Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below Personally I would not. Leg curls ( for me) don't hit the hammies like reg deads. Did the leg curls and got nowhere-now with the deads have put on some nice muscle. Would really just stick with the basics here-squats, deads, good mornings, pull thrus, sldl. Squats done correctly will really do more than all the leg curls in the world-valerie
slow progress in squats?
- Thread starter teirrah
- Start date
spatts said:
YES!
I am not in favor of leg extensions at all except SOMETIMES to pre fatigue the thighs before squats or leg presses. This is done by very large powerful bodybuilders in an effort to reduce the required weight inn the compound exercise....it's more about safety than anything else. But one really has no real business doing this until you are already using A LOT of weight in the squat.
Leg presses are inferior to squats and lunges are a waste of time for most people IMHO, save for PERHAPS contest prep.
A lot of ladies do lunges in an effort to work the butt....you want a butt?...then start deep squating like a good bodybuilder or power lifter. My wife had your typical asian flat ass(no butt) the only thing that helped was deep squating and now she has a great butt he he he .
All you need to every do for leg mass, strength and dare I say shape, are squats and deadlifts of various types with good mornings or heavy strict hyperextensions as supplements for the weak link which is often the errectors.
The best advice on proper training now comes form Power lifters for the most part as bodybuilding has almost lost what works for the genetically typical steroid free trainee.
The best bodybuilding advice amoungst the pro's in the last 10 years has come form Dorian Yates. His book is quite good and I recommend it...although tone done the intensity a bit if steroid free and be sure to train in cycles. Even the genetic freak Yates said that he never trained ALL OUT all the time.
Rememeber this......if your weights are going up then keep up the good work as you are recuperating well. When the gains stop, increasing volume and adding the "smaller exercises" is normally the worst thing you can do
Yet that said.....there are some people that can do a fair bit of variety in leg training, and not even work that hard on the squat, and they gain well but I am certain that they are not your genetically typical steroid free trainee.
RG
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anya said:
You will feel the sacrum and butt "dip" downward when you reach that magic depth....this is when the hams and glutes are activated strongly. This means squatting pretty deep like a power lifter or Olympic lifter. Deep means to the point where the tops of the thighs are at least parallel to the ground. This is actually BELOW parallel.
NOTE: Some people, like the ledgendary Tom Platz, could safely squat to rock bottom. Not everyone is built to do this without straining the sacral/lower lumbar region.
Have someone look for the "dip" I talked about...and you can feel it too.
RG
First a big thank you to everyone who took time and trouble to post suggestions, and sorry not to have replied more quickly.
It looks like both Real Gains and Cornholio agree that the leg press can go but Corn suggests keeping the hacks and doing lunges and reversing the order ... Corn, I've seen the avatar of your quads and they are superb, just awesome. When you started, what did you do in the beginning rather than what did you do once you had those legs? Needless to say at the moment I don't have any size, strength or shape to speak of and this is what I want. So.... I am going to do 3 sets of squats, 2 of deads and do a progressive cycle. Thank you for the detail of the posts, this board is exceptional, isn't it?
It looks like both Real Gains and Cornholio agree that the leg press can go but Corn suggests keeping the hacks and doing lunges and reversing the order ... Corn, I've seen the avatar of your quads and they are superb, just awesome. When you started, what did you do in the beginning rather than what did you do once you had those legs? Needless to say at the moment I don't have any size, strength or shape to speak of and this is what I want. So.... I am going to do 3 sets of squats, 2 of deads and do a progressive cycle. Thank you for the detail of the posts, this board is exceptional, isn't it?
Be careful to not fall into the trap of looking at what others do in their training. People like Corn are not genetically typical and can get away with doing much more variety than the typical person. We are kind of programed to look to people that are well developed for advice but the thing is most of theses people are somewhat blessed genetically and can train in many different ways and grow well.
Corn is not "wrong" as he is doing what works well for him and trying to offer his experince as a help to you. You can always try to do more variety like Corn does and include hacks and the like and it just may work for you but personally I don't think it is the best way for you to train.
I am not trying to step on Corns toes or anyone elses toes, I am just trying to offer what I think works best for the majority of trainees.
I would honestly say that about 90-95% of the genral public have average genetics for lifting at best. I don't know how many times I have seen people quit lifting because they cannot get results...still others turn to steroids very early in the lifting life in an effort to make gains...take enough gear and you can train any way you like and still make good gains....not so for the typical natural trainee.
