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Remember That MRI I Was Getting? Got the Results.

musclemom

musclemom

I Told You So ...
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As you can probably guess from the frowny face, it's not good.

Long story short, rotator cuff tear. But of course, me being me, I never do anything half assed, I have not one but TWO tears (don't have the report in front of me, but I think biceps and supraspinatus).

So the doc I'm seeing is a sports medicine guy, into alternative stuff. We basically got four choices:
1. Operate. Which means arm in an immobilizer, then PT. Long, miserable recovery, no use of my arm for a while then upwards of a year before I'm back to full function.
2. Nothing. Shoot it with cortisone and PT and hope for the best. Fuck that shit, it ain't gotten better yet, it ain't gonna get better.
3. Prolotherapy. Not covered by insurance, set of six to eight injections, gonna cost about $1,200 and about 70% chance of improving things. No down time.
4. PRP (platelet rich plasma). They suck out some of my blood, run it in a centrifuge, discard the plasma and inject the packed cells directly into the injured area, using ultrasound to direct the injections, over the course of three sessions. Probably not covered by my insurance (they'll check) if not, $2,700. At least they take credit cards. Again, no down time and better success rate than the prolotherapy.

So I'm going for option #4. If that doesn't work then I've still got option #1 to fall back on.
 
chris302001 said:
prp doesnt work. get it fixed. shoulder pt sucks.
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Thanks for the vote of confidence, doc.

There are a whole host of reasons why I don't want to get surgery, I'll kick myself if I rush under the knife, and it's still available if the PRP doesn't work. I believe in the body's ability to heal itself given the proper set of circumstances.

As for why not to get surgery, let's start with the first: I'm self employed. No workee = no payee. Nevermind the recovery, which I've heard ranges from unpleasant to a fucking nightmare.

It's one of those things that they seem to be using more in Europe:
http://www.shoulderdoc.co.uk/article.asp?article=1323
 
I'm going to bookmark this page and come back after prp has failed you, and you go back to get re-evaluated and there isn't enough to salvage.

I'm just telling it like it is. There have been systematic RC double blinded trials and they all say it offers no real benefits. (prp)
 
chris302001 said:
I'm going to bookmark this page and come back after prp has failed you, and you go back to get re-evaluated and there isn't enough to salvage.

I'm just telling it like it is. There have been systematic RC double blinded trials and they all say it offers no real benefits. (prp)
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It can't cause any harm, they had good results with it in the study in UK (I added a link to the previous post).

And as for nothing to salvage, mine's chronic not acute.

Stop being such a negative nancy. Put yourself in my shoes. Exactly how long could YOU go without a paycheck, or worker's comp, and the use of your dominant hand? (and I don't have anything like AFLAC).

I have to try.
 
Ummmm, I know you transcribe neuro stuff, but lateral epicondylitis? The mechanism of injury and tissue damage is nothing compared to the mechanics of a rotator cuff tear.


Also:

" Future decisions for application of the PRP for lateral epicondylitis should be confirmed by further follow-up from this trial and should take into account possible costs and harms as well as benefits."

basically means that it wasn't powered for shit.
 
PRP has really struggled in a number of applications. It's a solution in search of a problem.

I'd get it arthroscopically repaired as well. Stay mild on the pain meds and keep your shoulder iced down. It makes the recovery sooooo much easier.
 
My brother had that surgery and he said it did jackshit for him. Doesn't mean it won't work for you, but I know his stance on this surgery, lol.
 
Yes, it's experimental. I realize that. But here's another interesting article (I c/p the part I found most interesting).

PRP Therapy Revisited (Already) Science Life Blog « University of Chicago Medical Center

I feel that physicians and patients should remain “cautiously optimistic” regarding the use of PRP. Over time, more and more studies will be published regarding the effectiveness of PRP. This study is a perfect example that PRP is not the solution to every problem. However, this is only one study on one specific disorder in the human body. Much more research is needed to determine if this study can be reproduced in other studies as well as what the effectiveness is of PRP on other parts of the body. In my opinion, the risks of PRP use are low and the benefits, in certain situations, may warrant its use. However, only research in the future will be able to specifically determine when and where PRP is specifically effective.
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If it fails, all I've spent is the cost of a nice vacation and I'll create a thread, in all caps and everything saying "I WAS WRONG AND CHRIS WAS RIGHT."

If it works, though, c'mon how interesting would that be? The guy is a "real" doctor, D.O. and everything, graduated in 1989, board certified in family and internal medicine.
 
musclemom said:
Yes, it's experimental. I realize that. But here's another interesting article (I c/p the part I found most interesting).

PRP Therapy Revisited (Already) Science Life Blog « University of Chicago Medical Center



If it fails, all I've spent is the cost of a nice vacation and I'll create a thread, in all caps and everything saying "I WAS WRONG AND CHRIS WAS RIGHT."

If it works, though, c'mon how interesting would that be? The guy is a "real" doctor, D.O. and everything, graduated in 1989, board certified in family and internal medicine.
Click to expand...

This is a good way of looking at it. You're taking an economic risk after weighing the pro's and con's -- I certainly can't argue with that.

I really hope it works for you.
 
I'd pick option number two, but thats me....


also...sux that it wasn't good news...the mri report
 
Damn...that sucks. I know I'd be besides myself looking at such a long recovery after surgery; I damn near lost my mind after I had my left knee done 10 years ago. As long as the alternative therapy can't make things worse, and you are disciplined enough to not do anything that could make the tears worse while you delay this surgery, then I think it's worth a shot since it's not that expensive. Best of luck.
 
musclemom said:
As you can probably guess from the frowny face, it's not good.

Long story short, rotator cuff tear. But of course, me being me, I never do anything half assed, I have not one but TWO tears (don't have the report in front of me, but I think biceps and supraspinatus).

