Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below I was just wondering if it was possible to get somewhere remotelly close to some of these pros you see in the magazines naturally. I am under the impression that all of them juice at some point or another(ive read that 99percent of all pros have done it at one point or another.Dont know if that is true or not but i would believe it). I was just wondering if anyone knew anyone that was really huge, that they honestly knew had never done juice? I know that genetics plays a big role in the whole thing. Im thinking of this because a few days ago i met wwf superstar Triple H, and though i have been lifting for over 2 years and have made very good gains that i am happy with i could never imagine being close to how big he was without doing steroids, but then again i could be wrong.
What is the biggest one can get naturally??
- Thread starter angleslam
- Start date
Blood&Iron
New member
Triple H is, in all likelihood, juiced to the gills. I very much doubt there has been a drug-free pro ever, considering the IFBB isn't all that old. You can get pretty damn big naturally, but look at the guys from the 40's and early 50's(Reg Park, Steve Reeves, etc) and you'll see what you'd look like with great genetics and no drugs.angleslam said:
RE
Maybe this will help answer your question...
I was reading a past issue of Flex magazine and they had pictures of the professional body builders that competed in the Mr Olympia competion (black and white pics) before steroids etc came out, and they did have quiet a bit of muscle and definition on them but when you looked at them, then turned the page to see pics of Ronnie Coleman and Shawn ray, they looked somewhat like amatures
Maybe this will help answer your question...
I was reading a past issue of Flex magazine and they had pictures of the professional body builders that competed in the Mr Olympia competion (black and white pics) before steroids etc came out, and they did have quiet a bit of muscle and definition on them but when you looked at them, then turned the page to see pics of Ronnie Coleman and Shawn ray, they looked somewhat like amatures
stray dogg
New member
NO!!! there is no way a natural guy can compete with the pros.........steroids offer too many advantages........
im not saying someone can`t have a good phsique natuarally, but i seriously doubt he could compete against drug induced athletes......they just hold too many advantages.........
It is possible to get Muscle media 2k big, but as for FLEX big for get it!
Maybe perhaps a man with great genetics , sound nutrition, rest and training regimine can maybe compete in the lightweight pro, but NOT in the heavyweight division........
im not saying someone can`t have a good phsique natuarally, but i seriously doubt he could compete against drug induced athletes......they just hold too many advantages.........
It is possible to get Muscle media 2k big, but as for FLEX big for get it!
Maybe perhaps a man with great genetics , sound nutrition, rest and training regimine can maybe compete in the lightweight pro, but NOT in the heavyweight division........
no way your going to get as big as ronnie coleman or other top bodybuilders without juicing. if you wanna see great natural weighlifting progress so to john hansens site, www.naturalolympia.com
, if u got the genetics to get huge without drugs,,then by all means,,stay drug free
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SSAlexSS
Guest
dgreenhill said:
arnold had awful symmetry. I bet that he wouldnt even be ALLOWED to copete in todyas olympia...
His symmetry was horrible.... His legs were too small, he lacked mass, his arms + chest are his best parts and even they were are OK.
MarshallPenniford
New member
SS - I have read many of your posts. Some discuss very interesting things. Your comments about Arnold are nuts though. You should post that you work for Elite Fitness so people will take what you say with a grain of salt!
Phenotype X
New member
It sucks being all natural. You can never get as big as the pros or even most of the guys who are on unless you have good genetics. I'm probably as all natural as they get, and I have been lifting for about 7 years, and probably training hard for a good 4 years. I have bad genetics and have trouble gaining size. I am the guy who trains naturally, with great consistency and intensity, but still can't gain too much size. Those that are on usually pass me up even if they have been training hard for a year or two.
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SSAlexSS
Guest
MarshallPenniford said:
Well. Lets look at it unbiased. I like him as a Movie Star, and a very smart/look to bodybuilder. But he wasnt as great.
SOme of todays pros are slightly better than him.
Dont get me wrong, he had greta arms and chest. But this is BODYBUILDING, not
who has bigger arms and can curl more competition!
aurelius
New member
You won´t even come close to the size achievable with juice. I see guys in my gym every day lifting casually with shit form doing more talking than pumping and these guys are huge! A testament to the power of AS. You don´t have to lift like a maniac to get big on that stuff, contrary to long winded digressions by some regarding "lifting til you puke" and so on.
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SSAlexSS
Guest
Re: to SS
Who won Olympia with legs?
All of top 10 guys today have better legs than good ol' Arnie!