I too can do a lot of variety and still grow will but I am not genetically typical at all as I can hold to alean 215 pounds at 5'10" without any steroids at all. Even though I can do a lot of variety I have found out that I can get better results by sticking primarily to the basics and by training hard in a lower volume.
If you are having a hard time gaining mass and strength with squats alone then you are doing something wrong....perhaps you are not training the squat right or with enough hard work or with progression in weights used as a primary focus. Perhaps you are just not recuperating and are in the gym too many times per week or doing too much cardio or not getting enough sleep or food.
Try to get "all your ducks in a row".
#1. Train no more often than 3 days per week on a three way split. ya I know...most people train more often than that but then again how many of them are genetically typical. If they are gentically typical how many of them use roughly the same weight in each exercise year after year ...LOTS!
Sure someone like Spatts might train 4-5 days per week but some days are easier days as she is training in the West Side power lifting way so it's a smart way to train if you have fairly good genetics..., Spatts is NOT genetically typical and is fact probably very gifted. Also, if Spatts and myself find that sticking the the basics in "raw training" works the best, and we are somewhat blessed genetically I think, then doing more volume and the "little exercises" is not likely to be the best thing for you to do. AH...but some say that Spatts is a power lifter and as such isn't concerned about betting bigger....well most power lifters are plenty big and for good reasons...you cannot lift a great deal of weight and not be big. Spatts knows that you can only get so strong without getting bigger. Spatts is pretty darn big for a women.
Powerlifters train for strength and size follows and many bodybuilders could learn a thing or two from that mentality.
The natural bodybuilder should focus on progressive strength as a primary goal. The reps can be a little higher than the power lifter but the focus should be much the same.
#2. EAT! Eat well. Eat at least three regular meals per day and then add a couple protein shakes each day as well. You don't have to pig out but you do need to eat a fair amount of food or you will not grow. Just avoid saturated fats. Eat plenty of Omega 3 and 6 oils. Try to limit refined food, especially junk food.
#3. Limit cardio. You CANNOT gain well in mass and strength while doing a lot of cardio. Cardio three times a week for 30 minutes at a time is enough.
#4. Get plenty of sleep....at least 8 hours every night.
#5. The rest of your training needs to be much on the same lines as your squats....basic, brief, and intense. Train in cycles(periodization) Focus on adding small and then tiny bits of weight to the bars weekly (micro loading)
The two most important exercises any natural trainee can do are the squat and some type of deadlift so give these priority. Also work the rest of your body hard with the big basic compound movements.
RG
Corn is not "wrong" as he is doing what works well for him and trying to offer his experince as a help to you. You can always try to do more variety like Corn does and include hacks and the like and it just may work for you but personally I don't think it is the best way for you to train.
I am not trying to step on Corns toes or anyone elses toes, I am just trying to offer what I think works best for the majority of trainees.
I would honestly say that about 90-95% of the genral public have average genetics for lifting at best. I don't know how many times I have seen people quit lifting because they cannot get results...still others turn to steroids very early in the lifting life in an effort to make gains...take enough gear and you can train any way you like and still make good gains....not so for the typical natural trainee.
I too can do a lot of variety and still grow will but I am not genetically typical at all as I can hold to alean 215 pounds at 5'10" without any steroids at all. Even though I can do a lot of variety I have found out that I can get better results by sticking primarily to the basics and by training hard in a lower volume.
If you are having a hard time gaining mass and strength with squats alone then you are doing something wrong....perhaps you are not training the squat right or with enough hard work or with progression in weights used as a primary focus. Perhaps you are just not recuperating and are in the gym too many times per week or doing too much cardio or not getting enough sleep or food.
Try to get "all your ducks in a row".
#1. Train no more often than 3 days per week on a three way split. ya I know...most people train more often than that but then again how many of them are genetically typical. If they are gentically typical how many of them use roughly the same weight in each exercise year after year ...LOTS!
Sure someone like Spatts might train 4-5 days per week but some days are easier days as she is training in the West Side power lifting way so it's a smart way to train if you have fairly good genetics..., Spatts is NOT genetically typical and is fact probably very gifted. Also, if Spatts and myself find that sticking the the basics in "raw training" works the best, and we are somewhat blessed genetically I think, then doing more volume and the "little exercises" is not likely to be the best thing for you to do. AH...but some say that Spatts is a power lifter and as such isn't concerned about betting bigger....well most power lifters are plenty big and for good reasons...you cannot lift a great deal of weight and not be big. Spatts knows that you can only get so strong without getting bigger. Spatts is pretty darn big for a women.
