Bulk or Cut first?

[Hoffmeister]

One question that comes up from time to time is whether to bulk up first then diet, or to diet then bulk up.

Most of the replies tend to be to bulk first, since additional muscle will help raise metabolism, making it easier to diet.

But John Berardi over at t-mag has a pretty good article up here:

http://www.testosterone.net/articles/167app.html

Now, Lyle Mcdonald has been harping for some time that 80% of what you lose (fat or muscle) is based entirely on your body composition, irregardless of diet. The leaner you get, the more muscle you will lose in ratio to fat.

Berardi backs this up with references to studies (even gives a predictive equation). But maybe more interesting is the reverse is true; the leaner you are, the more muscle you will put on when starting to bulk.

Makes a pretty good argument for cutting first, then bulking.

Anyway, check the article out.

 

[ColumboWeiser]

I think it depends on how fat you are...if you are looking to look good adn keep most of the new aquired muscle, then cut forst...I think that if you are above 15%, you should cut first, always...stay lean!! Just my 2 cc's

 

[Mr.X]

Dear Hoffmeister,

I looked over the T-mag stuff, and I went to my books and medline, I looked up some of the refs. and they are, in fact, correct. I have to disagree with Lyle McDonald. Just like I am not always correct, he is not always correct.

I do agree with the T-mag, Berardi facts that the leaner you are, the more muscle you'll put on while bulking. This is actually a proved fact not only for me personally but also to many bodybuilders out there and people I've worked with. Hence, the reason you try to get as lean as you can before starting a bulking cycle.

Mr.X

 

[Hoffmeister]

Interesting. So what do you disagree with?

Certainly, Lyle has qualified the statement. Things like sufficient protein, non-absurd calorie levels, and, umm, lack of "external" forces. But the references seem to bear out both sides of the equation.

 

[The mann]

very good info,guys!!!

 

[Mr.X]

I do not believe in the fact that being lean will in turn cause more muscle loss, than fat loss. Come now, that's a reverse statement. I see the T-mag article with a lot of backing refs. and medical forfillments, so I am going by it. Plus, I have used the Cut first, than Bulk with awesome sucess not just for myself.

Mr.X

 

[Hoffmeister]

Seriously, how is that a reverse statement?

I think everyone has had the experience when dieting that fat loss gets tougher the leaner you get. To get rid of fat, you have to accept more muscle loss. The ratio of fat to muscle that you lose gets less (less fat, more muscle) as you get leaner. And that's all the article is saying.

Sure, there is some evidence that keto type diets may be somewhat more protein sparing in that regard, but it's not a huge difference (I think the references show a difference of 2-3 lbs over like a 12 week period).

Again, assuming the use of "natural" dieting, for lack of a better term.

 

[Mr.X]

Well, assuming you are talking about dieting, I see it problematic to say that the leaner you get the more muscle you lose. It doesn' work that way for everyone. Yes, I do agree that for some it's true, but, on the same hand, some people do just fine when they are 6%bf and go down to 4%bf naturally without losing more muscle than fat. Because, I see the viewpoint immensely from both sides of the argument, yet we have to look at facts of dieting from a larger standpoint. Not all people lose more muscle than fat when they get to a certain bf%. I just do not believe that is true, and I have not seen any real strong scientific evidence for this to acquire more of my time.

Plus, the cut then bulk, is surely a great way to be leaner and bigger. Because you were lean in the beggining of the bulk, then you gain fat, but it was only semi-significant due to the lean body composition you've had prior.

Mr.X

 

[Hoffmeister]

Well, yes, the article was talking about dieting in this regard.

For sure, there are individual differences. No precise level of BF is going to be the same for everyone. But as a ratio, it probably holds. Your example of going from 6% to 4%, while maybe not losing more muscle than fat, probably still lost more muscle as a percentage of total weight than going from 8% to 6%.

Anyway, thanks for your time.

 

[Mr.X]

Great, it was a great topic, I hope everyone came out with some personal info from this article.

Mr.X