So the doc I'm seeing is a sports medicine guy, into alternative stuff. We basically got four choices:
1. Operate. Which means arm in an immobilizer, then PT. Long, miserable recovery, no use of my arm for a while then upwards of a year before I'm back to full function.
2. Nothing. Shoot it with cortisone and PT and hope for the best. Fuck that shit, it ain't gotten better yet, it ain't gonna get better.
3. Prolotherapy. Not covered by insurance, set of six to eight injections, gonna cost about $1,200 and about 70% chance of improving things. No down time.
4. PRP (platelet rich plasma). They suck out some of my blood, run it in a centrifuge, discard the plasma and inject the packed cells directly into the injured area, using ultrasound to direct the injections, over the course of three sessions. Probably not covered by my insurance (they'll check) if not, $2,700. At least they take credit cards. Again, no down time and better success rate than the prolotherapy.

So I'm going for option #4. If that doesn't work then I've still got option #1 to fall back on.
Click to expand...



had PRP loved it.. addicted, told my doc to lock away his centrifuge, its like liquid life.
imagine what causes you to grow as a child imagine having that in a vial. thats what PRP IS. im begging him to give me more, iv never been happier with it, i got an 800$ shot in my hip/ass area.
 
shirlene29 said:
I'd pick option number two, but thats me....


also...sux that it wasn't good news...the mri report
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So far there is virtually no atrophy and the tears are tough to see (I only got films, so I can't post pics). It's going to get worse if I just kill the pain and work it, even in PT.

I've noticed if I rest the SHIT out of my arm i.e., basically don't lift anything heavier than a full glass with the arm and use my left whenever possible, it does start feeling a LOT better. I really believe if it could just get a little push it might heal. Maybe even causing just the local irritation of an injection into the injuries alone could wake up my immune system enough to go to work. And I honestly believe the body has a virtual infinite capacity to repair itself, as long as we don't interfere with it.
 
bren565 said:
had PRP loved it.. addicted, told my doc to lock away his centrifuge, its like liquid life.
imagine what causes you to grow as a child imagine having that in a vial. thats what PRP IS. im begging him to give me more, iv never been happier with it, i got an 800$ shot in my hip/ass area.
Click to expand...

platelets and plasma make kids grow? those bastards lied to me!
 
chris302001 said:
platelets and plasma make kids grow? those bastards lied to me!
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i apologize what i mean to say is, its literally the actual foundation of what causes you to heal, grow, repair, it causes cell divsion on contact, um it was used by tiger... and 2 big guys on the steelers... who returned to play in 1 week.. it heals tendonosis.. and tons of shit, its legitimately one of the biggest finds in medicin in the last 5 years,

hgh... is a signal sender... or commander that orders creation of 'workers' for healing (secretion, insulin, igf1... blood flow etc..

prp... is the builders comming to work. if you recieve a massive shot , you dont need multiple injections my vial and plunger was half the thickness of my wrist (massive). it can be shown to heal athritis (big deal) in some cases.
 
The trick is to use lemurian seed crystals incorporated with Past Life Regression to heal your shoulder.

Stay clear of conventional Western medical quackery!
 
bren565 said:
i apologize what i mean to say is, its literally the actual foundation of what causes you to heal, grow, repair,
Click to expand...

yeah thats a big fucking difference compared to what you said.

Also, tiger used a buncha hooohahs too. But I appreciate your anecdote.
 
musclemom said:
So far there is virtually no atrophy and the tears are tough to see (I only got films, so I can't post pics). It's going to get worse if I just kill the pain and work it, even in PT.

I've noticed if I rest the SHIT out of my arm i.e., basically don't lift anything heavier than a full glass with the arm and use my left whenever possible, it does start feeling a LOT better. I really believe if it could just get a little push it might heal. Maybe even causing just the local irritation of an injection into the injuries alone could wake up my immune system enough to go to work. And I honestly believe the body has a virtual infinite capacity to repair itself, as long as we don't interfere with it.
Click to expand...


yeah, i guess i can't argue with the atrophy bit too much aside from one caveat that perhaps there are imbalanced muscle groups...but tears are tears..
idk..
pt helped tremendously with my knees..and my hip...and my neck actually, though the nerve is still pinched

course now my other hip is fuct but thats beside the point

either way you go with it good luck...chronic pain blows
 
HGH ain't any cheaper than the PRP would be. How many vials of that shit at what, about a grand a pop, would I need? And it's not without some (potential) side effects (unlike PRP, which, at the worst, won't do anything but cost me some $$$) I'm sorry but an enlarged forehead or jawline won't fly on me.

All my fucking joints are going to hell, this is just the most painful, both my knees are fuk'd too, and I've had back and neck pain since I was in my teens. This is heading into "last resort" territory. Seriously. Fact is, physically it's all downhill from here ...

I'm not having anything cut unless I literally cannot move. In nearly a decade of transcription I can tell you how that flies. Surgery for soft tissue based, chronic degenerative joint conditions has an abysmal success rate (and all you medical/college people know I'm right). Anyone who tells you otherwise is full of shit. And MORE than 50% of the time you go under the knife you're still gonna be on heavy duty chronic pain medication for the rest of your life, above and beyond the fact you usually end up fuk'd in some other new and exciting way. Even joint replacement surgery usually ends up failing or eventually needing a redo. My cartilage/bones/joints are strong and healthy, it's the tendons and ligaments that are shitty and that's just the sort of shit that creates the problems doctors CAN'T fix and surgery usually only makes worse. It's like trying to sew together wet paper towels. The shit just keeps disintegrating the more you screw with it.

This shoulder isn't something I blew out last week/month/year. This has been bothering me off and on for over two years and one morning I woke up and it was a real mess. Hadn't done a damned thing the day before.