Today for example you win with BACK, lee haney dorian and coleman are prime examples. NOT with your arms and chest. Arms and chest went out of fashion 20 years ago as number uno requirment...
Howeever if you have sinnky arnie like legs than I guess top 10 at Oly,mpia is closed for you, no Olympia at all is closed!
aurelius said:
Who won Olympia with legs?
All of top 10 guys today have better legs than good ol' Arnie!
Today for example you win with BACK, lee haney dorian and coleman are prime examples. NOT with your arms and chest. Arms and chest went out of fashion 20 years ago as number uno requirment...
Howeever if you have sinnky arnie like legs than I guess top 10 at Oly,mpia is closed for you, no Olympia at all is closed!
aurelius
New member
to SS
Of course all of the top ten guys have better legs than Arnie. Make that the top 40. Its all relative.
"Arms and chest went out of fashion 20 years ago as number uno requirment... "
Don´t agree. Are you saying that Coleman isn´t packing some heat or hasn´t got what might be considered a massive chest? Having a massive chest and set of guns is now just par for the course.
Right on about winning with the back. Most bb´s only work hard those muscles that they can see. If you have a back, you automtically boost your chances.
Oh well, that´s what sport is. I say potato, you say, well... potato (except with a funny accent)
Of course all of the top ten guys have better legs than Arnie. Make that the top 40. Its all relative.
"Arms and chest went out of fashion 20 years ago as number uno requirment... "
Don´t agree. Are you saying that Coleman isn´t packing some heat or hasn´t got what might be considered a massive chest? Having a massive chest and set of guns is now just par for the course.
Right on about winning with the back. Most bb´s only work hard those muscles that they can see. If you have a back, you automtically boost your chances.
Oh well, that´s what sport is. I say potato, you say, well... potato (except with a funny accent)
Robert Jan
New member
i wanna see a pic of Havoc already. Everybody sayin he rocks and shit and looks roidish while hes natural... lets see it
I think that you can get huge without drugs...I KNOW that you can. Getting huge AND being lean? I don't think so.
B True
B True
benchmonster
New member
If you really honestly want to know how big and cut a person can get while being clean, then go and find some pictures of the most muscular and cut people that you can find, and make sure the pictures were taken before the 1950's.
I am pretty sure that scientists came up with nandralone in 1956, somebody can correct me if they know different. Before that, everybody was clean, because there was no choice. After that, you have to take a person's word on whether they are clean or not.
I can count on one hand the number of people whom I would beleive if they told me they were clean. It has nothing to do with the type of physique they sport, it has to do with what I know about their character.
If you want to stay clean, stay clean. Don't compare yourself to others. Compete with yourself from a year ago.
If you want to be a serious competitive bodybuilder, or powerlifter, or whatever, you had best come to grips, that you are competing against those who juice. If you are not going to do it, and insist on competing against those who do, you are going to be disapointed a lot.
Tim Bruner says if you are not willing to go on the juice, you had better get used to being left behind.
You can get better than you are now, but you cannot compete against the best of the best, without doing everything to better yourself that they are doing.
B.
I am pretty sure that scientists came up with nandralone in 1956, somebody can correct me if they know different. Before that, everybody was clean, because there was no choice. After that, you have to take a person's word on whether they are clean or not.
I can count on one hand the number of people whom I would beleive if they told me they were clean. It has nothing to do with the type of physique they sport, it has to do with what I know about their character.
If you want to stay clean, stay clean. Don't compare yourself to others. Compete with yourself from a year ago.
If you want to be a serious competitive bodybuilder, or powerlifter, or whatever, you had best come to grips, that you are competing against those who juice. If you are not going to do it, and insist on competing against those who do, you are going to be disapointed a lot.
Tim Bruner says if you are not willing to go on the juice, you had better get used to being left behind.
You can get better than you are now, but you cannot compete against the best of the best, without doing everything to better yourself that they are doing.
B.
powerlifterjay
New member
Well even though drug tests can be beat, why would someone claim drug free and wana be tested randomly? Ya'll remeber Mike Ashley? He was in the olyimpia a few times. Granted i am no expert on old shows but i know for some time he would random drug test to prove he is drugg free. Wether he was caught or not i do not know. But i do know he went a few years doing and saying so. I also remeber when current MR O claimed to be drug free. Check his pics from early 90's. Maybe? You know he has the best genetics you can get. Is it possible? Dont know. But i do know thats 2 guys out of millions. So can you do it now. No way. I dont even believe you can turn pro with out juice. My opinion.
coolcolj
New member
What about Jean Paul Guilliame? He was pro and definitely natural, hard and tight looking. Not massive, but had big muscles.