Powerlifters train for strength and size follows and many bodybuilders could learn a thing or two from that mentality.
The natural bodybuilder should focus on progressive strength as a primary goal. The reps can be a little higher than the power lifter but the focus should be much the same.
#2. EAT! Eat well. Eat at least three regular meals per day and then add a couple protein shakes each day as well. You don't have to pig out but you do need to eat a fair amount of food or you will not grow. Just avoid saturated fats. Eat plenty of Omega 3 and 6 oils. Try to limit refined food, especially junk food.
#3. Limit cardio. You CANNOT gain well in mass and strength while doing a lot of cardio. Cardio three times a week for 30 minutes at a time is enough.
#4. Get plenty of sleep....at least 8 hours every night.
#5. The rest of your training needs to be much on the same lines as your squats....basic, brief, and intense. Train in cycles(periodization) Focus on adding small and then tiny bits of weight to the bars weekly (micro loading)
The two most important exercises any natural trainee can do are the squat and some type of deadlift so give these priority. Also work the rest of your body hard with the big basic compound movements.
RG
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Thanks for your reply Realgains, and hope you don't think that I thought Cornholio's advice was "wrong". Yikes, I have nothing but total respect for the both of you and really appreciate all of the input on this thread from you guys and everyone else.
Since volume and variety aren't really giving me much in the way of size, strength or shape, and since I am in no way genetically gifted and I'm not juicing, the proposal of just doing squats and bringing in deads with periodization and tiny increments of weight sounds great.
I also will change my split to 3 days aweek. This will be the toughie as I love going to the gym but hey.
Anyway, thank you.
Since volume and variety aren't really giving me much in the way of size, strength or shape, and since I am in no way genetically gifted and I'm not juicing, the proposal of just doing squats and bringing in deads with periodization and tiny increments of weight sounds great.
I also will change my split to 3 days aweek. This will be the toughie as I love going to the gym but hey.
Anyway, thank you.
You could still go to the gym 5 days per week but just do some cardio on the non weight training days, and you could do your abb work on those days instead of on the weight training days. Both moderate cardio and abb work will probably not have a negative impact on your recuperative ability.
Many people just don't fully understand how sytemically draining intense lifting is and how difficult it is to recuperate from training with weights 5 and 6 days per week....at least for the typical person (90%of the general public I think)
Be careful with the cardio and other sports as they will seriously eat away at your recuperative powers if not moderated.
Here is a good rotuine for you but be sure to read my sticky post above for more info on techique, micro loading, intensifiers, and cycing of training effort. Also read my post on deadlifting.
MONDAY
warm up on the tread mill for 5 minutes.
Rest about 2 minutes between stes unless I say otherwise.
Be sure to do do a warm up set or two before the first exercise of each body part. DON'T get carried away with warm ups.
Work hard ..until you cannot do another rep in good form.
be sure to practise progression in weights used in small and then tiny increments. YOU MUST buy some tiny plates www.fractionalplates.com
Train in cycles as I have mentioned.
1. Incline bench press. 2 working sets of 6- 8
You can use a barbell in a bench set at 30 degrees or you can use the Hammer incline bench press.
2. Decline bench press or hammer decline bench press or machine dips with elbows flaired out to sides. 2 sets of 6-8. Take a medium grip on the benches...that is when the bar touches your chest your upper arm should be straight up and down. This gives the best biomechanics for muscle building. In the dip use a medium to narrow grip and flair the elbows outward but don't get carried away with this.
3. Toe presses in a leg press machine. 3-4 sest of 10-15 reps. Reduce the weight used for each successive set. rest only 90 seconds between sets. Push very hard and fight for the last cm . All the way up and all the way down in a controlled way. Rest pause reps after going to failure. THE PAIN!
4. One of the following ...lying tricep extensions with an E-Z curl bar, machine dips with a narrow grip and elbows close to body or close grip bench presses with a 15 inch grip. 3 sets of 8
WEDNESDAY.
1. Squats. ..check out my posts on technique and the sticky. 3 sets of 10 after 2-3 warm ups. Rest 4 minutes between sets.