See, my real downfall started with my selection of parents - crappy genetics.

But as you guys see, there's at least ONE person who had success with it, and by the gods I'm hanging onto that hope!
 
musclemom said:
HGH ain't any cheaper than the PRP would be. How many vials of that shit at what, about a grand a pop, would I need? And it's not without some (potential) side effects (unlike PRP, which, at the worst, won't do anything but cost me some $$$) I'm sorry but an enlarged forehead or jawline won't fly on me.

All my fucking joints are going to hell, this is just the most painful, both my knees are fuk'd too, and I've had back and neck pain since I was in my teens. This is heading into "last resort" territory. Seriously. Fact is, physically it's all downhill from here ...

I'm not having anything cut unless I literally cannot move. In nearly a decade of transcription I can tell you how that flies. Surgery for soft tissue based, chronic degenerative joint conditions has an abysmal success rate (and all you medical/college people know I'm right). Anyone who tells you otherwise is full of shit. And MORE than 50% of the time you go under the knife you're still gonna be on heavy duty chronic pain medication for the rest of your life, above and beyond the fact you usually end up fuk'd in some other new and exciting way. Even joint replacement surgery usually ends up failing or eventually needing a redo. My cartilage/bones/joints are strong and healthy, it's the tendons and ligaments that are shitty and that's just the sort of shit that creates the problems doctors CAN'T fix and surgery usually only makes worse. It's like trying to sew together wet paper towels. The shit just keeps disintegrating the more you screw with it.

This shoulder isn't something I blew out last week/month/year. This has been bothering me off and on for over two years and one morning I woke up and it was a real mess. Hadn't done a damned thing the day before.

See, my real downfall started with my selection of parents - crappy genetics.

But as you guys see, there's at least ONE person who had success with it, and by the gods I'm hanging onto that hope!
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1) Acromegaly takes ridiculously high doses of HGH.

2) The way you describe your tendons and ligaments is actually a huge argument for HGH .

3) HGH alone won't repair tears themselves, but will strengthen the tissue that is left.

Probably the optimal approach would be to start HGH immediately and get surgery to repair the shoulder. The obvious problem there is it's both the highest cost and most surgically-intense solution. And I do understand why you don't want to do that.
 
mrplunkey said:
1) Acromegaly takes ridiculously high doses of HGH.

2) The way you describe your tendons and ligaments is actually a huge argument for HGH .

3) HGH alone won't repair tears themselves, but will strengthen the tissue that is left.

Probably the optimal approach would be to start HGH immediately and get surgery to repair the shoulder. The obvious problem there is it's both the highest cost and most surgically-intense solution. And I do understand why you don't want to do that.
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I suspect you're right about the HGH. The best I feel is when I'm capable of weightraining regularly, which is the only thing I've found that increases natural HGH levels. I've tried nutritional shit but I've never found any supplements that do it.

I just don't have the money for HGH (as it is the PRP is going on a credit card). There is no way on earth I can afford $1,000 or more a month. Nor do I see there ever being the possibility of approval for off label use in anti-aging. I actually probably could get it, legally, my husband's HRT doc is pretty liberal minded.

One bright note, my parents gave me every other shitty health problem they have and they both died in their 60s. At least I'm not staring at potentially 40 years of slow decay.
 
musclemom said:
I suspect you're right about the HGH. The best I feel is when I'm capable of weightraining regularly, which is the only thing I've found that increases natural HGH levels. I've tried nutritional shit but I've never found any supplements that do it.

I just don't have the money for HGH (as it is the PRP is going on a credit card). There is no way on earth I can afford $1,000 or more a month. Nor do I see there ever being the possibility of approval for off label use in anti-aging. I actually probably could get it, legally, my husband's HRT doc is pretty liberal minded.

One bright note, my parents gave me every other shitty health problem they have and they both died in their 60s. At least I'm not staring at potentially 40 years of slow decay.
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Don't look at it that way. If you know you've got a few genetic challenges, just try to balance-out the key factors including eating well (which I suspect you do), caloric restriction, stress management, vigorous exercise and good sleep.

I wouldn't take the "I'm falling apart" approach.
 
mrplunkey said:
Don't look at it that way. If you know you've got a few genetic challenges, just try to balance-out the key factors including eating well (which I suspect you do), caloric restriction, stress management, vigorous exercise and good sleep.

I wouldn't take the "I'm falling apart" approach.
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I appreciate your positive attitude, honestly, considering some of the battles we've had but the truth is, I've been in pain since my teens. However, since I hit my mid 30s things have been ramping up. The weight training used to keep things at bay but I can't do that now (the one thing I never got for my home gym was a heavy duty leg machine). And my knees are going, too, the right one actually hurt with every step the other day when I went for a walk. So that's next.

It's just very hard to not think you're falling apart when going downstairs to the kitchen or brushing your teeth hurts. Which, in turn, makes you depressed.

God it sounds so fucking pathetic.
 
musclemom said:
I appreciate your positive attitude, honestly, considering some of the battles we've had but the truth is, I've been in pain since my teens. However, since I hit my mid 30s things have been ramping up. The weight training used to keep things at bay but I can't do that now (the one thing I never got for my home gym was a heavy duty leg machine). And my knees are going, too, the right one actually hurt with every step the other day when I went for a walk. So that's next.

It's just very hard to not think you're falling apart when going downstairs to the kitchen or brushing your teeth hurts. Which, in turn, makes you depressed.

God it sounds so fucking pathetic.
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I can appreciate the falling-apart feeling. Professional stress can do that for me. I'll push through it, but it leaves me with flu-like symptoms -- it's really similar to the "test flu" side effect.

