ways to train for gaining high vertical that sitting in a gym and lifting weights.

I agree... weights should be added to any "vertical" routine... if you are trying to fly with the merchants in the sky.. .you need sprinting, ab training, work on your soleus and gastrocnemius, glutes and hammies... quads, IMO are the last muscle of importance... but still, not UNimportant.

Olympic high jumpers... plyometrics... plain and simple.

C-ditty

 

[coolcolj]

Who says I sit only in the weight room. But before one can do all those other things you listed at high intensity, one still needs to work on weights anyway, build up those tendons an ligaments as well as strength.

Your putting words into my mouth - I do sprint, I do bounds - I have posted vids of these, I do jump squats, I jump around a lot.
Latter on when I'm ready I will do depth jumps and so forth.

having said that let me quote John Smith on thrower Connie Price Smith

"In many cases Paul, speed and athletic ability becomes hidden because strength to body weight levels are to low. In college basketball Connie ran her butt off for 4 years and ran a 5.1 40 yard dash at 208lbs when she left basketball. Two years of weight training later she weighed 212 and ran a 4.7 and improved her vertical 6 inches without running or jumping in training"
All she did was rack pulls, squats, hang cleans/pulls, bench etc

I also feel triple jumpers are superior to high jumpers
The strength requiremnets for triple jumping are enormous!

There are also quite a few olympic lifters who can vertical jump over 40 inches without doing much jumping at all, and these guys are fast in short distance sprints, some can out run elite 100m sprinters - in fact olympic lifting is pretty much weighted ground based plyos - things suchs as jerks, push presses etc all use and develop the stretch reflex in the hips . Not only that its because of all the heavy squatting and pulls they do, . there are no weak Olympic lifters
There is an Ironmind tape of a the world record holder in the snatch in the 85kg class doing standing jumps onto and off a 44inch high desk (he says his record is 56inches) - he does it so carefree and easily. And when you see the weights he throws around with apparent ease, you know why

Depth jumps do work, I am not disputing that - but there is a time and place for everything. If you weigh 250-300lbs, depth jumping would be the last place you would start at, hell even 200lbs feel a tad heavy sometimes

 

[Citruscide]

I'm sorry CoolCol... it comes across as if you are dispelling everything I am saying as "useless".

you know, you can EASE into plyometrics, and ease into sprinting as well... I think easing into this process can give great results in jumping... my vertical leap was astronomical ... and I don't attribute it to weight training... although I did it, because, at the time, I felt squats, and so on were important to help build up strength.

I didn't just start plyo one day full on hard.... I eased into it... a little bit on day... a llittle the next... until eventually, I was doing box jumps for 30 minutes straight. Running up stairs, hopping up and down the stairs on one foot... for 30 minutes straight (alternating feet of course)... all of this dynamic training is kick-ass...

Of course, I wouldn't suggest THAT regime to a beginner... but to turn them off to plyos all together in favor of weight training... man... they are missing out on the best form of training in the world for speed, agility, quickness and jumping.

C-ditty