So I am a long time user of Clomid and other SERMs for PCT. I've been told many time over that SERMs are not required to have a successful PCT and that the cons out weigh the PROs when using SERMs. Will a PCT of Formastanzol, and the PCT/Unleashed stack be strong enough after running Beastdrol for 4 weeks.....and how does that combination get the boys back in action and my test levels on the increase? I have all three products but am still on the fence about not running Clomid.
Of course it will work for pct and in fact I will go as far to say it will work far better then the "ancient historical" way would.
Hate on it if you want but forma-stanzol works for pct!!!
Forma-stanzol has both suicide aromatase inhibitors and serms in it so yes you can replace the Clomid or nolva with it.. Its deff the much better choice of PCT after a tren or deca cycle for as nether clomid nor nolvadex will address High prolactin/ progesterone and in fact nolvadex will upregulate the progesterone receptor.
Some good threads to read my friend.
1.
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/b...roid-best-pct-best-gyno-treatment-698487.html this will help explain forma-stanzol but let me go into it a little more ^^^
Many people first learn about steroids from their gym buddy and as we all know here in the land of real knowledge what ever your buddy in the gym has to say is complete useless utter crap. Ston age advice. It is a good assumption that he is doing nothing more then regurgitating the same old advice that started in the 1970's. Some people would call this tried and true. I call this Ignorant and lazy. As well as stone age and a stumbling block to the advancements in perfecting the art of chemical/muscle enhancement.
Then you have your people who do visit forums. Who go about there day re posting the same thing over and over again. And bashing anything they cant understand lol. Once you see some one making comments like " no supplement works" or "nothing natural can take the place of drugs" what you have is a consumer driven brain washed lemming following the crowds and conforming to bro'ology. Most often because they lack any Ability to understand The topic. O sure they will toss out some studies.
They will put up some good debate at times. After all they have plenty of regurgitated advice passed down to them from there equally ignorant gym friends and or mentors. If they had no agendas. If they had the ability to understand and think on there own. If they were any kind of person who opened up there mind and put a lot of thought, research, and time into the subjects we talk about on a daily bases. They would not make these kinds of comments.
But I really do not like saying bad things about anyone. So I have kept me statements general. I do apologize to anyone who thinks what I described above is them^^ do not wish to cause anyone to feel hurt or bad about them self. This is not my intentions and would never be. Just ask 95% of this forums membership.
Now you can read the link I posted above about forma-stanzol and then I will add to it.
Forma-stanzol's main active compound is formastane/lutheron tm.
Although "formastan" its self has nothing in common at all with nolva or clomid, forma-stanzol does. Nolva and clomid are serms and they block estrogen at the ER thus stopping it from having any effects on the ER.
However when on nolvadex or clomid the level of estrogen in your body does not go down but rather it goes up!!!!. You see, Nolvadex only blocks estrogen that's already in your body but it does not in anyway effect test from converting to estrogen. In fact by stopping the estrogen from entering the ER it causes your body to create both more testosterone AND ESTROGEN
let no one ever forget this. Your bodies level of estrogen goes up well taking nolvadex or clomid not down and anyone who has read a study or two and has been around a wile knows this. This is why it is very very very common for nolvadex and or clomid to cause what is known as "rebound gyno" if you use these product for pct with out a Ai or even better a "suicide aromatase inhibitor" (which is what forma-stanzol is)
Estrogen going up during pct is not a good thing .
Now as you can see formastane its self and nolvadex/clomid are worlds apart. From here on throughout my explanation I will be speaking only about forma-stanzol as I feel it is the far superior compound because it has both formastane (suicide aromatase inhibition as well as progesterone reducing effects) and phytoserms (
Phytoserm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) effects. On top of this it also has many other necessary effects for any prospective steroids user.
One Forma-stanzol's many characteristics is whats know as a "suicide aromatase inhibitor" of aromatase. This means that Forma-stanzol binds to the aromatase enzyme in a permanent and irreversible manner, rendering it inactive.