2. Stiff leg deadlifts with straps 2 sets of 10 after one warm up. Be darn sure to read my post on deadlifting! rest 3-4 minutes between sets.
3. Hyperextensions holding a weight or with a barbell on your neck/traps 1 set of 10-12
4. Shrugs with a barbell, dumbells or machine 2 sets of 10. use starps.
FRIDAY
1. Pulldowns with a shoulder width barbell curl grip(palms facing you) use straps when you start to use heavy weight. 2 sets of 8-10
2. Some type of row 1-2 sets of 8-10 Be sure to arch the low back as you pull and try to hold the weight in the fully contracted position for a second. Rows are done to work the upper mid back muscle as much as the lats. They also strongly work the rear delts. I like dumbell rows with one knee and hand on the side of a bench..and also the hammer iso-lateral row.
3. Overhead press with a barbell and in a bench set at 80 degrees and pressing to the front. OR... some type of machine overhead press, hammer is good. 3 sets of 6-8. This exercise will work the entire shoulder complex and the triceps well. I find that lower reps of about 6 work best for weight progression in this exercise.
4. Barbell curls 3 sets of 8-10. I like to do rest pause reps after going to failure...see my sticky.
TUESDAY & SATURDAY you can do abbs and some cardio. OR...you can do the abbs on one of your weight training days. If you work them hard you only need to train them once per week but few people can handle this reduction in abb traing MENTALLY.
You can do some mild cardio on THURSDAYS too if you like but if gains are really hard to come by then reduce the cardio. Some people have to eliminate cardio in order to make good gains. You can always increase the cardio after you have gotten a measure of mass and strength.
ABBS.. Try hanging knee ups from a bar. Try to curl the lower torso up towards the chest with bent knees. 2 sets of as many as you can do.
Cruches with a rolled bath towel under your low back for a better pre stretch and a better contraction. 2 sets of 10-20. Use weight when you can do more than 20. Swiss ball crunches are great too.
CARDIO...I find the best exercise for burning calories and working the aerobic system WITHOUT eating up muscle tissue is steep incline walking at a good clip on a tread mill. Be sure to watch TV or you will go buggy.
NOTE: Nandi12, Mod at cuttingedgemuscle.com ,has posted proof that whey protein taken prior to cardio(like 30 minutes) strongly helps to preserve muscle tissue. The same WAS NOT seen with a pre- cardio meal of regular protein or a pre meal of carbs.
Good luck and train hard.
AND as I have said be darn sure to get plenty of sleep and plenty of good food. Whey protein, a good multi vitimin with perhaps extra vit C and E is all you need for supplements. If you are not eating plenty of Tuna , Salmon or Sardines then I would get some flax seed oil or a combo omega 3/6 oil like Udo's Choice oil. Seriuosly limit saturated fats and junk food.
RG
Many people just don't fully understand how sytemically draining intense lifting is and how difficult it is to recuperate from training with weights 5 and 6 days per week....at least for the typical person (90%of the general public I think)
Be careful with the cardio and other sports as they will seriously eat away at your recuperative powers if not moderated.
Here is a good rotuine for you but be sure to read my sticky post above for more info on techique, micro loading, intensifiers, and cycing of training effort. Also read my post on deadlifting.
MONDAY
warm up on the tread mill for 5 minutes.
Rest about 2 minutes between stes unless I say otherwise.
Be sure to do do a warm up set or two before the first exercise of each body part. DON'T get carried away with warm ups.
Work hard ..until you cannot do another rep in good form.
be sure to practise progression in weights used in small and then tiny increments. YOU MUST buy some tiny plates www.fractionalplates.com
Train in cycles as I have mentioned.
1. Incline bench press. 2 working sets of 6- 8
You can use a barbell in a bench set at 30 degrees or you can use the Hammer incline bench press.
2. Decline bench press or hammer decline bench press or machine dips with elbows flaired out to sides. 2 sets of 6-8. Take a medium grip on the benches...that is when the bar touches your chest your upper arm should be straight up and down. This gives the best biomechanics for muscle building. In the dip use a medium to narrow grip and flair the elbows outward but don't get carried away with this.
3. Toe presses in a leg press machine. 3-4 sest of 10-15 reps. Reduce the weight used for each successive set. rest only 90 seconds between sets. Push very hard and fight for the last cm . All the way up and all the way down in a controlled way. Rest pause reps after going to failure. THE PAIN!
