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Something i read...

S

Sebass67

New member
I read an article in Muscle Media where Paval Psatsouline states that before you go for a max you just unrack a weight that is 10 to 30% heavier and hold it for 5-10 seconds without doing the weight rack it, put the max you are going for on there and than wait 3-5 mins for your nervous system to adjust and than nail it.

What do you think? Has anyone ever tried this?
 
we do that sometimes but not before a max--we put super heavy weights on (example jimmie dean the other day did this :hes benching 470 area right now so he put on over 500lbs and held it as long as he could then racked it) to do a max set after i would think you just used too much strength i would do max set the next week--ive never seen anyone do a max set after a hold
 
i know i'd rather be deadlifting has done them with both bench and squat, and both with success. I've done it for squat(walkouts) and it helped there so im sure it would help for bench.
 
YEA it's called a static barbell hold. There's a post on here of guys who do this. I personally do and before I knew what it was called I thought I was an idiot but it fools your CNS system to believe when you get under your real max attempt that it's really lighter than what you expected. Only do it when your goin for a max don't do it all the time or else you'll screw yourself out of what your used to doin.
 
Bad idea. If this was a sure thing...you would see people taking extremely heavy openers in pling contests. They would just take their opener at an extreme weight and miss...to help them with their next lift. Well..ok..that is an extreme.

Conserve as much energy that you can on your warm ups when you are going for a 1rm. Make large jumps with reps in the 1-3 rep range.

B True
 
well when I lifted up in ST PETE I did this but not like I normally do. I went ahead and about I believe it was 10 minutes before my opener I loaded 275 on the bar and held it for a good 5 seconds. in fact I remember tellin jimmydean(the best and strongest spot around) that it felt light and I felt I could've benched it.
 
Actually Jimmie Dean almost benched 500 , and static held 585lbs.

I think they work some but i handle lots in my board presses , and my raw still feels kinda heavy. BUt if you do them , you need to do them often. Everyonce in while is like doing accesory everyonce in while. You make they weight feel light. Not sometimes but all the time.
 
Well...as I would relate it to strongman...I would not go over to the heaviest atlas stone and use it for a good rep just before I did all the others for competition. Not even for a partial...or just a cradle.

In Martial Arts...I used to perform with my bo staff in tournaments and used a heavy and thick staff to warm up with and about 3 minutes before I was up...I grabbed my light and thinner one to help to increase speed. I wasn't going for a maximum weight attempt though.

I just don't know any 1,000 lb squatters who warm up by doing a partial, walk out, or static hold with a super heavy weight on contest day. In training...sure...but on contest day...don't think that it is something that I would do. I am not a powerlifter though...not at all.

B True
 
B FOLD you might not be a powerlifter but you sure as hell know enough stuff and at least compete in strongman. But I know for myself that the static holds due work and it works for others. And different things do work for different people this might be one of them. And I do agree with JAY it shouldn't only be once maybe every 4 weeks or so we should do a static hold with more weight than we know we can bench. In fact I'm going to try this and see how it works.
 
I am with Cubanito on this one. I am going to do these following speed work instead of doing a couple of heavy singles going into this next meet. Cubanito has a good incentive to hope that this plan works. Ha ha.

B.
 
I have done static holds before...and agree with the thought and principle of them. I just would not do them on contest day...in the gym fine...but not on contest day.

B True
 
actually zzulu may be right on this. I'm no t sure where, but I have read that Ben Johnson was seen doing a 3 rep max in the squat about 10 minutes beofre he ran his fastest time. I am not sure how, or if this would work in powerlifting but there may be something there.
 
Yeah, Ben Johnson does a 6RM (not to failure) with about 600 pounds before his sprints. I think Charles Poliquin made mention of it in one of his recent articles.

"I am not sure how, or if this would work in powerlifting but there may be something there."

He's simply potentiating the nervous system. Getting the body used to really heavy weight then lowering the weight so it seems lighter. This is analogous to almost everything in life if you think about it. Baseball players also use this principle btw.

-Zulu
 
YEA thanks BRAIN and I know I better hope and pray that you don't bomb at your next meet. And now with my back a lil messed up it'll be easier for you to turn me into a pretzel:p . I think when I get back to training I'll try something a lil different i'll do static holds after my best on ME movement or maybe just at the end of that workout so I don't scar myself for all other movements.
 