The result of this is an eventual diminishment of aromatase enzyme in the body and a concurrent reduction in estrogen levels. A corresponding increase in testosterone production is usually experienced as well
It is important to note here that this deactivation of aromatase enzymes by forma-stanzol does not mean that your body becomes permanently deficient in the ability to synthesize estrogen. Your body will react to the deficiency of enzyme by producing more enzyme to replace that which has been deactivated. Therefore, when you stop taking Forma-stanzol your aromatase enzyme level will quickly catch up to normal and full estrogen production will resume.
Now Another important attribute to forma-stanzol is of course its phytoserm effects. Serm/phytoserm effects are important for pct because of there binding to the estrogen receptors, thus inhibiting estrogenic activity only at the ER. This causes a increase to LH & FSH levels, which in turn stimulates testosterone production. The important thing to remember here is although both nolvadex and clomid will do this
they do it at a price! not only does the level of estrogen keep going up well taking them (unlike with forma-stanzol) but they can also be harmful in many other ways ( read post 6 in this thread to learn more about this.
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/anabolic-steroids/taking-anabolic-steroids-101-a-642856.html). This is why phytoserm's "medically and clinically" excepted natural serms are better. Combined with other compounds like the ones in forma-stanzol they are a much more effect form of pct or on cycle estrogen and progesterone control.
Furthermore forma-stanzols 7,8 Benzoflavone a neuro-active flavone has the ability to pass the blood brain barrier and block the suppression of GnRH release through modulation of the GABAergic receptor complex.7,8 Benzoflavone also has a positive effects on libido due to its aphrodisiac and anxiolytic (anxiety-relieving) effect having natural anti-anxiety properties, 7,8-benzoflavone my help improve general self-confidence and well being. But Forma-stansols posative effects on libido dosn't end there. As any well versed steroid user knows lowering progesterone can also have a very positive and profound effects on sex drive.
Forma-stanzol unlike any other Ai or serm also has anabolic effects and coverts to a anabolic at a "dose dependent rate". In other words when used at the higher end of dosing ( 10 pumps twice a day) after a week it starts to covert somewhat to a anabolic compound and adds gains to your cycle.
Still when used at the lower end or pct stile dosing protocol ( 5 pumps twice a day) there is no worries about suppression because its anabolic conversion is again " dose dependent" and only happens at higher doses taken for longer periods of time. How Amazing is that? I dont know any Ai's out there that can clam this nor do I know one single Ai that also lowers progesterone too!
Because of the formatane and now added compounds in forma-stanzol Its anabolic/androgen effects are similar to that of the steroid primobolan Depot ( but only when used at higher doses for longer periods of time).even at the lower dosing It increases IGF-1 levels by an amazing 26%,and increases HPTA activity and testicular activity similar to a combination of hcg and Clomid!
All of this is backed up by " human" studies. Yes Real human studies don by well known Universities and agencies. Because for the longest time Lentaron I.M. Depot® was a proscription drug . This was not a drug that got scrapped because it did not work or because other drugs worked better. No this drug lost favor because many years ago the only way to use the drug was through injections. But because of the advancements in Trans dermal delivery Lentaron I.M. Depot® is back. With the help of NTBM and MRsupps.com its more powerful then ever.
forma-stanzol is a synergistic blend of supporting components making forma-stanzol a Highbred on cycle estrogen/progesterone control and pct drug.
Aromatase inhibition: 4-hydroxyandrostenedione (4-OHA, CGP 32349) in advanced prostatic cancer.