But I've discovered a really interesting tool for the highest stress times -- caloric restriction. It makes no sense, but if I've got 2-3 days of complete hell coming, I just simply shut my calories down. The first 6-8 hours are rough, but after that you run on cruise control.
 
PICK3 said:
All of my systems are quickly deteriorating, butt oddly my o-ring is still in pristine condition.

just sayin'
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It's a testament to the immense amount of exercise you give it on a daily basis.
 
Well, got the first session of PRP therapy last Wednesday. Not the most pleasant experience I've ever had, compounded by the fact I also apparently have bursitis in there so he drained that while he was at it (plus side, at least THAT can get charged to insurance).

I'm pretty pain tolerant (walking around with bursitis and two rotator cuff tears for who knows how long I can't be a complete wimp), but from Wednesday evening until Saturday morning I was in pretty much the worst pain I've ever been in my life. Tylenol didn't do shit, oxycodone just made me pass out, and I couldn't take NSAIDs which would basically defeat the purpose of the PRP.

Every day I've been recovering mobility and my shoulder no longer makes clicking when I rotate it in a full circle.

I want to thank the folks who encouraged me to consider GH. I started taking peptides nearly a month in advance of the therapy to increase my GH naturally and I think it's a good pairing with this approach.

My next session will be towards the end of June, apparently the sessions themselves get worse as you go along, joy. The recovery itself is injury dependent.
 
Try and keep a positive spirit MM! You have struck me as being a pretty tough lady! And you have lots of people here pulling for you. Myself included.
 
musclemom said:
Well, got the first session of PRP therapy last Wednesday. Not the most pleasant experience I've ever had, compounded by the fact I also apparently have bursitis in there so he drained that while he was at it (plus side, at least THAT can get charged to insurance).

I'm pretty pain tolerant (walking around with bursitis and two rotator cuff tears for who knows how long I can't be a complete wimp), but from Wednesday evening until Saturday morning I was in pretty much the worst pain I've ever been in my life. Tylenol didn't do shit, oxycodone just made me pass out, and I couldn't take NSAIDs which would basically defeat the purpose of the PRP.

Every day I've been recovering mobility and my shoulder no longer makes clicking when I rotate it in a full circle.

I want to thank the folks who encouraged me to consider GH. I started taking peptides nearly a month in advance of the therapy to increase my GH naturally and I think it's a good pairing with this approach.

My next session will be towards the end of June, apparently the sessions themselves get worse as you go along, joy. The recovery itself is injury dependent.
Click to expand...

Good luck!

Hope you get good results with that treatment.
 
I have had surgery on knees, back, wrist and elbows but the recovery from the shoulder was the worst by far. I had a cuff tear, labrum tear, bicep tendon tear and the AC joint was just screwed from years of lifting. I hope this treatment works for you. I will be waiting for your results since I face further surgeries in the future. I had a parachute collapse going into Nicarauga in '84 and have been deling with the fallout of that for many years now. Good luck.
 
I might as well keep this updated for anyone who's interested.

Got my second PRP (Platelet Rich Plasma) treatment on June 24. I have no idea what he was doing but the treatment session itself was way more painful this go-round. My husband went with me and watched the procedure -- honestly, I have to keep my eyes closed, concentrate on my breathing and try to find my happy place, I tried keeping my eyes open and watching on the monitor and it made things 1000x worse. My husband says he was sticking the needle in and just working it around into different locations. Even with novocaine it was rough, that's all I know.

On the plus side, the recovery was much easier this time, only the first night was really bad. I think I know what I did wrong and next time I'll just skip having a post treatment cocktail and go directly to the oxycodone. Doesn't do much for the pain but at least you don't give a shit.

Unfortunately, one tendon is not healing as well as hoped. There will be a third session and this time he will be doing a fat graft. If that doesn't do it, I don't know if he's going to go for a fourth.

Actually, the arm feels really good right now, still sore but certainly better than it did this far out from the last session.

And I meet my new acupuncturist on the 5th, hopefully we hit it off ... if not, she has a colleague right next door that I'll go to next.
 
nimbus said:
is this from lifting?
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No, probably impingement syndrome from chronic cervical DJD. My parents each had joint and spinal problems of several different types, I seem to have inherited everything from both of them :whatever:

I've been lifting since my late 20s and I believe that, combined with a good chiropractor and my TempurPedic mattress, has been what has kept me functional and reasonably pain free up until now. I only wish I had started peptides sooner, then I might have bypassed this problem entirely. However, if I hadn't torn my rotator cuff I never would have had the guts to try them and they've benefited me in a lot of other ways.

I'll tell you one thing, if this DOES work and I can get back to lifting I'm so totally gonna kick ass when my PT is over :evil:
 
EnderJE said:
Painful! I hope you get better! Or post nudes. Either way.
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After the last pagan festival I've come to the conclusion that I'm not a naked person and I'm okay with that, you should be, too.

Besides, everyone knows I don't post pics of myself, it's part of the mystique :qt:
 
Good luck on the PRP. I have had THREE...yes, THREE PRP procedures ! The one thing I can tell you about PRP is youhave to remember that what it is doing, is essentially healing that area and adding more scar tissue.

Muscles, tendons, ligaments, etc...they all repair from compounding scar tissue. Not like a bone that breaks and is then healed back to normal, which is why when we hear athletes break something, they are back on the field quicker than a torn ACL or MCL.

The reason why the second time hurt so much, could have been due to the lack of lidocaine injected into your area as some doctors feel the second , third and so on, treaments can be hindered with lidocaine and almost "water down," so to speak the good platelets that are used. I know, those needles suck ! They are usually 5-7' long and bendable, so they can get around the tendons and other areas they need to by pass, so even if you are a little numb, you feel every little twing and twang of the muscle, ligament or tendon hit. It sucks ! The good thing is that they find the area by using that ultra sound and can pretty much pinpoint it to where they want the blood platelets to go. Provided they also have a very good MRI to review as well.