Ok...think about this. Next time you go to the gym for leg day...I want you to do a 6 rep max on the squat. Not to failure...but a 6 rep MAX none the less. When you are done I want you to see how your legs feel and think if you could run the fastest sprint race of your life right after that. I can barely walk after doing a 6 rep max (and at 600..c'mon). What did he weigh...180? 600 x 6 and not to failure, no support gear...and for 6 reps...then ran the fastest sprint in the world?

Think about this for a minute.

I am not a sprinter by any means...unless the dinner bell is rung...but I do compete in a very athletic sport. I do events such as a harness pull. Last October I did a harness pull with a 70,000 lb firetruck for 75 feet. There is no way in heck that I could have had a good pull on that event had I already done a 3 or 6 rep max on the squat first.

I do feel that a light warm up can help with your max effort work. Several sets of singles can help a lot...as you work up in weight.

B True
 
I don't feel all that bad after a set of squats (not too failure).

All I am telling you is that:

1.) There is plenty of anectodal evidence out there and obviously I"m not the only one who's heard of this.

2.) There are physiological principles backing this up.

3.) Empirical data has proven it works.

Now if YOU think it doens't work, that is your opinion.

-Zulu
 
ZZuluZ:
"I don't feel all that bad after a set of squats (not too failure)."
.....do a true 6 rep max...is hard. I don't care if it is a 1RM or a 20RM...it is hard and you should feel fatigued afterward.

"All I am telling you is that:"
.....yes, you are telling me but not showing me any evidence. I have competed in strength and endurance sports...and know that my body would not perform well on contest day if I did a 3-6RM before my heavy set or event.

"1.) There is plenty of anectodal evidence out there and obviously I"m not the only one who's heard of this."
.....Where? From what I see, people on here like aka-tapout and powerlifterjay are not saying to do this type of thing on contest day either. They say that it is a good training tool...but not a contest tool.

"2.) There are physiological principles backing this up. "
.....Where? Do you mean unracking the weight so you know how it feels? What if you unrack it and it feels like the weight of the world? Talk about losing TONS of confidence. Once again, are you talking about doing a 6RM or a walkout with a super heavy weight on contest day?


"3.) Empirical data has proven it works. "
.....Where? I am not for sure if I see the guys of the WSB club doing a 6rm before they walk up to the platform to do a world record squat. I'd like to think that Chuck V had taken some serious weights in the gym on various exercises before he squatted 1k. I have a very good friend who set the world record in the squat and bench press in 1995 with a squat of 1004 at a bodyweight of 239. He did NOT do a 6RM or a walkout with 1200 before he went up there to squat 1004. Hence...I can make an empirical observation on this theory. This is just an empirical observation from world class athletes. I don't see pljay doing a 6rm on the bench press just before he goes for a new PR at a meet either...but maybe I am wrong...I am not a powerlifter.


"Now if YOU think it doens't work, that is your opinion."
.....Yes...I think and have observed. Give it a try...I encourage you to do so. Encourage GF, Chuck V, Steve Goggins, etc...to try this too.

I don't mean to say this as a flame at all, just trying to express my point. There are tons of theories out there and the rumors that fly from them only create problems. A very good friend of mine is a serious squatter (900+) and does not use this train of thought. He also says that if you can walk out a weight...you can probably squat it with the way that today's support gear is designed.

Just my thoughts...no harm intended...just trying to get some more thoughts on the subject.

Respectfully

B True
 
Btrue,

" .....do a true 6 rep max...is hard. I don't care if it is a 1RM or a 20RM...it is hard and you should feel fatigued afterward. "

I, personally don't feel all that fatigued. However, if it's a 10RM or 20RM I would be.

"...yes, you are telling me but not showing me any evidence. I have competed in strength and endurance sports...and know that my body would not perform well on contest day if I did a 3-6RM before my heavy set or event."

I have read a great deal on this topic and feel confident there is evidence to back it up. Lots of it can be found on T-mag.