Bill Davey and Mike O'Hearn are other natural guys.
You can get as big as your natural testerone levels will allow and maybe 10% more if you train hard and regularly. Once you hit that limit, you can get stronger but not much bigger. That's why as you get older and as Testosterone levels drop, you start to loss muscle mass. Same deal when you stop juicing, Test levels drop and so does the muscle mass.
Your hormones determine how much muscle your body can hold, your training determines if you can reach that limit or not.
Your can't keep getting forever.
Its much easier to get bigger from sacroplasmic growth - muscle goo. Typicaly what BB'es display. Big puffy muscles. Muscle growth from contractile proteins look diffferent, harder and denser. This is the muscle size atheletes normally display.
Bill Davey and Mike O'Hearn are other natural guys.
You can get as big as your natural testerone levels will allow and maybe 10% more if you train hard and regularly. Once you hit that limit, you can get stronger but not much bigger. That's why as you get older and as Testosterone levels drop, you start to loss muscle mass. Same deal when you stop juicing, Test levels drop and so does the muscle mass.
Your hormones determine how much muscle your body can hold, your training determines if you can reach that limit or not.
Your can't keep getting forever.
Its much easier to get bigger from sacroplasmic growth - muscle goo. Typicaly what BB'es display. Big puffy muscles. Muscle growth from contractile proteins look diffferent, harder and denser. This is the muscle size atheletes normally display.
Imnotdutch
butler monkey
I'm interested to know how you can be sure that somebody is 'definitely natural'? Drug tests can be beaten.....officials paid off etc. There are drugs available that are in and out of your body very quickly or are undetectable. Mebbe I'm just a cynic .
. CoolColJ said:
coolcolj
New member
Well for one thing, Jean Paul looks totally different from all the other pros at that time, he was hard looking, clear skin, no roid gut and without that puffy densified vascular chemical look.
Sure he has big muscles, but he's not massive like the chemical boys, and he didn't weigh all that much 190 or so in contest shape at 5'8" or 5'9". I had a BB mag with pics of him many years ago. He looked natural. Highest he placed was 5th at a Pro show
this is him - he's a chiropracter now
Sure he has big muscles, but he's not massive like the chemical boys, and he didn't weigh all that much 190 or so in contest shape at 5'8" or 5'9". I had a BB mag with pics of him many years ago. He looked natural. Highest he placed was 5th at a Pro show
this is him - he's a chiropracter now
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Imnotdutch
butler monkey
CoolColJ said:
The roid gut as you call it is prevalent now, more likely due to the common use of growth hormone rather than steroids. This is quite a new thing......
Looking different tells us nothing......and the gear you use has a large say in the look that you achieve. People don't just take gear to get as huge as possible. If he avoided heavy androgens or took precautions he might easily have kept clear skin.
Looks tell you very little......look at how small some quite heavy users are. Whereas others that don't touch gear can get pretty big. For example, alot of cyclists use gear.....they aren't particlularly big but they are lean.
Imnotdutch
butler monkey
CoolColJ said:
You are right inthat you could achieve alot with the above......that doesn't mean that he or anybody else takes this route.
BTW I should admit that I haven't seen his pics and a web search didn't kick anything up......I would be interested if you have a link. My point however, is that it is tough to see who uses and who doesn't (this is evident if you look at pics of some people who frequent anabolics boards).
coolcolj
New member
His name is Paul Jean Guillaume
Some pics above in one of my replies. Im looking for more,not much around. Pity I don't have my mags with pics of him in it anymore
At first i didn't think his arms were as big as I remebered, but in that pic, that other guys hands look pretty small up next to his biceps, so it must be fairly large
Some pics above in one of my replies. Im looking for more,not much around. Pity I don't have my mags with pics of him in it anymore
At first i didn't think his arms were as big as I remebered, but in that pic, that other guys hands look pretty small up next to his biceps, so it must be fairly large
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SSAlexSS
Guest
HulkRow said:
Compare him to an actually symmetrical bodybuilder (Flex Wheeler for example) and you'll see what I mean.
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SSAlexSS
Guest
ChillyDog said:
Not all pros have big distented bellies. Yes some pros have big guts but thjeir other muscles are balanced with each other!
Arnold needs about 5 more inches on his thighs ....