Comparison of the pharmacokinetics and pharmacodyn... [Cancer Chemother Pharmacol. 1990] - PubMed result
Biochemistry and function of sterols - Google Books
Pharmacokinetics of 4-hydroxyandrostenedione in ma... [J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 1993] - PubMed result
In each of these studies we can see that despite that fact that 4-hydroxyandrostenedione has also ( in some studies) shown to be a "very weak prohormone" to the anabolic steroid 4-hydroxytestosterone, as an aromatase inhibitor it also possesses notable testosterone stimulating properties. The use of 4-hydroxy 4-androstenedione gradually increase androgen levels while simultaneously decreasing estrogen and dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Natural androgen production is increased by the stimulation of the hypothalamic pituitary axis via an increase in luteinizing hormone (LH) levels coupled by the direct stimulation of testosterone by 4-hydroxy 4-androstenedione. Luteinizing hormone (LH) is responsible for the production of total serum testosterone and testicular function. Formastane gives a gradual decrease in estrogen blood concentration which produces a signal of the hypothalamic pituitary ( again despite its very weak conversion to 4-hydroxytestosterone).
Whatever "weak conversion activity" it may have is more than compensated for by its ability to drop estrogen levels. This action of course reduces the suppressive signal estrogen sends to your brain.
In all of these studies Formastane was shown to suppress estrogen concentrations yet dos not suppress gonadotropins .
Let me further help you understand the difference and why one is good for pct (suicide aromatase inhibitors) and the other is not.
To understand why forma-stanzol may be useful while regular ai's (like Letro and A-dex) are not we'll need to first understand the differences between
the two. suicide aromatase inhibitors are actually steroidal compounds, while regular Ai's (like Letro and A-dex) are non-steroidal drugs ( no I don't mean STEROID LIKE YOU ARE HOPING LMOA)
Of course, there are some similarities between the two types of AIs...both
suicidal and non suicidal AIs mimic normal substrates (essentially androgens), allowing them to compete with the substrate for access to the binding site on the aromatase enzyme. After this binding, the next step is where things differ greatly for the two different types of AI's. In the case of a suicide aromatase inhibitors the noncompetitive inhibitor will bind, and the enzyme initiates a sequence of hydroxylation ( hence the name 4-hydroxy given to formastane) ; this hydroxylation produces an unbreakable covalent bond between the inhibitor and the enzyme protein.
Now, enzyme activity is permanently blocked; even if all unattached inhibitor is removed. Aromatase enzyme activity can only be restored by new enzyme synthesis.
Now, on the other hand, most all other Ai are competitive inhibitors, reversibly bind to the active enzyme site, and one of two things can happen: 1.) either no enzyme activity is triggered or 2.) the enzyme is somehow triggered without effect. Thus essentially they can actually disassociate from the binding site, eventually allowing renewed competition between the inhibitor and the substrate for binding to the site. This means that the effectiveness of competitive aromatase inhibitors depends on the relative concentrations and affinities of both the inhibitor and the substrate, while this is not so for noncompetitive inhibitors. Forma-stanzol is a suicide aromatase inhibitor meaning that once it has done its job, and deactivated the aromatase enzyme, we don't need it anymore! Starting to understand now bro? Other Ai's need to remain present to continue their effects and this is why they are not the best choice for use during pct but forma-stanzol is..
Now another great post to readis post 33 in this thread.
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/a...hroughout-end-cycle-732709-4.html#post9892399
in the above thread Neanderthal comments were of course made that supplements can not take the place of drugs and again although a ok case was made on behalf of drugs like hcg ( I live HCG so don't get me wrong again ok!) you can see where the conversation has been going.
The hypothalamus, upon realizing that blood levels of androgens are low releases Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone (GnRH). GnRH goes to the pituitary which takes this hormone as the stimulus to release Lutenising Hormone (LH). LH then goes to the testes and stimulates T production. HCG mimics LH however it is not LH!!!!!!!
The HCG would stimulate more T to be released. but during a cycle the hypothalamus would still "recognise" the increased level of androgens and still stop releasing
GnRH which in turn
would lead to the pituitary stopping your own natural production of LH.