4. One of the following ...lying tricep extensions with an E-Z curl bar, machine dips with a narrow grip and elbows close to body or close grip bench presses with a 15 inch grip. 3 sets of 8
WEDNESDAY.
1. Squats. ..check out my posts on technique and the sticky. 3 sets of 10 after 2-3 warm ups. Rest 4 minutes between sets.
2. Stiff leg deadlifts with straps 2 sets of 10 after one warm up. Be darn sure to read my post on deadlifting! rest 3-4 minutes between sets.
3. Hyperextensions holding a weight or with a barbell on your neck/traps 1 set of 10-12
4. Shrugs with a barbell, dumbells or machine 2 sets of 10. use starps.
FRIDAY
1. Pulldowns with a shoulder width barbell curl grip(palms facing you) use straps when you start to use heavy weight. 2 sets of 8-10
2. Some type of row 1-2 sets of 8-10 Be sure to arch the low back as you pull and try to hold the weight in the fully contracted position for a second. Rows are done to work the upper mid back muscle as much as the lats. They also strongly work the rear delts. I like dumbell rows with one knee and hand on the side of a bench..and also the hammer iso-lateral row.
3. Overhead press with a barbell and in a bench set at 80 degrees and pressing to the front. OR... some type of machine overhead press, hammer is good. 3 sets of 6-8. This exercise will work the entire shoulder complex and the triceps well. I find that lower reps of about 6 work best for weight progression in this exercise.
4. Barbell curls 3 sets of 8-10. I like to do rest pause reps after going to failure...see my sticky.
TUESDAY & SATURDAY you can do abbs and some cardio. OR...you can do the abbs on one of your weight training days. If you work them hard you only need to train them once per week but few people can handle this reduction in abb traing MENTALLY.
You can do some mild cardio on THURSDAYS too if you like but if gains are really hard to come by then reduce the cardio. Some people have to eliminate cardio in order to make good gains. You can always increase the cardio after you have gotten a measure of mass and strength.
ABBS.. Try hanging knee ups from a bar. Try to curl the lower torso up towards the chest with bent knees. 2 sets of as many as you can do.
Cruches with a rolled bath towel under your low back for a better pre stretch and a better contraction. 2 sets of 10-20. Use weight when you can do more than 20. Swiss ball crunches are great too.
CARDIO...I find the best exercise for burning calories and working the aerobic system WITHOUT eating up muscle tissue is steep incline walking at a good clip on a tread mill. Be sure to watch TV or you will go buggy.
NOTE: Nandi12, Mod at cuttingedgemuscle.com ,has posted proof that whey protein taken prior to cardio(like 30 minutes) strongly helps to preserve muscle tissue. The same WAS NOT seen with a pre- cardio meal of regular protein or a pre meal of carbs.
Good luck and train hard.
AND as I have said be darn sure to get plenty of sleep and plenty of good food. Whey protein, a good multi vitimin with perhaps extra vit C and E is all you need for supplements. If you are not eating plenty of Tuna , Salmon or Sardines then I would get some flax seed oil or a combo omega 3/6 oil like Udo's Choice oil. Seriuosly limit saturated fats and junk food.
RG
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SteelWeaver
New member
Hey teirrah! Slow progress in squats? Boy can I relate! It tool me forever and ever to get to where I am now, which is pretty much nowhere compared to most here. For the first time in my life I'm gaining like I've always heard other people gain, and it's all to do with the simplified leg routine - squats, about 5 sets, increasing weight on each set, all for 5 reps, explosive, about once or twice a week, not always to failure, and front squats the same, once or twice a week - for a total of squatting 2-3 times a week. Then with cleans and snatches as well. Ont the day I work out alone I do some SLDL's or GM's or full deads, and some pull throughs or glute ham raises, or leg curls, as well as chest and back work. Still rying to figure out how to shortenthis session, but my bench has gone up a fair bit too with the lowered volume.
I know your trainer works you really really hard, which is wonderful for testing mental strength, but as I've discovered, doesn't do much for physical strength. Too much volume and too much failure work and too much isolation work = no gains.
Good luck!
I know your trainer works you really really hard, which is wonderful for testing mental strength, but as I've discovered, doesn't do much for physical strength. Too much volume and too much failure work and too much isolation work = no gains.
Good luck!