Imnotdutch
butler monkey
polorl694 said:
What makes you so sure that all of those guys are natural??
benchmonster
New member
Non-users so want to believe that a certain look or strength level, or whatever, is acheivable clean that they will often believe complete horseshit, that any user in the world knows to be false.
When I was young and dumb I argued to my father that Arnold had never taken steroids. I refused to beleive my hero would do something like that. Also I knew I would never use them, and I knew that I would look like Arnold if I just worked out really hard. I knew this because Joe Weider told me all this. I ate it up, hook, line and sinker.
Incidentally I was 14 years old at the time. And I was dumb to believe it then. Anyone older than that who thinks any serious bodybuilder anywhere is clean is someone who I would love to sell a timeshare on the moon to.
Don't get hung up on who is clean and who is not. You will never know if a person who tells you they are clean is or not. And what the Hell does clean mean? Passed the test? Lots of stuff that makes you big and strong, and freaky do not show up on tests. HGH, Clen, Insulin. None of these can be tested for. Think none of your clean heroes know about that little secret?
Oral steroids get out of your system very quickly. A birth control pill will put your test/epitest ratio back into compliance even if you are currently taking testosterone. Try and better yourself. If you choose to use drugs to aid in that attempt, be careful and find out as much as you can before diving in. If you choose to be clean, don't whine about it when people who are willing to do more get more results.
B.
When I was young and dumb I argued to my father that Arnold had never taken steroids. I refused to beleive my hero would do something like that. Also I knew I would never use them, and I knew that I would look like Arnold if I just worked out really hard. I knew this because Joe Weider told me all this. I ate it up, hook, line and sinker.
Incidentally I was 14 years old at the time. And I was dumb to believe it then. Anyone older than that who thinks any serious bodybuilder anywhere is clean is someone who I would love to sell a timeshare on the moon to.
Don't get hung up on who is clean and who is not. You will never know if a person who tells you they are clean is or not. And what the Hell does clean mean? Passed the test? Lots of stuff that makes you big and strong, and freaky do not show up on tests. HGH, Clen, Insulin. None of these can be tested for. Think none of your clean heroes know about that little secret?
Oral steroids get out of your system very quickly. A birth control pill will put your test/epitest ratio back into compliance even if you are currently taking testosterone. Try and better yourself. If you choose to use drugs to aid in that attempt, be careful and find out as much as you can before diving in. If you choose to be clean, don't whine about it when people who are willing to do more get more results.
B.
MarshallPenniford
New member
Nice post.
I think that the Jean Paul Guilleme look is achievable naturally with decent genetics and 8-10 years of dedicated training.
That doesn't mean he didn't juice or something, but he doesn't look unreal.
If you look at him he is not super ripped or freaky big but somewhere in between and got a some meat and nice shape all over his body (except the the high calve insertions wich seems to be a black thing, at least the people that originated from eastern africa, the flatlands, savannes, running for predators was required, west africa had more rainforests and climbing trees/hills etc gave birth to more meaty calves)
Anyway telltale signs of serious juicing (and training offcoarse) is usually when the delts start to explode in size and also these once modest guys come in the gym, talk to load and act like they own the place...
That doesn't mean he didn't juice or something, but he doesn't look unreal.
If you look at him he is not super ripped or freaky big but somewhere in between and got a some meat and nice shape all over his body (except the the high calve insertions wich seems to be a black thing, at least the people that originated from eastern africa, the flatlands, savannes, running for predators was required, west africa had more rainforests and climbing trees/hills etc gave birth to more meaty calves)
Anyway telltale signs of serious juicing (and training offcoarse) is usually when the delts start to explode in size and also these once modest guys come in the gym, talk to load and act like they own the place...
benchmonster
New member
Vortexx,
God bless you, I know you want to believe that such and such shape, size, etc. . . is acheivable without juice, but that dude in the pics was built in a lab my friend.
No serious bodybuilder is clean. Thazzit.
B.
God bless you, I know you want to believe that such and such shape, size, etc. . . is acheivable without juice, but that dude in the pics was built in a lab my friend.
No serious bodybuilder is clean. Thazzit.
B.
coolcolj
New member
JPG is a natural!
If you were to see these pro shows in person you would know that - he doesn't have that huge peice of carcass look about him.
Hell every bodybuilding writer etc acknowledges that much.
That's what's wrong with bodybuilding now, if your crap then your natural, and if you half good no one believes your natural!
INSANE - you can't win!
