Once a week frequency? Why?

[louden_swain]

pwr_machine,

I have browsed through Rebecca's website and the periodization training cycles look great!

My question is, how did you come up with 75-78 percent for the first two weeks on the training cycle?

To me, that seems a little heavy.

In older periodization programs, I have seen 13 week cycles:

phase 1 - 4 weeks - 5 x 10 @ 60-70 percent of max (hypertrophy - light weights)
phase 2 - 4 weeks - 5 x 5 @ 82-85 percent of max (strength and power heavier weights)
phase 3 - 3 weeks - 5 x 3 @ 85-93 percent of max (peaking - low reps, heavy weights)
phase 4 - 1-2 weeks active rest (no lifting)

What are your thoughts on this type of training cycle? This is an older version that a strength coach from the University of Texas used for his athletes during the early to mid-1980s.

 

[Debaser]

I kind of flew off the handle there, because latinus made some pretty idiotic comments. If he's satisfied with how fast he's growing, then he has no reason to change. I wish he would understand that hundreds of people have/are making the best gains of their life on this program. "handful of others," lol.

By the way, if 1 set to failure hampers my recovery so much, how is it that you still can only train once a week while I train twice as often?

 

[needsize]

Why is it that the DC training approach can not be discussed by its supporters, without trashing every other approach out there? I think there is a place in anyones training arsenal for any logical approach, its all part of periodization, but the attitude that the DC supports have pisses me off to no end.

Myself, I have 12 years of serious training behind me. Thats everything from a nationally ranked track athlete, powerlifter and now a competitive bodybuilder. In those years, I have tried every approach that I have ever found information on, including variations that I made up myself. This also includes the low volume, high intensity approaches (DC didnt invent them, the idea has been around since the 70s). I found that the one set to failure approaches did not result in the same gains that some of the other approaches did. And before I get a patronizing response to that, I know all about nutrition and that was not the problem, the training did not work as well towards accomplishing my goals as other approaches did.

Also, I trained for years with one of the strongest men on the country, as well as many nationals competitors(bodybuilding). The powerlifter followed a pretty high volume approach, but yet has world class lifts that I doubt anyone around here could come close to. But yet he is not training efficiently, thats nuts!!!

The part that makes me laugh is that the loudest supporters of the DC approach, the ones with the biggest attitudes, have very little training experience.

 

[pwr_machine]

pwr_machine,

I have browsed through Rebecca's website and the periodization training cycles look great!

My question is, how did you come up with 75-78 percent for the first two weeks on the training cycle?

To me, that seems a little heavy.

In older periodization programs, I have seen 13 week cycles:

phase 1 - 4 weeks - 5 x 10 @ 60-70 percent of max (hypertrophy - light weights)
phase 2 - 4 weeks - 5 x 5 @ 82-85 percent of max (strength and power heavier weights)
phase 3 - 3 weeks - 5 x 3 @ 85-93 percent of max (peaking - low reps, heavy weights)
phase 4 - 1-2 weeks active rest (no lifting)

What are your thoughts on this type of training cycle? This is an older version that a strength coach from the University of Texas used for his athletes during the early to mid-1980s.

First and foremost, those percentages were chosen from EXPERIENCE. Her training cycles continue to evolve each time she competes. That's part of the beauty of periodization.

In regards to older periodization programs, many of those started at lighter percentages in order to establish a good base of strength for not only muscles, but tendons and ligaments. In Bigguns15's case, she's pretty well conditioned from previous training cycles. Nonetheless, we still back off at least once per year for lighter percentages and follow an older style program that could be compared to the "Beginnner Training Cycle" found on her website.

 

[Debaser]

I'm sorry but your post is extremely off base needsize. If you got the impression that this post was started to trash other routines, then you obviously didn't read it correctly. I am amused by how the rest of us were having an intelligent discussion, then latinus comes in trashing DC training and then you come in saying "ALL DC TRAINEES DO IS BASH OTHERS."

You disregarded the post before you even read it. Here's the proof right here:

This also includes the low volume, high intensity approaches (DC didnt invent them, the idea has been around since the 70s). I found that the one set to failure approaches did not result in the same gains that some of the other approaches did.

