Anti-estrogen supplements

[Bill Llewellyn]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Anti-estrogen supplements

Now, if in-vitro studies are all that you feel are necessary to claim that your product is an effective aromatase inhibitor then I guess chrysin is a great product too. WE know that is not the case

You know Pat, you give a lot of lip service about biotest and other companies knocking others' products without warrant. I am quite surprised to see you behave like this with me. Especially in light of the fact that I am the first to speak highly of ErgoPharm, and you know full well of this. I am happy to acknowledge the accomplishments of others. I can't understand with your success why you would not feel the same.

Comparing Viratase to Chrysin just takes the cake Pat. I really hope you do not start going the route of others who feel this industry is too small for more than one company. I speak highly of the work you do, but am starting to question your ability to share the spotlight with anyone else innovative.

Bottom line Pat: You do know that when you bash products that people know work, it is ultimately your reputation you are tarnishing.

 

[bpdaddy]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anti-estrogen supplements

I speak highly of the work you do, but am starting to question your ability to share the spotlight with anyone else innovative.

Bottom line Pat: You do know that when you bash products that people know work, it is ultimately your reputation you are tarnishing.

Don't get down on Mr. A, he's a good guy. He's just trying to get the next big thing in the market. As for Par and yourself, we all know your products are great and that won't change the facts.

Sharing is caring, right Bill...

 

[pa1ad]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anti-estrogen supplements

You know Pat, you give a lot of lip service about biotest and other companies knocking others' products without warrant. I am quite surprised to see you behave like this with me. Especially in light of the fact that I am the first to speak highly of ErgoPharm, and you know full well of this. I am happy to acknowledge the accomplishments of others. I can't understand with your success why you would not feel the same.

Comparing Viratase to Chrysin just takes the cake Pat. I really hope you do not start going the route of others who feel this industry is too small for more than one company. I speak highly of the work you do, but am starting to question your ability to share the spotlight with anyone else innovative.

Bottom line Pat: You do know that when you bash products that people know work, it is ultimately your reputation you are tarnishing.

Bill, I think you ought to chill for a minute. I simply asked if you knew any studies indicating viratase (or the active ingredient thereof) has any demonstrable aromatase inhibition in-vivo. If you can provide them then you will have made your point.

Until you have such evidence then i am afraid that we do not know whether your product works any better than chrysin. Should we all agree that it does because you say so? Because "people know it works" (as you roughly put it). Jeezus Bill, who sounds like Biotest now? You saying that you don't need evidence cuz everyone just knows it works?

I call my product the first bona-fide aromatase inhibitor because it passes the test - and that is it has been proven in-vivo. Yours has not been proven in-vivo. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but it has not been proven like the stuff that will be in my formula.

I hope we can have a cordial discussion without getting angry over all this.

 

[pa1ad]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anti-estrogen supplements

Don't get down on Mr. A, he's a good guy. He's just trying to get the next big thing in the market. As for Par and yourself, we all know your products are great and that won't change the facts.

Sharing is caring, right Bill...

Bill is a very talented supplement designer. I respect him alot. That does not mean i have to say that i think all his products are great. Nor does he have to say mine are great. Hey, he still believes that boldione is better than 1-AD, and I got no problem with him saying that.

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anti-estrogen supplements

Until you have such evidence then i am afraid that we do not know whether your product works any better than chrysin. Should we all agree that it does because you say so? Because "people know it works" (as you roughly put it). Jeezus Bill, who sounds like Biotest now? You saying that you don't need evidence cuz everyone just knows it works?

Pat, you spoke quite matter-of-factly about the strong anti-estrogenic effects of DHT and 5-alpha androstanedione (Viratase) in Muscle monthly last year. Are you saying now that you changed your mind about this? Or maybe you are saying this particular prohormone cannot be absorbed orally, or what? And yes, honest feedback is important. It works, people know it, period.

Proviron is expected to work through the same mechanism. BB's have been using it for years, to spite that no in-vivo study was ever expensed to look at the anti-estrogenic effect of this steroid. Should we throw our tabs in the garbage until someone funds a study to tell us what we already know?

Shit man, even Biotest admits Viratase works.

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anti-estrogen supplements

I hope we can have a cordial discussion without getting angry over all this.