" .....Where? From what I see, people on here like aka-tapout and powerlifterjay are not saying to do this type of thing on contest day either. They say that it is a good training tool...but not a contest tool. "

From Strength Coaches such as Francis, Poliquin, King, Tsatsouline...just to name a few.


" .....Where? Do you mean unracking the weight so you know how it feels? What if you unrack it and it feels like the weight of the world? Talk about losing TONS of confidence. Once again, are you talking about doing a 6RM or a walkout with a super heavy weight on contest day? "

We are confusing both issues here. I'll explain further down.

"....Where? I am not for sure if I see the guys of the WSB club doing a 6rm before they walk up to the platform to do a world record squat. I'd like to think that Chuck V had taken some serious weights in the gym on various exercises before he squatted 1k. I have a very good friend who set the world record in the squat and bench press in 1995 with a squat of 1004 at a bodyweight of 239. He did NOT do a 6RM or a walkout with 1200 before he went up there to squat 1004. Hence...I can make an empirical observation on this theory. This is just an empirical observation from world class athletes. I don't see pljay doing a 6rm on the bench press just before he goes for a new PR at a meet either...but maybe I am wrong...I am not a powerlifter.
"

I think you've got both issues confused. A supramaximal hold is used before a 1RM attempt. However, in the example I was using with ben johnson he is going from a 6RM to a SPRINT not 1RM. Hence, he is still getting the neural benefit you would get from doing a 1RM after a supramaximal set.

" .....Yes...I think and have observed. Give it a try...I encourage you to do so. Encourage GF, Chuck V, Steve Goggins, etc...to try this too. "

I don't recommend a 6RM for powerlifters, it was an example of neural potentiation. For powerlifters a supramaximal set might be more ideal.

Cheers,

-Zulu
 
Ok...you have stated that Coaches/Trainers suggest this theory. You have not given me any world class athletes who go by this. Any powerlifters do this?

I still reccomend you doing this. And I still argue that doing an all out 6RM WILL fatigue you. How can it not? It is a 6 Rep Maximum!!! That means JUST shy of failure. That means that you could NOT have done 7 reps...ONLY 6.

I just look at powerlifters and other world class athletes and don't see them doing this. I am sure that there are articles that say that this theory MIGHT work...but I don't see the top lifters doing it. There are also articles out there that say that V2G will enhance this and that and this and that...and that andro is the answer to your prayers...but that does not make them true.

I will stick with what is proven.

B True
 
"Ok...you have stated that Coaches/Trainers suggest this theory. You have not given me any world class athletes who go by this. Any powerlifters do this?
"

Ben Johnson for one. Hundreds of strength athletes. Again, Poliquin, Tsatsouline, Hatfield, King are renowned coaches with many atheltes. Not too mention many of them have amazing poundages. Including Hatfield who's squatted 1014 at age 45.

" I still reccomend you doing this. And I still argue that doing an all out 6RM WILL fatigue you. How can it not? It is a 6 Rep Maximum!!! That means JUST shy of failure. That means that you could NOT have done 7 reps...ONLY 6. "

Where did I say this? Ben did a 6RM with a weight he could have done EIGHT times.

"
I just look at powerlifters and other world class athletes and don't see them doing this. I am sure that there are articles that say that this theory MIGHT work...but I don't see the top lifters doing it. There are also articles out there that say that V2G will enhance this and that and this and that...and that andro is the answer to your prayers...but that does not make them true."

I'm just glad most people are willing to evaluate the current weightlifting paradigms. Again, this is a very well known technique. Whether or not it should be used on contest day is debatable? How it should be utilized is debatable. That it is effective is without doubt IMHO.

-Zulu
 
When did a 6RM become an 8RM? If it is a 6RM...and he could have done 8 with it...then it was NOT a 6RM. He did 6 reps with what would have been an 8 Rep Max set. So...he could do 8 reps with 600 with no support gear and under 200lbs? Seems as if the story is getting bigger.

My entire post(s) deals with if it should be one on contest day. I am glad that you see it as debatable...that means that it is not a fact.

You still hold true that Ben Johnson squatted 600 for 6 reps (could have done it for 8) before setting the world record? Where is this literature?