You obviously do not even understand the program. The CENTRAL IDEA IS FREQUENCY. Did you even look at the title of the post? It's NOT H.I.T. (once a week or less). In a way this post is anti-H.I.T. It's like talking to a wall. I know after this post you'll STILL think that I'm bashing your routine, and that DC training is ineffective.

 

[needsize]

I did take the time to read this thread from beginning to end, and you guys did trash any other routine other than the one you preach. Maybe it didnt start off that way, but it ended up that way, same as every other post I;ve ever read about DC. I understand that DC is about frequency, but that doesnt change the fact that you guys consistently bad mouth any routine other than yours.

I have said before thta DC is an effective routine. But that does not mean that it is better than all the other ones out there, and I'm sick of reading the dogma you guys are constantly pushing around here.

I've always said the proof is in the pudding. I have average genetics at best, but yet have managed to add 100lbs to my frame over the years. And almost all of that has come from the routine you guys claim are not effective. Or B Fold, I believe he has gained around 150lbs since he started training, following a completely different appraoch, yet his opinion isnt valid because he hasnt run the exact DC program.....

 

[louden_swain]

Folks. . . there are a number of good points raised.

I think we all need to settle down and share ideas rather than letting our testosterone get the best of us. Seems like we are all starting to fight eachother.

The fact of the matter is, that there are a number of effective training programs out there.

The key, is to find one that works best for our bodies.

We all have different goals (bodybuilding, powerlifting, strongman, casual trainer, beachboy, or whatever).

I must say this. . . .since I have started posting here at EF. . .I have learned a lot of good information from all posters regardless of my extensive experience in training.

I must confess, in the past I was reluctant to trying anything new. . .finally I decided to open up and learn about different training methods. I thank you guys for this.

From this point on, I will be coachable and always willing to try something new.

 

[louden_swain]

Hopefully we can all reach an agreement at the buffet.

 

[Debaser]

I did take the time to read this thread from beginning to end, and you guys did trash any other routine other than the one you preach. Maybe it didnt start off that way, but it ended up that way, same as every other post I;ve ever read about DC. I understand that DC is about frequency, but that doesnt change the fact that you guys consistently bad mouth any routine other than yours.

I have said before thta DC is an effective routine. But that does not mean that it is better than all the other ones out there, and I'm sick of reading the dogma you guys are constantly pushing around here.

I've always said the proof is in the pudding. I have average genetics at best, but yet have managed to add 100lbs to my frame over the years. And almost all of that has come from the routine you guys claim are not effective. Or B Fold, I believe he has gained around 150lbs since he started training, following a completely different appraoch, yet his opinion isnt valid because he hasnt run the exact DC program.....

I guess you don't understand the difference between simple disagreement, and "bashing" or "bad-mouthing." I didn't say your routine was ineffective, I just said that I believe (based on logic, science, and personal experiences) that DC training will make you grow FASTER. You're so close-minded that you can't even fathom another routine being more effective than your own.

Okay then, the proof IS in the pudding. DC added 100 lbs to himself NATURALLY. Then another 60+ lbs after that, he's at least 300 lbs now. He's gotten guys into the superheavyweight classes, and has helped many bodybuilders add more than 30 lbs of muscle after they thought they had tapped out. The success of his trainees speak volumes for his routine.

 

[sk*]

I guess you don't understand the difference between simple disagreement, and "bashing" or "bad-mouthing." I didn't say your routine was ineffective, I just said that I believe (based on logic, science, and personal experiences) that DC training will make you grow FASTER. You're so close-minded that you can't even fathom another routine being more effective than your own.

Okay then, the proof IS in the pudding. DC added 100 lbs to himself NATURALLY. Then another 60+ lbs after that, he's at least 300 lbs now. He's gotten guys into the superheavyweight classes, and has helped many bodybuilders add more than 30 lbs of muscle after they thought they had tapped out. The success of his trainees speak volumes for his routine.

Dude, don't you get it???

You have been lifting for one year, every fucking routine works for you.

Hell, I love DC's methods, I just hate your attidute.

-sk

 

[pwr_machine]

Dude, don't you get it???

You have been lifting for one year, every fucking routine works for you.

That's a valid point to any theory of training. Beginners will make huge gains on any program.