I'm getting angry because I feel this is a repeat of the whole 1-AD "unsurpassed oral bioavailability thing". You knowingly made a false claim, and continue to make a false claim actually, that 1-AD has unsurpassed oral bioavailability. You knew full well from day one that the 1,4-andro (Boldione) is about 3 times better in this regard. Creative license doesn't cut it. You ignored it because you felt the company selling it at the time wasn't real competition. Regarless, the truth is the truth, and I would NOT have done that myself. I was red with anger when I finally pulled the paper on 1-AD. You sold a lot of 1-AD directly based on that claim I will remind you.

And had I for some reason done that, due to the respectful relationship that I think we have developed since, I would have surely fixed it by now. The ad still runs. Is it so hard to change it to "High oral Bioavailability" or something?

Pat, I don't mind you saying your product is better. Hell, we are all in business. But please play by the rules. Comparing Viratase to Chrysin is ridiculous. I know you know it. You could have easily talked up your product without pissing on mine.

I really want to have a respectful competitive relationships with you Pat. This is a huge industry, and there is room for plenty of innovative companies. And I personally enjoy arguing over the facts with guys like you and Par. I think we all keep each other on our toes. But I hate it when I start to see you slide out of bounds like you do from time to time; it takes a lot of the fun out of this for me.

 

[pa1ad]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anti-estrogen supplements

Pat, you spoke quite matter-of-factly about the strong anti-estrogenic effects of DHT and 5-alpha androstanedione (Viratase) in Muscle monthly last year. Are you saying now that you changed your mind about this? Or maybe you are saying this particular prohormone cannot be absorbed orally, or what? And yes, honest feedback is important. It works, people know it, period.

Proviron is expected to work through the same mechanism. BB's have been using it for years, to spite that no in-vivo study was ever expensed to look at the anti-estrogenic effect of this steroid. Should we throw our tabs in the garbage until someone funds a study to tell us what we already know?

Shit man, even Biotest admits Viratase works.

I spoke of theories Bill, just like I wrote about the theory of chrysin years ago (but as you notice, I never sold the stuff). If i had thought that 5-AA had the evidence to make it something worthwhile enough to sell as a supplement for oral consumption I would have sold it years ago. I knew about the science of DHT and 5-AA and estrogen, and knew where to get 5-AA before you were even in this biz. But I did not want to sell something that I did not feel met my qualifications for proven efficacy. If the stuff meets your qualifications then fine.

 

[pa1ad]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anti-estrogen supplements

I'm getting angry because I feel this is a repeat of the whole 1-AD "unsurpassed oral bioavailability thing". You knowingly made a false claim, and continue to make a false claim actually, that 1-AD has unsurpassed oral bioavailability. You knew full well from day one that the 1,4-andro (Boldione) is about 3 times better in this regard. Creative license doesn't cut it. You ignored it because you felt the company selling it at the time wasn't real competition. Regarless, the truth is the truth, and I would NOT have done that myself. I was red with anger when I finally pulled the paper on 1-AD. You sold a lot of 1-AD directly based on that claim I will remind you.

And had I for some reason done that, due to the respectful relationship that I think we have developed since, I would have surely fixed it by now. The ad still runs. Is it so hard to change it to "High oral Bioavailability" or something?

Pat, I don't mind you saying your product is better. Hell, we are all in business. But please play by the rules. Comparing Viratase to Chrysin is ridiculous. I know you know it. You could have easily talked up your product without pissing on mine.

I really want to have a respectful competitive relationships with you Pat. This is a huge industry, and there is room for plenty of innovative companies. And I personally enjoy arguing over the facts with guys like you and Par. I think we all keep each other on our toes. But I hate it when I start to see you slide out of bounds like you do from time to time; it takes a lot of the fun out of this for me.

I never intended to knock your product. You somehow thought that I was, but I was not. I just think that my aromatase inhibitor is the first one on the market that has been proven, and that is what i said. My definition of proven is in-vivo activity. You took exception to that, because you think that in-vitro is good enough and/or that your customers like your stuff. I also never compared viratase to chrysin except to say that both were marketed based solely on in-vitro evidence and neither have been proven to work in-vivo.

I don't think there is any more point in going on like this. It is just silly

 

[Reid232]

These are the people I buy my stuff from? Shit, makes me wonder how much YOU guys truly care about your customers and products!

 

[pa1ad]

These are the people I buy my stuff from? Shit, makes me wonder how much YOU guys truly care about your customers and products!

Awwwwwwww, and now aren't we just a sensitive little wussy boy?

Is mine and Bill's little tiff making you feel all uneasy and scared? Have you peed yourself? there there......

I care alot about my customers. But not when they behave like little panty stains