You say that this is very well known...this technique. What are you speaking of? Maybe I am totally misunderstanding you here...but are you saying that lifters should do a 6RM before a meet PR, they should do a static hold with a super heavy weight on contest day, or that they should train with the idealology of including these techniques into their contest preperation?

B True
 
My personal experience with the issue a hand:

Don't mind the crappy PR's that I hit. I'm a weak biatch.


Squats:
Warmed up, missed 315, walkout wth 345, hit 315 PR

Bench:
Lockouts up to about 315 or so, benched 215 raw PR



these were both a few months ago. Only times I tried that. I am gonna work wakouts into my routine when I am nearing a max squat. Gonna try the static holds for bench soon too.
 
Ive only tried this on bench and what i did was work up to a heavy single on 4"lockouts then after those (with sufficeint rest) i went and did sets of close grip benches smashing my old PR's on them.
I've never really tried them on squats yet. I may try soon
 
" When did a 6RM become an 8RM? If it is a 6RM...and he could have done 8 with it...then it was NOT a 6RM. He did 6 reps with what would have been an 8 Rep Max set. So...he could do 8 reps with 600 with no support gear and under 200lbs? Seems as if the story is getting bigger.
"

I never said 6RM...I said 6 reps. If I did say 6RM then that was a mistake.

" My entire post(s) deals with if it should be one on contest day. I am glad that you see it as debatable...that means that it is not a fact. "

Indeed. I don't claim to know very much about contest like preparation as I've never experienced it first hand and can only rely on what I've read on the issue. However, I think there is solid evidence that a supramaximal weight before a 1RM attempt may be beneficial [if not used previously, and done properly]

" You still hold true that Ben Johnson squatted 600 for 6 reps (could have done it for 8) before setting the world record? Where is this literature? "

Ok, well since you seem to doubt me on this....I'll get a link for you if I can find it. Maybe I was slightly innacurate, but I believe most of that was correct.

" You say that this is very well known...this technique. What are you speaking of? Maybe I am totally misunderstanding you here...but are you saying that lifters should do a 6RM before a meet PR, they should do a static hold with a super heavy weight on contest day, or that they should train with the idealology of including these techniques into their contest preperation? "

I realize I've been rather vague. I was referring to neural potentation in general. For the powerlifter, a supraximal weight is ideal.....for a sprinter a 6RM is more beneficial. For a bodybuilder a 20RM after a 1RM is most beneficial. However the principal is the same. However, these techniques will not work forever and should be used sparingly. They work very well from what I've read however.

Link coming, hopefully.

Cheers,

-Zulu
 
Great, a thread I really like :D ....

You can see baseball plyers doing a variation of this all the time... They use several heavy wieghts on the bat while warming up, swing it several times, then when they take them off it feels really light!!!

Back to the original idea about static holds BEFORE a Max attempt..... Im not sure if this works for a Max, but would really like to see if this works while training, such as on a DE day or regular bench day.... I read in another post where they recommended to do these static holds for 3 sets of 10 seconds after benching. They said this would increase there bench like 40lbs after 2-3 months!! Not sure the exact #'s but they said it really worked. I think something like this would really work for the CNS, the joints and all the other body parts to get used to the heavy weights!!
Any ideas on this?
 
The article did not say he did 600 for any reps. The program does not discuss intensity or percentages either. It also does not say that Ben Johnson actually DID do this before he set the record...it just said that Ben Johnson would do this...as in for instance...

The article does state the use of a 3RM...that means a 3 rep maximum weight. I am still not for sure if you mean that a 3RM is a max or not...very confusing.

With training...this could be a very good idea. I may actually use these for a pre-exhaust. I think that so many times people miss maximum attempts because they were not properly warmed up, they did not have their mind set correct, they just planned on missing it, or their form was incorrect.

Still...when I see 1000 lb squatters doing this on contest day...I'll believe that it works on contest day.

B True
 
I have heard of him doing a 6 rep squat with 600 tho....but I really forget where. I've read HUNDREDS of articles and I can't exactly remember which ones contain which info, sorry.

I just wanted to make a general point.

"
Still...when I see 1000 lb squatters doing this on contest day...I'll believe that it works on contest day. "

The reason why elite powerlifters may not do it may be due too the fact that they have probably already achieved neural perfection.

-Zulu
 
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