Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below
napsgear
genezapharmateuticals
domestic-supply
puritysourcelabs
UGL OZ
UGFREAK
napsgeargenezapharmateuticals domestic-supplypuritysourcelabsUGL OZUGFREAK

Seriously?! I effing give up. Longish followup and vague vent.

musclemom

I Told You So ...
EF VIP
Hello to anybody who is interested enough to read this thread. If you're reading this, you get the update.

I haven't been around for a long time. I drop in, read some threads but have nothing interesting/amusing or worthwhile to contribute -- and plenty on this board feel that is no more than the normal state of affairs when it comes to me so it is what it is.

My tendons are basically fucked. Back in the fall of 2010 I had two rotator cuff tears in my right shoulder. Went alternative and tried a treatment called PRP. One tendon was completely healed within three treatments. The second tendon has been stubborn and there's still a small area of thinning that the doctor wants to treat one final time ... meanwhile, in the fall of 2011, totally out of the blue and for absolutely no apparent reason, the tendon in my left shoulder went bad. Only one small tear but after two treatments it's still giving me misery. Oh, and I've also got bursitis in both shoulders, joy.

Had a follow-up on the 14th of this month and it was decided to go ahead with one more treatment of the right shoulder. The tear in the left shoulder is very small and I can't understand why it hurts so much. I'm particularly weather sensitive (best barometer on the block you could say).

While I was getting the ultrasounds on my shoulders I asked the doctor if he could check my elbows, which have been bitching at me more than usual. A few years into doing transcription full time I would get elbow problems after particularly rough marathon sessions and figured I had tennis elbow (my mom had it when she was about my age). It used to be just my right elbow but now my left is kicking up to. So the doc ultrasounds both elbows, surprise, surprise, the tendons are thinning and if not torn, verging on it (the technical term my doctor to describe their condition was "mush").

Joy and BTW, WTF?!

We decide to PRP the right shoulder, and prolotherapy the left should and elbows. I'm going to have four joints stuck in June, goody.

So a day or two after the follow-up I go for a nice walk. Weather has been beautiful. I didn't do anything spectacular, just went for a nice 2 mile walk and admired the spring flowers.

Next day I could barely use my left leg. The knee was fucked and painful down the side of the joint.

So I've had this happen before, but it was in my right knee. My knees ache in the winter and bad weather and it sounds like I'm walking on Rice Crispies when I go up stairs. I've had my right knee go wonky on me a few times before but it always happened when I turned funny or something like that and it hurt immediately. This time it was my left knee, and my knee felt fine during and after the walk. I rested it up and figured it would be okay after a week, ummm, no. It's alright as long as I take things very easy and don't spend very much time walking, climbing stairs or whatnot, basically, it'll start bothering me if I climb the stairs in my own house three or four times.

So I'm waiting for the doctor to send me a prescription for knee and ankle x-rays (yeah, those hurt too sometimes, as well as my hip joints).

I've got a prescription for about 8 different blood tests to rule out inflammatory conditions/diseases. I asked my chiropractor the other day, what should I hope for? Lupus or rheumatoid arthritis?

Y'know what kills me? I've always been active, a walker, exercised pretty regularly, lifted weights but always safely, not outrageously heavy and with good form, took vitamins, have always eaten a really healthy diet with virtually no processed foods and have been gluten free for over ten years. Fat lotta good it's all done me. My back and neck are still as screwed up as they've been since I was a kid, however, they actually feel pretty damned good compared to my arms and legs (expensive cervical pillow and a Tempurpedic mattress were a very good investment).

Before anybody asks, no, no idea what this is or what's causing it and the doctor won't hazard a guess until he sees the blood work. He says there are situations where tendons just start going to hell for no clear reason.

Oh, and anybody who makes any smartass cracks about fixing it with crystals and chanting, go fuck yourselves.

Alternatively, nobody needs to suggest GH, I've been on growth hormone boosting peptides for nearly a year now. My husband has even wondered if that contributed somehow to the problem but I can't imagine that it would and I'm not messing about with straight GH, I've got enough screwed up in my body right now.

For those who don't have interest in reading the entire post: My tendons are blowing out, both arms are fucked, legs are probably next.

As anyone who enjoys physical activity could imagine, I find this entire state of affairs disheartening. I miss my weights but I have a sneaking suspicion that part of my life will become a memory. Pity, I've got a fucking awesome home gym.