This wouldn't matter so much whilst you were taking the HCG as this replaces the LH and so T production would continue whilst you kept taking the HCG. So although Hcg may prevent degeneration of the ladeg cells (remember that your own body isnt producing any LH or GnRH anymore!!! regardless ) As the hypothalamus recognizes outside sources of both androgens and LH now it will feather suppress its own production of LH and GnRH
The problem is that whilst the pituitary has been lying dormant due to not receiving any GnRH from the Hypothalamus it atrophies (just like the testes do when not used).
Get it?
In a normal healthy male luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) are sent from the brain
(the pituitary) to stimulate the testes to make testosterone and sperm.
The release of LH & FSH from the pituitary is stimulated by
Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone (GnRH) from the hypothalamus. The hypothalamus is stimulated to produce GnRH when it senses low levels of testosterone and estrogen.
(hypothalamus [GnRH] --- > pituitary [LH & FSH]--- >(hcg would be placed here if we placed it anywhere)---> testes [testosterone])
So although hcg may cause there to be less atrophie of the ladeg cells it in turn causes more atrophie of the pituitary.
7,8-Benzoflavone -- increases testosterone production by preventing the negative feedback of testosterone and estrogen on the hypothalamus through GABAergic modulation though. And although researchers are just beginning to understand how the GABAergic system regulates the hypothalamus and GnRH secretion its important to know that a lot more studies have been done and are getting done then you think.. On Natural ingredients!!! Like 7,8-Benzoflavone and other phytoserms one can find in products like forma-stanzol.
Now I am not saying that preventing the desensitization of the ladeg cells during a cycle is not a good thing. Because as we know No matter how much LH & FSH the brain secretes, the testes won't secrete testosterone if they are desensitized to LH & FSH. (remember, this can happen from too much, or not enough LH & FSH stimulation)
hCG’s effect is centralized at the Leydig cells of the testicles and stimulates hormone function at the testicular level but does not reverse hypothalamic-pituitary suppression. Adequate stimulation from pituitary gonadotropins is required for the Leydig cells of the testicles to function independently in the body’s normal hormone axis.
of course during a cycle there are natural compounds and products that work through different mechanisms to prevent complete shutdown with out feather suppressing pituitary some through GABAergic modulation and some through others like with hcgenerate.
Hcg is a synthetic "out side source" of a hormone. So for the sake of argument and layman's terms ( so that your self and everyone can grasp/wrap head around subject) I will brake things down and give them a names.
steroids,Hcg,drug serms, and just about anything manufactured by a pharmaceutical company that we have commonly used=
Synthetic "out side source of the target hormone"
Now we will give things like hcgenerate,bridge,unleashed/post cycle a name. Natural
"bio-identical hormone" or
"Homeopathic hormones" but in reality they have many names and even medically excepted ones like Phyto-SERMs, phytochemicals, phytonutrients , phenolic compounds ,phytotherapy, blah blah blah and a whole slew of other terms..
But for now will use the terms Synthetic and bio-identical hormones.
See I am explaining it like this because this has a lot to do with the parts you are not understanding. Although this is not everything and many of the natural and or even OTC hormones in the products mentioned work through other mechanisms and ways of action. Not just in a bio-identical/Homeopathic hormone manner of action.
Bio-identical/Homeopathic hormones are plant-derived and identical to the body's hormones. They are naturally the exact same thing and or they cause "natural" production/suppression of the target hormone.
Synthetic hormones such as hcg or a drug like serm are similar but not identical to the body's hormones. Fethermore they are "always" a outside source of the parent/target hormone. Moreover through manipulation of the hormone cascade they can also be used to suppress the production of a target hormone in the hopes to facilitate the production of another. We use compounds like Hcg and or clomid often notwithstanding the fact These slight chemical shift create a mismatches between the body's receptors ,Parent hormones,sister hormones, and or governing hormone cascade.
Now don't pull out your pitch forks and torches just yet
I love my steroids,drugs,chemical enhancement just as much as the next guy and in fact IMO more bwahahahahaaaa . So lets not try and act like I am downing there use. On the contrary I just happen to be more of a nonconformist who believes that Both Natural and synthetic coexist synergisticly in many concomitant circumstances.