One STRONG bit of advice. After your last PRP, lets say a month goes by and you start to feel better. Please DO NOT, thing you are healed! I had my last injection and about two months after, didnt feel the pain, slipped on the ice as mine was my knee and it twisted and I was back to square one. Make sure you get some very, very light rehab.
Hopefully they do a fat graph of some sort. I have read where some people with cartilage issues have actually had bone marrow aspiration or (BMAC) taken from their hip and then had the same type of procedure with the PRP together. They put in the bone marrow/cartilage, to the affected area and then add the PRP on top as sort of a [Miracle Grow] fertilizer of sort to help it grow. Maybe bring this up to your doctor and see what he/she suggests. Unfortunately PRP is good for minor issues but it sounds like you ripped the heck out of your shoulder, so although it may heal, it is going to take some time !
I joked with my doctor and asked if I added dome Deca would that help, he didnt hestitate to tell me, off the record, that yes, it would help.I was surpirsed to hear him tell me that and then proceeded to ask for a prescription, which he laughed at me and said, no way.
Not sure if that would work for you as Im not familiar with the affects Deca has on women but nonetheless...if you do use anything, maybe something similar may help.

Lastly, again, the only thing I can strongly tell you is please, please, please dont think that just because you feel better in three months that you are healed ! It is scar tissue and you need a lot of it to cover that type of injury. So, see what he/she has to say, ask them what kind of re-hab they suggest and give yourself a solid year to rehab that area. I know it sucks and sounds like a long time, but I am going on 5 years of Synvisc injections, PRP, surgeries, constant rehab, etc. and mainly the last three were because I pushed it to fast !
Good luck and PM me if you want any side info, as I am very familiar with PRP and other procedures.
 
Hello themacster! There is so much in your post that I've heard from my doc! You know your shit. The guy I'm seeing is considered one of the top guys in this arena, his patients travel in from everywhere. I was in his office when a patient came in from Pittsburgh (8 hour drive one way, I'm in the Phila. suburbs). I asked the front desk nurse what's the farthest someone has traveled to see him, the answer: Colorado.

I got my third injection on August 1 and did get a fat graft that round. I get my follow-up in a few weeks but you're right, this is the best it's felt so far. The one tendon is well on the way to recovery, he said it didn't need anything this session. The other tendon, the supraspinatus, got the graft and PRP combo platter.

I'm being good, I'm not using this arm -- other than the easy stuff, that he's told me I can do -- until he tells me to begin PT. I really do trust his judgement. I constantly remind myself to keep babying it. I'm even leery of stretching too hard.

Oh man, BONE MARROW!?! Holy shit, I can't imagine how that feels. The fat graft was the worst (longest/most painful) recovery yet, and he I felt some of the lipo, which was extremely uuugggh. The procedure hurt like hell, I breath through it and go to my happy place and that's all you can do, it's like giving birth. The recovery was bad, I was stoned on Tylenol #3 and Oxys at double and triple doses for a week plus. Honestly, I wish he could have sent me home with a couple of vials of lidocaine, I would have shot that shit into myself I was a hurtin' pup, but it's really improved this round.

Sometimes I wonder if it wouldn't have been better to just go under the knife, but what really spooked me with surgery is what if they fuck it up? I figured with the PRP, at least I can use my hand/arm, it can't make it worse, and even if the PRP doesn't take, all I'm out is time and money. I'm a neurology transcriptionist by trade, so I hear the horror stories of RSD and surgeries gone bad all the time, scares the hell out of me.

I'm not sure about Deca and females either, I'll have to check the women's forum, but honestly, I'm not able to do even much cardio (summer heat) and with higher BF levels, almost guaranteed bad scene. I went the peptide route to increase natural growth hormone levels. I've also been taking a supplement my doctr recommended that's supposed to naturally increase stem cells and a crap load of supercharged antioxidants.
 
1) It's nice to see you post MM. Please show-up more often.

2) I sincerely hope you get better.

3) And now, at the risk of sounding like an asshole (I've accepted it, it's my mileau), if you had had surgery around the original date of your post, wouldn't you be finishing-up rehabilitation by now?
 
mrplunkey said:
1) It's nice to see you post MM. Please show-up more often.

2) I sincerely hope you get better.

3) And now, at the risk of sounding like an asshole (I've accepted it, it's my mileau), if you had had surgery around the original date of your post, wouldn't you be finishing-up rehabilitation by now?
Click to expand...

*milieu
 
mrplunkey said:
1) It's nice to see you post MM. Please show-up more often.
Click to expand...
You're sweet, I'm not leaving, but posting volume isn't going to go up much anytime in the near future, life, work, continued need to rest the arm and other stuff I have committed to spend my time on forces me to make a choice how I spend my time :whatever:

mrplunkey said:
2) I sincerely hope you get better.
Click to expand...
Thank you, hon, I am better, seriously. You privately expressed your doubts regarding PRP but I stand by my opinion, none of the doctors tried it in combination with increased GH levels and like I said earlier, the guy I'm seeing is considered one of the top guys in this field.

mrplunkey said:
3) And now, at the risk of sounding like an asshole (I've accepted it, it's my mileau), if you had had surgery around the original date of your post, wouldn't you be finishing-up rehabilitation by now?
Click to expand...
 Under ideal circumstances, if I were 15 or 20 years younger, maybe, and that's a serious maybe. Everyone I know, and even Chris/smurf or whatever his name is now told me, shoulder rehab is not pretty. One of the big put-offs for me with shoulder surgery, particularly considering I had two tears, was the idea of my arm being in an immobilizer (my dominant arm, mind you, and I'm EXTREMELY right-handed) for anywhere from a month to six weeks and that was BEFORE rehab. Then the recovery/PT, just not pretty. And if the surgery went bad, I could be perma-fucked for life. Don't believe me, ask an ortho what the recovery from shoulder surgery is like for someone over 40, especially less than best case scenarios (and let's not even start to discuss hospital acquired infections and all that lovely disgusting shit). Look at it from my perspective, I'm self employed with absolutely no benes. All I lost was 3 weeks of work from these procedures, total.