That is all.
 
That sucks. I'm really sorry to hear that. Unfortunately, I don't have any advice or information that you'd find useful, so sympathy is all i can offer.
 
that sucks MM. truly. i know how important exercise is to you and your health too and it sucks that you've tried to do everything right and still had these problems. i know what it feels like to have bad knees, Ive been suffering from PFS and arthritis in both knees for almost 10 yrs now and sooner than later I;ll be a candidate for knee replacement (Im too fucking young for this if you ask me, at only 41)

Hope you can at least get some relief and some answers soon
 
really sorry for all your problems...genuinely
I can only offer sympathy and an ear if you need it

gotta feel bad to feel like you did it all right and it all went wrong somewhere

I hope its nothing autoimmune but it sure as hell sounds systemic ..generally one joint goes not all at once otherwise...no?

idk

I wish you luck in getting answers and hopefully work arounds
 
Damn...suddenly I feel less sorry for myself about having a patellar tendon issue in one leg recently...could always be worse. Hope you are able to find the right treatment to turn thnigs around.
 
Thank you all for your kindness.

Smurf: I actually thought I only had PFS, I could live with that. I was convinced, in fact, because my knees always felt better a) when I wear shoes and b) when I could deadlift regularly and since I can't do ass to floor squats the ROM was just right for what would be exercises prescribed. With this last little episode, I'm not so sure.

Cindy: Lupus (maybe combined with fibromyalgia) is the one I'm suspecting the most. I don't have joint swelling or deformity, which would definitely mean RA. Plus, while they say it's not genetic, one of my mother's sisters had lupus.

Shirl: Yeah, I agree it sounds autoimmune (I've already got gluten intolerance, though I don't think celiac -- never formally diagnosed). Rotator cuff tears alone, even two shoulders, I could chalk up to wear and tear but everything disintegrating, plus the feet hurting, not a good sign. Unfortunately, the treatment for AI shit, damn, half the time it's just as bad as the problem. And no way I'm going on corticos, period. Let's add osteo into the mix, yay ...

Just wanted to drop in and say Hi and , even if it's not the best news. Thanks all for the kind thoughts, I'm gonna go read a book -- Musclemom's back says it's to get away from the computer for a few hours.

Hope the spring is treating you folks better. So far 2012 sucks the big hairy wet one for me and my friends/coven, seems like most everyone's health and finances are going to shit in my immediate circle *sigh*
 
Sorry, MM. *hugs*

I can't imagine not being able to do simple physical tasks without hurting. Keep us updated. It sounds serious but I pray it's something passing or treatable.

:heart:
 
sorry MM i hope everything gets better for you
 
Good luck MM. I know it sucks. I hope it's not serious and you find something that helps.
As I get a little older, I'm amazed at how sometimes a simple task can be painful.
 
That really sucks, what about rubberbands Instead of weights?
Very interesting post, maybe some kind of IV vitamins like vitamin C etc.
 
Blue can prolly fix u right up.

This must be Chris

Yes in fact, I can help her since I have Lupus. had lyme and 90% of my client base are Fibro and CFS clients.

MM. msg me if you want my web site and info. If you're into natural healing, I can try to help you out best I can.

Sorry to hear about your issues, don't get too down. I still lift weights and function at 95% capacity.
 
By the way, Lupus is not a clear cut dx, so many other issues need to be ruled out before.
Fibro is a "phantom dx" when docs are clueless as to why there is pain and inflammation.

Have you ever been tested for Lyme? Elisa testing has a 97% failure rate and the Western Blot will not be done unless you show a + Elisa.
You would need to have your blood send to a reputable tick lab like Igenex to have a lyme test done, but even then, chronic lyme rarely shows up.
If you get a few + lyme bands on the western blot, an Lyme doc will treat based on clinic symptoms.

Something to think about as well.....though I don't know enough about your symptoms to say if you're a candidate for lyme testing.
 
As anyone who enjoys physical activity could imagine, I find this entire state of affairs disheartening. I miss my weights but I have a sneaking suspicion that part of my life will become a memory. Pity, I've got a fucking awesome home gym.

That is all.