FUBAR
If you were to see these pro shows in person you would know that - he doesn't have that huge peice of carcass look about him.
Hell every bodybuilding writer etc acknowledges that much.
That's what's wrong with bodybuilding now, if your crap then your natural, and if you half good no one believes your natural!
INSANE - you can't win!
FUBAR
benchmonster
New member
CoolCol
I agree he does not look like Paul Dillet, Ronnie Coleman, Dorian Yates, etc. . . but you do not have to be 300 lbs to be beyond what is capable of naturally.
It would absolutely shock you what a true IFBB pro does on a weekly basis to look that way. I have an actual weekly list of what one of them does, I will try and drag it up and post it on here. But just because you are not taking 10 to 20 different drugs per week, like many pros are doing, you are still not clean if you are using at all.
I am not advocating drug use. I am not trying to discourage anyone either, I am just trying to pass on information that I wish I had when I was younger. If you want to believe you are going to look like Arnold, or Jean Paul, or Franco Columbo, or any pro whose name you would recognize without juice, and often tons of it, you are deluding yourself. I know this. I was deluded for years.
Most can never achieve anywhere near those levels regardless of what they take and how they train. I am not trying to argue with anyone, but the use of performance enhancing drugs is far far more prevelant than many on this board choose to beleive.
B.
I agree he does not look like Paul Dillet, Ronnie Coleman, Dorian Yates, etc. . . but you do not have to be 300 lbs to be beyond what is capable of naturally.
It would absolutely shock you what a true IFBB pro does on a weekly basis to look that way. I have an actual weekly list of what one of them does, I will try and drag it up and post it on here. But just because you are not taking 10 to 20 different drugs per week, like many pros are doing, you are still not clean if you are using at all.
I am not advocating drug use. I am not trying to discourage anyone either, I am just trying to pass on information that I wish I had when I was younger. If you want to believe you are going to look like Arnold, or Jean Paul, or Franco Columbo, or any pro whose name you would recognize without juice, and often tons of it, you are deluding yourself. I know this. I was deluded for years.
Most can never achieve anywhere near those levels regardless of what they take and how they train. I am not trying to argue with anyone, but the use of performance enhancing drugs is far far more prevelant than many on this board choose to beleive.
B.
Heres the thing i belive you can look like a 60's bodybuilder naturally i know a few guys who are natural and look close to the guys like larry scott,dave draper etc also it depends on how short you are. if your short then with a shirt on you can reseble a bb pro i know a guy whos 5'4 hes 205 naturally with a shirt on he looks humongous barrel chest everything. but also steroid muscle looks diffrenty then regular i ve seen peopel weigh 200 naturally and 200 juiced they just look diffrent , cant comapre but also the regular persons perception of big is liek brad pitt in fight club so you can still be bigger then m,aybe people
N
nclifter6feet6
Guest
i noticed alot of roiders got fat faces. and there veins stay dialated and veins looked deformed like in there calves
louden_swain
New member
I believe that you can get pretty big naturally, but not the size of the guys at the olympia. I am a big fan of Frank Sepe, Skip Lacour, and Mike O'hearn, but face it. . . these guys would get blown off stage at the Olympia. Really, it depends on genetics.
aurelius
New member
louden_swain said:
Come on, man. All those guys you mentioned use.
Notpuff, ALL the famous bodybuilders of the 50s used steroids and they most certainly did in the 60s as well. If you don´t know this then you know much less than myself about lifting and since I am really only strong beginner, you know hardly anything. There´s nothing wrong with simply not knowing, by the way.
benchmonster
New member
notpuff said:
I have this great plot of land out in Arizona. I can make you a great deal on it. It faces the pacific ocean, great view, lots of good waves for surfing, and tons of fine looking honey's to spy on. Only 10,000 dollars an acre. Better hurry, it is going fast.
B.
benchmonster
New member
b fold the truth said:
Read again what my big smart friend wrote on the subject.
And I have not given up. I am just realistic enough to know what it takes, and what is possible.
B.
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nclifter6feet6
Guest
you can get huge and ripped naturally. its all about changing your diet . ill be there one day not too long
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nclifter6feet6
Guest
60's bodybuilders aint all that, plenty of naturals got them beat
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nclifter6feet6
Guest
ive seen the 60's bodybuilders in this magazine i have. i know of about 3 at my gym that has them beat. maybe your just ignorant
Robert Jan
New member
Ive seen pics of a guy I know for sure is natural and is only 19 and hes huge and ripped by my definition
I know two brothers : one of them was Mr Holland way back and he even competed against Arnold in the 80's. He is good genetics+roids, but his brother has INSANE GENETICS and uses no roids at all. before his brother touched the iron, most people already thought he was bodybuilding because was already huge and had some shape as well.