In the final analysis, this may sound nuts to 99% of the population, but I live in my body. I have had historically horrific luck with conventional medicine. I have had weird reactions to medications that don't crop up until the meds are administered (not allergies, paradoxical reactions) and I have severe DJD in my neck that makes me genuinely terrified of being anesthetized without neurosurgical monitoring and what doctor would even consider that (never mind trying to justify it to an insurance company) for a freaking RC tear? (yes, it is so severe that being unconscious and limp with my arm outstretched for more than 15 minutes could cause nerve damage).

And finally, perhaps to me most frightening, you can also go under the knife for this sort of surgery (and remember, mine was caused by a chronic congenital condition, NOT a trauma, again, less likely positive surgical outcome) and end up with permanent nerve damage making you WAY more screwed up than you were to begin with, or leaving you with permanent, intractable pain, tingling or numbness. Frankly, I don't give a shit if the odds are 10:1, I don't need to be the 1 when A) It's my dominant arm/hand and B) The ONLY way I have of making a living relies on BOTH of my hands functioning properly and my family relies on my income, meager as it is.

As I said from the beginning, I weighed the pros and cons. I had my first procedure in May, second in late June, the most recent on August 1, it has cost me a total of $2,800 out of pocket, and I lost only three weeks worth of work and never completely lost the use of my arm (granted, I had to move it with great care and it hurt like hell, but I could use it). Currently, my arm is better than it was when I started. For me, absolutely no downside, period. The worst downside was potentially NO improvement.

As I said to you privately, maybe the orthos should have tried adding GH to the mix.

Or maybe PRP, at less than $3,000 (and I got the Cadillac procedure with the added fat graft) just isn't as profitable as charging five figures plus to an insurance company for surgery :whatever: The PRP sessions took about 30 minutes or so each (not counting drawing and spinning blood). That means my doctor made just about $31.10/minute. Not a heck of a lot (from a medical perspective). I think a surgeon's fee of $5,000 for a 90 minute procedure is probably a lowball figure, that comes out to $55.55 a minute. Exactly what incentive would the average ortho or sports medicine guy have to encourage patients to undergo a procedure that's going to lose them about $1,500 and end up with the same basic result for the patient? Sorry, I do not have that much belief in the altruism of most of humanity. Yes, there are some true healers out there who are happy to make a living and take joy in truly healing people, but the cynical bastards who are smart and basically just want to get the Ferrari and house in Boca paid off outnumber them by A LOT.

Hey, did I tell you that I went to a hospital (which was my "in plan location") to get shoulder x-rays (3 views)? The cost to my insurance company? $1,247. My chiropractor sent an uninsured patient to a local imaging place for knee x-rays, like three or four views. The cash cost to the uninsured patient? $75.

Long ramble short, my arm IS better and getting better every day, sorry to disappoint.

If it's any comfort, I believe MOST "unbiased" medical studies, aren't :whatever: Especially when the procedures/supplements/concepts go against long accepted conventional medical paradigms.
 
damners, good luck with the recovery. Mad props for posting this all up. I've never heard of PRP until now

Whiskey
 
musclemom said:
Hey, did I tell you that I went to a hospital (which was my "in plan location") to get shoulder x-rays (3 views)? The cost to my insurance company? $1,247. My chiropractor sent an uninsured patient to a local imaging place for knee x-rays, like three or four views. The cash cost to the uninsured patient? $75.
Click to expand...

That always, always, always happens when the consumer of health care and the payer of health care are the same person. My favorite benchmark procedure is breast augmentation versus hip replacement:

1) Breast augmentation:

A) Red carpet treatment before and after procedure
B) Immaculate pain control
C) Roughly 1.5 procedure (mostly suturing)
D) Two high-liability implants
Total cost: $3,000-$4,000

2) Hip replacement:

A) Sit in waiting rooms like cattle in the stockyard
B) Who knows what pain/rehab you'll get -- it varies
C) Roughly 45 minute procedure (unless you're fat or waited too long)
D) One high-liability implant
Total cost: $45,000-$55,000

Go figure. What's the difference? People pay out of pocket for boobs and Uncle Sam pays for the vast majority of hips.

We could just voucher Medicare at $0.50 on the dollar and by making people spend "their" money, probably have a good 20% left over.
 
Well, just had my follow up. Had my last PRP on August 1. For those of you not keeping up, it wasn't straight PRP, it was PRP + fat graft. And for those who feel like keeping tally, August 1 made my third session: First one cost $800, second $900 and third $1,100 (all out of pocket). The first session and the fat graft session both left my arm extremely painful for about 9 days (I was never completely unable to use the arm, but using it hurt so badly that even slight movements meant actually breathing through the motion and doing everything at about 1/4 speed).

So, I started with 2 separate tendon tears, one bad, one very bad, neither total, no atrophy. I'm now 2/3 healed (one is 100%). All I have left is some gaps in the worst torn tendon. I could go into PT now if I wanted. I've decided to pass and will have one more PRP session. Doc and I have agreed that it's functional but if I really want to go back into weight training then filling in the couple of remaining gaps would alleviate any concerns over future tears. He put me through my paces (orthopedic tests). BTW, tests I couldn't perform AT ALL before my first treatment I can now do with, at worst, a twinge of discomfort.