Don't defeat yourself with thinking this way. Say you will lift again and you will be well.
Power of positive thinking.....it plays a huge role in healing :-)

I was desperate and in deep depression when I was dx with Lupus, then lyme. I had to give up the gym and go on a sick leave from work. I thought my world was ending.
I came back around (yes by treating myself naturally after meds didn't work......hush to those who want to dis me) and am now in really good shape.
I also dug deep spiritually, got rid of much negative debris from my life. Left friends, relationships, changed careers and life started to get better.

Believe you will be ok... :-)
 
MM, so sorry to hear this. Was wondering where you've been and what you've been up to. I actually started thinking of blueta when you (MM) mentioned lupus. You two should definitely talk. I hope you begin to recover and get better soon.
 
Sorry, MM. I also am having all kinds of joint problems (left ankle which leads to left knee, and right shoulder) and I've had to seriously curtail my exercise routine. Even yoga, bike riding, and swimming aggravate the shoulder.

I'm curious to know what kind of Dx and treatment you get.

Stay strong.
 
I'm going to bookmark this page and come back after prp has failed you, and you go back to get re-evaluated and there isn't enough to salvage.

I'm just telling it like it is. There have been systematic RC double blinded trials and they all say it offers no real benefits. (prp)

Fail for not actually bookmarking it!
 
Blu: I've got a script for (I think) eight blood tests, Lyme is among them. I've never been tested for it but the doctor I'm dealing with is a sharp cookie. I had the vaccine but who the hell knows.

And I'm with you. I "don't believe" in autoimmune disease, not as a diagnosis. I consider it a syndrome of symptom complexes that manifest similarly but anything that "conventional" medicine says "has no known cause" has to be caused by crap that Western medicine doesn't recognize (i.e., toxins, low grade intolerance, environmental issues, etc.)

Chris: You're a Western trained physician with a conventional mindset. Your opinions are useless to me *shrug* Unfortunate. As I understand it, you're a D.O. Used to be good (read, useful) guys. I've lost all trust in conventional medicine, viewing the industry (with the exception of trauma treatment) as a shill for the Pharmaceutical Industry (i.e., treat the symptoms, screw fixing -- never mind finding -- the causes).

Unless a doctor is willing to say to me "Environmental toxins are a genuine health concern, at least for some individuals" I really have no time to waste with their opinions. The doctor I'm seeing now is a D.O. who has been practicing 23 years and is double board certified (family AND sports medicine) will say those things to me, as well as discussing nutritional, lifestyle and alternative treatment modalities.
 
Let's make things clear, I'm not trying to help or give you advice.
Please take this as I'm saying it, don't flatter yourself.

Nothing anyone with the "party line" mindset has to say can help me. All they could/would do is give me painkillers, corticosteroids, trigger point injections and a fast track to a Scooter.

If I'd listened to conventional medicine 25+ years ago I would have spent the past two decades on painkillers and may have had multiple level spinal surgeries by now. I would also undoubtedly be virtually immobile, and that long before my tendons began their downhill slide.

Admittedly, I'm currently at an impasse. I still have a few tricks up my sleeve, though. I haven't given up, I'm just flummoxed.
 
Please take this as I'm saying it, don't flatter yourself.

Nothing anyone with the "party line" mindset has to say can help me. All they could/would do is give me painkillers, corticosteroids, trigger point injections and a fast track to a Scooter.

If I'd listened to conventional medicine 25+ years ago I would have spent the past two decades on painkillers and may have had multiple level spinal surgeries by now. I would also undoubtedly be virtually immobile, and that long before my tendons began their downhill slide.

Admittedly, I'm currently at an impasse. I still have a few tricks up my sleeve, though. I haven't given up, I'm just flummoxed.

Most of us who aren't surgeons actually counsel patients against spinal surgeries, but hey, why let facts get in the way of your story. Hope you get fixed!
 
Sorry MM, I was hoping things would turn around for you. :(

After year and a half of unsubstantial finds from approximately a dozen specialists, I'm directing my care towards Docs that are rooted in research.

Next week I have Rheumatology and Orthopedic appoints with faculty from LSU & Tulane medical schools.

I feel your frustration, after this I'm done ... time to move on towards acceptance.


It sucks! :(
 
Most of us who aren't surgeons actually counsel patients against spinal surgeries, but hey, why let facts get in the way of your story. Hope you get fixed!
Oh what a telling comment.