His brother convinced him to train with him on a 4 days a week basis and within 1 month he already had to buy larger clothes (and we are not talking pot-belly here) . Most people would dismiss this as AAS use, but i KNOW that he is one of those rare freaks by nature.
As a matter a fact after 3 months he decided to cut back on his training volume , as het got a responsible management job in the telecom industry and he "grew too fast" and began to look like a Jay cutler piece of meat, leading his customers to believe that he couldn't possibly be a smart fast acting executive....
He now trains 2 days a week only (upper body / lowerbody day) and still gets much more out of it than most of us would.
But he is one rare exceptions (i also know one super ripped guy and he eats junk food bigtime) and I think that we should rephrase the question to "How big or cut can the average Joe or slightly more talented talented Joe get naturally"?
I certainly think that a nice streamlined beach physique is possible for every average joe if they are willing to put the time and work in. Maybe not freaky big or super ripped, but you can find a balance in between : some size, combined with a decent %BF like say 8-10 percent. and above all, if you consitantly work all body parts and are not one of those that skips legs etc, you most likely develope a SYMMETRICAL physique wich gets you better ratings than that AAS upperbody here with 20" guns walking on sticks.
I have nothing against AAS but you got to set realistic goals for yourself. Do I wanna be a IFBB pro , a strong Man, a powerlifter or some Mens Health Front cover page..... Unless you are a freak by nature or got more than average genetics+ willing to take AAS you skip the IFBB part. With a lot of dedication the average Joe can be a decent powerlifter or a medium ranking strongman.
The last category, you know, the slightly beefed up fitness male model is the most realistic goal if you decide to stay natural and doing it for looks rather than strength.
yes, I know still a lot of this fitness models are moderate users anyway and rely on eca and clen to help bring the washboard out. But if you are willing to invest several years and be pretty religious about your training and eating habits than it can be achieved and from that point you can maintain it and be slighty less religious.......
Make your decision and do what it takes.
His brother convinced him to train with him on a 4 days a week basis and within 1 month he already had to buy larger clothes (and we are not talking pot-belly here) . Most people would dismiss this as AAS use, but i KNOW that he is one of those rare freaks by nature.
As a matter a fact after 3 months he decided to cut back on his training volume , as het got a responsible management job in the telecom industry and he "grew too fast" and began to look like a Jay cutler piece of meat, leading his customers to believe that he couldn't possibly be a smart fast acting executive....
He now trains 2 days a week only (upper body / lowerbody day) and still gets much more out of it than most of us would.
But he is one rare exceptions (i also know one super ripped guy and he eats junk food bigtime) and I think that we should rephrase the question to "How big or cut can the average Joe or slightly more talented talented Joe get naturally"?
I certainly think that a nice streamlined beach physique is possible for every average joe if they are willing to put the time and work in. Maybe not freaky big or super ripped, but you can find a balance in between : some size, combined with a decent %BF like say 8-10 percent. and above all, if you consitantly work all body parts and are not one of those that skips legs etc, you most likely develope a SYMMETRICAL physique wich gets you better ratings than that AAS upperbody here with 20" guns walking on sticks.
I have nothing against AAS but you got to set realistic goals for yourself. Do I wanna be a IFBB pro , a strong Man, a powerlifter or some Mens Health Front cover page..... Unless you are a freak by nature or got more than average genetics+ willing to take AAS you skip the IFBB part. With a lot of dedication the average Joe can be a decent powerlifter or a medium ranking strongman.
The last category, you know, the slightly beefed up fitness male model is the most realistic goal if you decide to stay natural and doing it for looks rather than strength.
yes, I know still a lot of this fitness models are moderate users anyway and rely on eca and clen to help bring the washboard out. But if you are willing to invest several years and be pretty religious about your training and eating habits than it can be achieved and from that point you can maintain it and be slighty less religious.......
Make your decision and do what it takes.
I will post some soon, i just came back from a lay-off of 6 months due to broken ankle and i am still not able to do heavy squats and lunges so i did lose a lot of size and hardness of the legs (yes, me that dispises the upperbody heroes hehe) but I will post the pics anyway to backup all this crap i have been posting lately 