So, PRP vs. surgery: PRP has taken longer and probably cost more out of pocket, however, I never completely lost the use of my arm (surgery would definitely have put it in an immobilizer for 4 weeks, minimum, with my tears) and I was never under general anesthesia which carries a whole other set of risks.

PRP all the way IMO, however, I have a historically bad track record with conventional medicine (with good reason). In addition, bear in mind I took various dietary supplements to help the healing process (antioxidants, stem cell accelerators) boosted my growth hormone levels with the use of peptides, and while I did not have my arm in an immobilizer, I drastically cut back my use of it and despite 2/3 improvement, weight training is NOT on the immediate horizon. One more PRP (might be PRP + graft), 6+ weeks recovery then P/T so I probably ain't pulling iron before 2012.

PRP works, but like everything else alternative, it takes longer and costs more. Upside, when it's done, it's fixed, and your body did the fixing. And even if it doesn't work, barring failure on the part of the physician you probably won't be worse off than you were to begin with (no guarantees, but have you ever actually read the preoperative disclosure statements? I have, because I've typed them).

But it's worked/working (one more assessment/treatment on 10/21), I'm very happy with the current results :whatever: Arm works better than it has in 11 months, I'm good with it.
 
mrplunkey said:
That always, always, always happens when the consumer of health care and the payer of health care are the same person. My favorite benchmark procedure is breast augmentation versus hip replacement:

1) Breast augmentation:

A) Red carpet treatment before and after procedure
B) Immaculate pain control
C) Roughly 1.5 procedure (mostly suturing)
D) Two high-liability implants
Total cost: $3,000-$4,000

2) Hip replacement:

A) Sit in waiting rooms like cattle in the stockyard
B) Who knows what pain/rehab you'll get -- it varies
C) Roughly 45 minute procedure (unless you're fat or waited too long)
D) One high-liability implant
Total cost: $45,000-$55,000

Go figure. What's the difference? People pay out of pocket for boobs and Uncle Sam pays for the vast majority of hips.

We could just voucher Medicare at $0.50 on the dollar and by making people spend "their" money, probably have a good 20% left over.
Click to expand...



wtf kinda titty jobs are bitches getting for $3,000? My wifes was $7500
 
Well, yesterday I had my fourth PRP session. At my follow-up last month the supraspinatus tendon was healing but not fully, it was still thin and potentially fragile. The doctor and I decided to give it one more month, take another ultrasound look see and decided from there (it takes about 100 days for maximum medical improvement and I'd had my last session on Aug. 1, which was only about six weeks).

In the meantime, my left shoulder had started bothering me about two/three weeks ago. At first I thought I slept on it funny, but it didn't go away. It was having a catching feeling. I now know the difference between a tendon problem and a muscle problem and it felt like it was going the same route as the right one had when it first started bothering me.

So after taking another look yesterday, since I really want to get back to weight training, doc and I decided to go fat graft on the right tendon (BTW, lipo, even minor lipo, when you're conscious is quite a treat, let me tell you). He put my left arm under the ultrasound and sure enough, it's got the beginnings of a tiny tear, so it got treated too. I had to sort of beg him because it would have meant both arms hurt like a motherfucker.

Turns out the right one is pretty good this morning, so I'm thinking that means I've maxed on the PRP for it. LEFTY hurts like a bitch, which is to be expected. The only thing that really sucks is I can't sleep on either side for a while, and I'm normally a side sleeper.

Between the fat harvest, and the injections into both shoulders I kind of think I slightly overdid it this time, I'm feeling particularly shitty on a whole other level (problems with sweats and chills, of all things). I also slept like utter shit last night (because I couldn't roll to my side). I can tell the coming week promises to be a bit of a treat.
 
musclemom said:
Well, yesterday I had my fourth PRP session. At my follow-up last month the supraspinatus tendon was healing but not fully, it was still thin and potentially fragile. The doctor and I decided to give it one more month, take another ultrasound look see and decided from there (it takes about 100 days for maximum medical improvement and I'd had my last session on Aug. 1, which was only about six weeks).

In the meantime, my left shoulder had started bothering me about two/three weeks ago. At first I thought I slept on it funny, but it didn't go away. It was having a catching feeling. I now know the difference between a tendon problem and a muscle problem and it felt like it was going the same route as the right one had when it first started bothering me.

So after taking another look yesterday, since I really want to get back to weight training, doc and I decided to go fat graft on the right tendon (BTW, lipo, even minor lipo, when you're conscious is quite a treat, let me tell you). He put my left arm under the ultrasound and sure enough, it's got the beginnings of a tiny tear, so it got treated too. I had to sort of beg him because it would have meant both arms hurt like a motherfucker.

Turns out the right one is pretty good this morning, so I'm thinking that means I've maxed on the PRP for it. LEFTY hurts like a bitch, which is to be expected. The only thing that really sucks is I can't sleep on either side for a while, and I'm normally a side sleeper.

Between the fat harvest, and the injections into both shoulders I kind of think I slightly overdid it this time, I'm feeling particularly shitty on a whole other level (problems with sweats and chills, of all things). I also slept like utter shit last night (because I couldn't roll to my side). I can tell the coming week promises to be a bit of a treat.
Click to expand...

Im sorry, your not healing as well as we you had hoped however it appears that your Dr. is very competent and I hope you heal very quickly.. with no pain!!!:)
 
First, sorry to hear that you got that news...

I can personally recommend prolotherapy, and it hurts when they do it, but it really does a miracle on healing that kind of damage. Probably the 70% figure is about right, but what if they're saying 70% chance it will cure it 100%, but maybe a 98 % chance it will radically improve it? Not sure, but I know it worked for my torn labrum and related pulls as a result of the shoulder nearly dislocating every time I'd reach to get something down from a high shelf. I had mine done in 3 sessions (once every 6 weeks), and it was about $500 each session (30 injections each, appx).