I knew that, and a good NEUROsurgeon will also counsel a patient against surgery for congenital and/or degenerative spinal conditions.

However, most people WITH congenital and/or degenerative spinal problems usually end up IN the surgeon's office sooner or later, because eventually the painkillers can't manage it, or mobility becomes an issue. I've worked for enough orthos in my time to know that their first opinion is CUT, damn the long term consequences. I know that, average people DON'T. I've also had an opportunity to listen to the results over the years. I've heard about people who have had three and four spinal surgeries at alternating levels over less than 20 years, and they're STILL in pain, are on a pharmacy of meds and have no quality of life.

You must really think I'm thick. 11+ years in orthopedics, neurosurgery and neurology, why do you think I went the alternative treatments? Since I started my PRP I've met five people who have had shoulder surgery, three have had excellent outcomes, the other two are worse off than when they went under the knife. My doctor told me that's pretty darned close to the stats. I stand by my original decision and if what was happening with my tendons was "normal" wear and tear I think I'd be golden and either well into or out of PT by now. Crap just keeps blowing out and until a cause is found, it's just going to keep blowing out. "Conventional" medicine doesn't believe in finding causes, it just believes in treating the symptoms and slapping a Bandaid (or painkillers or antidepressants) on the patient who expects more.
 
Oh what a telling comment.

I knew that, and a good NEUROsurgeon will also counsel a patient against surgery for congenital and/or degenerative spinal conditions.

However, most people WITH congenital and/or degenerative spinal problems usually end up IN the surgeon's office sooner or later, because eventually the painkillers can't manage it, or mobility becomes an issue. I've worked for enough orthos in my time to know that their first opinion is CUT, damn the long term consequences. I know that, average people DON'T. I've also had an opportunity to listen to the results over the years. I've heard about people who have had three and four spinal surgeries at alternating levels over less than 20 years, and they're STILL in pain, are on a pharmacy of meds and have no quality of life.

You must really think I'm thick. 11+ years in orthopedics, neurosurgery and neurology, why do you think I went the alternative treatments? Since I started my PRP I've met five people who have had shoulder surgery, three have had excellent outcomes, the other two are worse off than when they went under the knife. My doctor told me that's pretty darned close to the stats. I stand by my original decision and if what was happening with my tendons was "normal" wear and tear I think I'd be golden and either well into or out of PT by now. Crap just keeps blowing out and until a cause is found, it's just going to keep blowing out. "Conventional" medicine doesn't believe in finding causes, it just believes in treating the symptoms and slapping a Bandaid (or painkillers or antidepressants) on the patient who expects more.

I would have thought by now you'd realize I wont ready your lengthy posts. Hope you get better tho. I really do.
 
I would have thought by now you'd realize I wont ready your lengthy posts. Hope you get better tho. I really do.
You won't read my lengthier posts? Then I won't bother writing them, I'll remember that going forward. Kind of the same attitude conventional doctors have about listening to me when I would actually try to tell them what my symptoms are.

Thanks for the well wishes.
 
Oh what a telling comment.

I knew that, and a good NEUROsurgeon will also counsel a patient against surgery for congenital and/or degenerative spinal conditions.

However, most people WITH congenital and/or degenerative spinal problems usually end up IN the surgeon's office sooner or later, because eventually the painkillers can't manage it, or mobility becomes an issue. I've worked for enough orthos in my time to know that their first opinion is CUT, damn the long term consequences. I know that, average people DON'T. I've also had an opportunity to listen to the results over the years. I've heard about people who have had three and four spinal surgeries at alternating levels over less than 20 years, and they're STILL in pain, are on a pharmacy of meds and have no quality of life.

You must really think I'm thick. 11+ years in orthopedics, neurosurgery and neurology, why do you think I went the alternative treatments? Since I started my PRP I've met five people who have had shoulder surgery, three have had excellent outcomes, the other two are worse off than when they went under the knife. My doctor told me that's pretty darned close to the stats. I stand by my original decision and if what was happening with my tendons was "normal" wear and tear I think I'd be golden and either well into or out of PT by now. Crap just keeps blowing out and until a cause is found, it's just going to keep blowing out. "Conventional" medicine doesn't believe in finding causes, it just believes in treating the symptoms and slapping a Bandaid (or painkillers or antidepressants) on the patient who expects more.
I'm finding this out the hard way too.... getting my symptoms treated and no one giving a fuck about what is causing it, it's like trimming the leaves of a weed instead of just finding a way to pull the sucker out.... :mad:
 
Sorry to hear you are still having trouble. I hope you get better!
 