Now at times I think you are confusing Bio-Identical with Homeopathic . One naturally augments or reduces and the other Naturally replaces. Although all things considered Naturally replacing is often (but not always) the superior. This creates less of a problem in the way of mismatching, adverse reactions, or suppression then the chemical counterparts.
Weather Fadogia agrestis method of action is more of a Bio-Identical or a Homeopathic Is somewhat unfounded however its actions through what ever Natural Mechanisms is founded. Through both scientific and real world results/feed back.
Title: Aphrodisiac potentials of the aqueous extract of Fadogia agrestis (Schweinf. Ex Hiern) stem in male albino rats.
Author: Yakubu MT , Akanji MA , Oladiji AT
Source: Asian J Androl, 7(4): 399-404 2005
Abstract: AIM: To evaluate the phytochemical constituents and the aphrodisiac potential of the aqueous extract of Fadogia agrestis (Rubiaceae) stem in male albino rats. METHODS: The aqueous stem extract of the plant was screened for phytochemical constituents. Male rats were orally dosed with 18 mg/kg, 50 mg/kg and 100 mg/kg body weight, respectively, of the extract at 24 h intervals and their sexual behavior parameters and serum testosterone concentration were evaluated at days 1, 3 and 5. RESULTS: Phytochemical screening revealed the presence of alkaloids and saponins while anthraquinones and flavonoids are weakly present. All the doses resulted in significant increase in mount frequency, intromission frequency and significantly prolonged the ejaculatory latency (P 0.05) and reduced mount and intromission latency (P 0.05). There was also a significant increase in serum testosterone concentrations in all the groups in a manner suggestive of dose-dependence (P 0.05). CONCLUSION: The aqueous extract of Fadogia agrestis stem increased the blood testosterone concentrations and this may be the mechanism responsible for its aphrodisiac effects and various masculine behaviors. It may be used to modify impaired sexual functions in animals, especially those arising from hypotestosteronemia
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/anabolic-steroids/hcgenerate-needto-does-again-691319.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/bodybuilding-supplements/hcgenerate-716865.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/anabolic-steroids/hcgenerate-sent-heaven-way-needto-707933.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/anabolic-steroids/my-hcgenerate-experience-687243.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/anabolic-steroids/hcgenerate-needto-707157.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/bodybuilding-supplements/hcgenerate-689005.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/a...ate-amazing-need-some-help-advice-711743.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/a...w-hcgenerate-saved-yet-another-me-704063.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/a...ate-solve-my-problems-710985.html#post9544455
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/bodybuilding-supplements/wow-hcgenerate-powerful-699719.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/bodybuilding-supplements/hcgenerate-year-round-695837.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/bodybuilding-supplements/hcgenerate-review-695755.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/bodybuilding-supplements/props-n2bm-hcgod-like-sex-720583.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/a...perience-hcgenerate-formastanozol-722309.html
Unleashed and post cycle combo is a great addative so any pct. Be it nolva or clomid combined with the unleashed/post cycle or forma-stanzol/unleashed/post cycle
or
Transdermal sustain alpha/unleashed and post cycle combo.
Regardless I dont thnk anyone can make the argument that the addition of unleashed and post cycle is not going to help your recovery along and assist you in keeping your gains.
When it comes to pct the first thing addressed is always recovery of the HPTA and I think it is clear that the above mentioned products can ( and if you want thousand of thread links more proving it has. And well work!!! However As I have always stated over and over again this is not the only aspect of pct and many other factors should be addressed. Pct Is the most important part of the cycle. Even if you are on HRT proper pct to save gains is still needed because again there is a lot more to pct then just recovering hormone levels.