I'm not promising it will help you, but I'm saying that I'm at least one example of where it did work.

Also, HGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And go for the max dose for at least 3 months, if you can afford somehow. It's worth it.

Charles
 
Only post y'all are getting. Recovery is tough this time. PRP two shoulders, fat graft one shoulder, fat harvest from my tummy. I had surgery, but I'm not bandaged, barely bruised and can use both arms (lefty gingerly) but if I'm upright for too long I feel really, really shitty (mainly cold sweats). I'm also fucking BORED, BORED, BORED OUT OF MY FUCKING SKULL!!! Can't concentrate to read (or hold a book anyway), can't talk on the phone, can't really use the computer and now the oxys are screwing with my stomach so I'm stone cold sober, jesus this sucks.

Charles, PRP is actually a step ABOVE prolo. Think of prolo = Cadillac, PRP = Mercedes Benz, PRP + Fat Graft = Rolls Royce. I'm getting the Rolls Royce of treatments.

I'm not doing HGH but I have been on growth hormone stimulating peptides since a month before the first procedure (CJC/Ipa/GHRP-2) as well as stem cell boosting supplements (among other shit). I'm a walking talking fucking pincushion.
 
musclemom said:
Only post y'all are getting. Recovery is tough this time. PRP two shoulders, fat graft one shoulder, fat harvest from my tummy. I had surgery, but I'm not bandaged, barely bruised and can use both arms (lefty gingerly) but if I'm upright for too long I feel really, really shitty (mainly cold sweats). I'm also fucking BORED, BORED, BORED OUT OF MY FUCKING SKULL!!! Can't concentrate to read (or hold a book anyway), can't talk on the phone, can't really use the computer and now the oxys are screwing with my stomach so I'm stone cold sober, jesus this sucks.

Charles, PRP is actually a step ABOVE prolo. Think of prolo = Cadillac, PRP = Mercedes Benz, PRP + Fat Graft = Rolls Royce. I'm getting the Rolls Royce of treatments.

I'm not doing HGH but I have been on growth hormone stimulating peptides since a month before the first procedure (CJC/Ipa/GHRP-2) as well as stem cell boosting supplements (among other shit). I'm a walking talking fucking pincushion.
Click to expand...

I hope you have a speedy recovery. Now theres no excuse for you not to post on EF. lol
 
Arabian said:
I hope you have a speedy recovery. Now theres no excuse for you not to post on EF. lol
Click to expand...
It doesn't work that way. Using my hands, particularly for typing, irritates my shoulders. Even sitting in a chair for any length of time makes me feel crappy, cold sweats and wishy washy. I was actually worried about infection but my temp is dead normal.

I had to check my email but I'm crawling back in bed in a few moments. I don't have a laptop and like I said, typing just irritates things.

Seriously, recovery can't be speedy enough.
 
musclemom said:
It doesn't work that way. Using my hands, particularly for typing, irritates my shoulders. Even sitting in a chair for any length of time makes me feel crappy, cold sweats and wishy washy. I was actually worried about infection but my temp is dead normal.

I had to check my email but I'm crawling back in bed in a few moments. I don't have a laptop and like I said, typing just irritates things.

Seriously, recovery can't be speedy enough.
Click to expand...
you need these so you just have to move ur fingers and not the whole hand :D

http://www.nailpassion.com/famousf/mareen/wnmareen.jpg
 
musclemom said:
It doesn't work that way. Using my hands, particularly for typing, irritates my shoulders. Even sitting in a chair for any length of time makes me feel crappy, cold sweats and wishy washy. I was actually worried about infection but my temp is dead normal.

I had to check my email but I'm crawling back in bed in a few moments. I don't have a laptop and like I said, typing just irritates things.

Seriously, recovery can't be speedy enough.
Click to expand...

remember that little pissing contest we had about whose life sucks hardest?

you win!
 
Just an update on my PRP sessions.

Got session #4 on Friday, Jan. 27. HURT LIKE A MOFO! Had both shoulders done. Doctor and I agree that this is probably the last session. The tear in in the left is small, biggest problem there is actually the bursitis. There's just some additional healing that can be done with the worst tear in the right shoulder. Comparing old ultrasounds to current there has been an enormous amount of healing, even an idiot like me can see it.

Doctor used a new PRP centrifuge machine that is even more effective at spinning the blood, apparently I was one of the first patients to get a treatment using the new machine. Instead of the usual reddish stuff he literally was injecting pure plasma into me, it was just sort of yellowish. He told me this would result in significantly reduced inflammation and he was absolutely right, my shoulders only hurt extremely about 24 hours, I didn't take any pain killers at all.

He's actually impressed with how well my tendons have done considering the degree of damage to the one tendon. The PRP triggered the healing, how much of the healing has been encouraged/enhanced by supplements I'm taking, including growth hormone inducing peptides since April, stem cell accelerators and collagen supplements, I don't know, plus I've rested the SHIT out of my arms during this process, no exercise, NONE. I won't lift anything heavier than a gallon of milk or so, I want to give these tendons every possible opportunity to heal.

However, I am forced to wonder if I won't always have pain. I may have full function and much of my strength may return with PT and exercise, but I'm also developing joint pains that are weather related and it seems bursitis is moving into most of my joints. I have a follow up in March and the doc will be drawing blood to see if I have some sort of inflammatory condition affecting my joints.

One final note, since I started PRP back in May 2011 I've run into 5 people who have had rotator cuff surgery. Three were very happy with their results, two were not happy and one of them was actually worse off than when she had the surgery. They all agreed the recovery from surgery was horrible. I really think I made the right decision for treatment and am grateful I had a good doctor to implement the process.
 
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