I'm finding this out the hard way too.... getting my symptoms treated and no one giving a fuck about what is causing it, it's like trimming the leaves of a weed instead of just finding a way to pull the sucker out.... :mad:


I've been really fortunate in this regard that my GP genuinely wants to know "why" and directs me to good specialists that also want to know "why"

I also always make a point to ask instead of tell... because I'm genuinely interested and I don't come across as 'difficult"
kind of sets up a conversation about things instead

that said my arms get used for pincushions a lot and aside from a functional mri I think Ive had every other imaging known to man :(
 
I'm finding this out the hard way too.... getting my symptoms treated and no one giving a fuck about what is causing it, it's like trimming the leaves of a weed instead of just finding a way to pull the sucker out.... :mad:

It's cuz you're fat. Now go back to your quesadilla explosion salad and then slap that cpap machine on your face.
 
MM, please keep me posted on your Lyme results. They are not easy to read. Also, if you need any help or input, I'll try to help you as much as I can without an actual consult.

Good luck and feel better.
 
Sorry MM, I was hoping things would turn around for you. :(

After year and a half of unsubstantial finds from approximately a dozen specialists, I'm directing my care towards Docs that are rooted in research.

Next week I have Rheumatology and Orthopedic appoints with faculty from LSU & Tulane medical schools.

I feel your frustration, after this I'm done ... time to move on towards acceptance.


It sucks! :(

[silver lining] I've accumulated an assload of pharmaceuticals [/silver lining]
 
That's a shame to hear MuscleMom. I loathe trying to recover from injuries (especially as my work requires a good level of physical conditioning / health). It always gets that little bit harder as we get older & injuries occur at previous downgraded areas. Hopefully like a lot of women you aren't prone to bone degenerating diseases (like my own mum) as experiencing your hips & spine deteriorate is obviously quite dehabilitating.
 
[silver lining] I've accumulated an assload of pharmaceuticals [/silver lining]

I believe we all know what kinds of "assloads" you take and it sure isn't pharmaceutical stuff -- but at least it's all natural.
 
Just wondering if you had a bone density scan too? If tendons are going to hell I would be curious to make sure my bones are ok,
wish I could be of more help but I hope you get to the bottom of this soon, I wish you well and try and stay positive :)

Sent from my GT-S5830D using Tapatalk
 
Just wondering if you had a bone density scan too? If tendons are going to hell I would be curious to make sure my bones are ok,
wish I could be of more help but I hope you get to the bottom of this soon, I wish you well and try and stay positive :)

Sent from my GT-S5830D using Tapatalk
Not something I'm really worried about. I have virtually none of the risk factors for osteo (I'm Caucasian, that's about it) topped off with the fact that I'm very tall (5'9) and big boned and until 2010, when the first bad tears became unbearable, I had been lifting weights, on and off, for more than 20 years.

I've been living with pain in one way or another for a very long time (since my teenaged years starting with my back). I honestly don't think this is all happening "suddenly," things have hurt off and on for more than 15 years, I dismissed it and could live with it and stay active until recently.

Yay mid 40s.
 
Just as a thought... perhaps discontinuing the peptide use? Excessive GH, either natural or synthetic can result in joint pain and sensitive tendons.
 
I've been living with pain in one way or another for a very long time (since my teenaged years starting with my back).

occasional pain is fun and provides a good back drop to provide contrast for pleasurable experiences

pain everyday of every waking hour sucks ass




just sayin'
 
Sorry this ran long but bear with me here you chemical wizards:

Okay, will someone explain to me WHY stop the peptides when the FIRST advice I got back when I was first diagnosed with rotator cuff tears is to START GH?

And could I get a little clarification on the term "dries out the joints?" I have bursal inflammation but the cartilage and joint surfaces themselves seem to be okay (have to get the knees x-rayed but the shoulder joint was fine).

I'd rather not stop the peptides for a couple of reasons, there's a vanity factor but they've also helped with a couple of longstanding health problems (a skin condition) not the least of which was shitty, shitty sleep. I thought the GH affected the joints themselves (cartilage and bone) and otherwise boosted healing.