What you lose when coming off steroids should also be addressed and maybe you cant afford or do not wish to address them all at least a few should be. Keep in mind if you gain 90lb what does it matter if you lose 87 of them and end up feeling like shit for months on end on top of that. Nothing is more crucial then the first 4-8 weeks following a cycle and this is why it has been such a widely debated topic for years. Now if you are foolish enough to trust your entire cycle, the future of you bodiez hormones, all of your gains, the ability to have kids later in life. the way you are going to feel for the next few months maybe even year (which in turn can effect every other aspect of your life from family to work), and everything else to the use of just a simple hcg on cycle and clomid or nolva pct. Well then I feel sorry for you. Although you may have a story to tell about how you got away with it this one time, or have been getting away with it for a long time now. Some day That story is going to change and I hate to be you when it does.
1.Will clomid or nolvadex help with Nitrogen retention and protein+carbohydrate synthesis. Not a chance!!!
It is a well known fact steroids promote nitrogen retention in the muscles. The more nitrogen the muscles holds the more protein the muscle stores, and the bigger the muscle gets. Steroids also increase carbohydrate synthesis. More of what you eat is used as muscle fuel and energy.
2. Will clomid or nolvadex help with a Euphoria,heightened self-esteem and aggression. Fucking please we all know more then half the people taking them feel like shit
and the lucky ones might feel just ok!
This ones some what self explanatory. You feel like king of the world and life just seems great no matter what happens. Yet the moment you step into the gym you turn into a beast and kill everything in site! steroids give you this and you lose when you come off cycle. No way in hell nolva and clomids helping you get that back.
3. Will clomid or nolvadex help with Blood quality,blood volume, and muscle gorging pumps? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAHAHAHAA LMAO you wish!!!!
Ever notice how quickly the muscle gets full when training on steroids and designer supplements? How you feel like your muscles are going to rip out of your shirt and your veins are going to pop out of your skin? That's enriched blood and blood volume. not getting that back using clomid or nolva sorry guys!!!
4. Will clomid or nolvadex help with maassive Libido,extreme sexual urges, rock hard erections? HMM some say there sex drive is "OK" or "JUST FINE" when taking them
but more people say its in the shitter. Again clomid and nolva pretty much lose on this one too. Yet another boo hoo for them!!
5. Will clomid or nolvadex help with Strength,stamina, and muscle recovery. AAAH if you think so your a meat head.
Oh yes the pounds keep adding up on the bar and we keep pushing out the extra reps. Over and over we kill it in the gym and wake up the next day ready to kill it again. <---not on clomid ya want, Not on nolva ether. You are lucky if you get to keep some of your gains and thats it.
WOW look at everything one loses when they come off a steroids or designer supplements cycle. It seems crazy to ever thing that clomid or nolvadex could cover all of this.
That's because they don't. In fact they don't do anything on this list. They are old drugs once used to help recover the hpta and these days there is far better for this.
The point is even if your HPTA is recovered, you're missing these vital aspects of steroid and designer supplement use.
And this is why "until now" it has been almost impossible to maintain all your gains from one cycle to the next(because retards kept pushing clomid and nolva "only"). This is why people who take steroids and designer supplements have always taken 10 steps forward only to end up taking 5 steps back and at times losing even more then that(because retards keep pushing clomid and nolva) . Until now!!! Finally years later people are starting to see the light. Even if clomid and nolva did the job of recovering the hpta flawlessly with out causing any other problems ( we all know they do cause tuns of problems for a lot of users) they still dont do one single thing on this list. Not a single one of them.
And truthfully there is not one "single" compound or drug that can cover them all ether. Save for maybe Bridge which Partially covers all of them but masters in non of them.
The point of all of this is this.
Can you have a outstanding pct, feel good, keep most if not all of your gains ,and suffer from minimal side effects using a "ALL OTC PCT"? You bet your ass you can.
Can you have a outstanding pct, feel good, keep most if not all of your gains ,and suffer from minimal side effects using a A combination of drugs "and" OTC products? Yes more then likely you can of course.
Can you have a outstanding pct, feel good, keep most if not all of your gains ,and suffer from minimal side effects using just drugs? HMMM chances of this "GREATLY REDUCED". It has happened before but its not likely.
Thank you I will be here all day.
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