The thing is, my elbows, shoulders and knees have been bothering me to one degree or another for a long time (decade plus) but I lived with it. It was only when the right shoulder got to the point where I was virtually unable to use the arm that I finally caved in and saw a doctor (and I hadn't touched peptides at that point). My doctor did express the opinion, and I'm inclined to agree, that I have longstanding injuries and it's aging (let's be realistic, I'm 47 here peeps) that's causing them to finally give out. My concern is if I cut out the peptides shit's gonna fall apart worse/faster.
 
MM are you gluten free? I've had only 3 lupus flares in 8 months since going off gluten. I recommend all my clients with any inflammatory illness get off gluten for 6 weeks to see if their symptoms improve.

Of course, gluten is not always the cause, but gives the body a good break from the glues.

I'm 45, there is hope for you, promise :-) Don't give up and keep researching and searching for what's right for you to heal.

hug
 
I'm curious about the peptides too cos I've thought about going on them. Do they really work? Will being on them downregulate the body's natural GH production mechanism?
Also, there are so many of them out there, which ones and from whom? I'll have to PM you MM.
 
I'm curious about the peptides too cos I've thought about going on them. Do they really work? Will being on them downregulate the body's natural GH production mechanism?
Also, there are so many of them out there, which ones and from whom? I'll have to PM you MM.

PM rottonwillow, she knows her shit when it comes to peptides brobert
 
The video is is interesting. I read some other stuff by him.

Me too. It was a good book, especially the part about how to deal with bad things happening to you, how to find happiness even in sickness and constant pain and what motivates people to work and do things for you. The part about spending was interesting, if you're the type of person that gets pleasure from spending, how to go about it to keep that going instead of constantly needing to shop. I'm not a huge spender anyway but he really is right. Instead of buying new furniture for an entire room at all once he suggests you prolong the "happy feeling" from buying by spreading out purchases. Buy a couch, enjoy it then buy a new table etc. Things you don't like to do, get them done all at once instead of taking breaks etc. It was good.
 
Me too. It was a good book, especially the part about how to deal with bad things happening to you, how to find happiness even in sickness and constant pain and what motivates people to work and do things for you. The part about spending was interesting, if you're the type of person that gets pleasure from spending, how to go about it to keep that going instead of constantly needing to shop. I'm not a huge spender anyway but he really is right. Instead of buying new furniture for an entire room at all once he suggests you prolong the "happy feeling" from buying by spreading out purchases. Buy a couch, enjoy it then buy a new table etc. Things you don't like to do, get them done all at once instead of taking breaks etc. It was good.

That last part doesn't jive with his thing about taking of the bandages while he was in the burn ward, though.
 
That last part doesn't jive with his thing about taking of the bandages while he was in the burn ward, though.

I know, I think the nurses came up with that because they didn't like removing the bandages. I can't remember the pain part of the book to be honest. Something about hope and being able to adapt idr
 
Sorry this ran long but bear with me here you chemical wizards:

Okay, will someone explain to me WHY stop the peptides when the FIRST advice I got back when I was first diagnosed with rotator cuff tears is to START GH?

And could I get a little clarification on the term "dries out the joints?" I have bursal inflammation but the cartilage and joint surfaces themselves seem to be okay (have to get the knees x-rayed but the shoulder joint was fine).

I'd rather not stop the peptides for a couple of reasons, there's a vanity factor but they've also helped with a couple of longstanding health problems (a skin condition) not the least of which was shitty, shitty sleep. I thought the GH affected the joints themselves (cartilage and bone) and otherwise boosted healing.

The thing is, my elbows, shoulders and knees have been bothering me to one degree or another for a long time (decade plus) but I lived with it. It was only when the right shoulder got to the point where I was virtually unable to use the arm that I finally caved in and saw a doctor (and I hadn't touched peptides at that point). My doctor did express the opinion, and I'm inclined to agree, that I have longstanding injuries and it's aging (let's be realistic, I'm 47 here peeps) that's causing them to finally give out. My concern is if I cut out the peptides shit's gonna fall apart worse/faster.

I'd stop the peptides for a few months just for the sake of experimentation.

They're supposed to help, but if you're chasing low-level toxins or some other subtle diet/environmental issue, the elephant in the room would be the peptides.

When you hear hoof claps, think horses not zebras.

Hope this helps!
 
Top Bottom