 

[casualbb]

Although I don't condone his wording, I'm gonna throw in with latimus on this one. Provided you don't have to mess with your training frequency, more volume does equal more gains.

When you lift, weight gets transferred to the muscles, stuff happens, and then growth is caused. The more you can do this during one bout the more growth will be caused. But training less frequently in order handle more volume is counterproductive if your goal is muscle growth.

This doesn't have to be incompatible with DC training! DC would work just as well with 2-3 lower intensity sets as long as you could keep the strength gains going. Just acknowledge that the one intense set is ONE WAY TO DO IT, and although it may work very well it's not the only way.

 

[pwr_machine]

You use DC as an example of how much can be gained, how much have you gained over your many years of training bro, especially with the DC approach, and lets see the pics to prove it!

 

[needsize]

you calling me close minded is one of the funniest, and most ignorant things I've read in this forum, and that says a lot. Did you miss the part where I said I've tried every training approach that I could find any info on over the years, so I know what works and doesnt work for me. You use DC as an example of how much can be gained, how much have you gained over your many years of training bro, especially with the DC approach, and lets see the pics to prove it!

I have no problem with a good debate, but thats not what I see on these threads. I see a bunch of back patting about how you guys without a doubt, are on the most effective routine ever, and if the rest of us want to grow as fast as you then we should jump on the bandwagon. And if anyone comes on one of the threads and has the nerve to disagree, they get flamed.

There are all kinds of effective training approaches out there, Ive used many of them with great success. But to make a blanket statement that one is the MOST effective, and nothing else will make you grow that fast, with nothing but anecdotal evidence to prove it, thats crap!!

 

[sk*]

That's a valid point to any theory of training. Beginners will make huge gains on any program.

Yes, that's what I ment. He will make great gains even if he squated and benched every day at high volume.

I just started my friend in working out, and he doesn't listen to me. He goes in the gym a few times a day and does whatever he wants. He grows like a weed.

-sk

 

[bigguns15]

pwr_machine,

I have browsed through Rebecca's website and the periodization training cycles look great!

My question is, how did you come up with 75-78 percent for the first two weeks on the training cycle?

They are really arbitrary percentages that we have tailored to me through trial and error over the years. I now start my cycles at 8 reps. The sets of 10 are more for conditioning and building your initial strength base. I feel like already have this base established so I can start a little heavier. However, since I am doing less reps, my percentages can be higher. Usually, I can do that amount of weight for more than 8 reps and I feel like it is too light. I have found that I need to hold myself back a little in the beginning. If I had no percentages, I would be going balls to the wall every workout and end up overtraining or peaking too early.

 

[Debaser]

you calling me close minded is one of the funniest, and most ignorant things I've read in this forum, and that says a lot. Did you miss the part where I said I've tried every training approach that I could find any info on over the years, so I know what works and doesnt work for me. You use DC as an example of how much can be gained, how much have you gained over your many years of training bro, especially with the DC approach, and lets see the pics to prove it!

I have no problem with a good debate, but thats not what I see on these threads. I see a bunch of back patting about how you guys without a doubt, are on the most effective routine ever, and if the rest of us want to grow as fast as you then we should jump on the bandwagon. And if anyone comes on one of the threads and has the nerve to disagree, they get flamed.

There are all kinds of effective training approaches out there, Ive used many of them with great success. But to make a blanket statement that one is the MOST effective, and nothing else will make you grow that fast, with nothing but anecdotal evidence to prove it, thats crap!!

1. Maybe you missed the part where I advocated HST as well as DC.

2. You have not tried either of these programs. You said you "tried everything," but it doesn't sound like you've tried anything even remotely resembling these routines.

3. If anyone that has the nerve to disagree gets flamed, then point out where I flamed someone on this thread, besides laticus (who threw the first stone).

4. You are missing the point yet again. I'm not saying that one routine is the most effective, but the concept of frequency is the key to gaining quickly. DC and HST are 2 routines that take advantage of this fact. Assuming you're not overtraining, if you can train a bodypart more often, that part will grow more often. There are numerous scientific studies supporting this (hell, HST has more science backing it than any other routine, so why do you insist that it's all "anecdotal"?), not to mention it's simple fucking logic to boot.

 

[b fold the truth]

Anyone care to stop the pissing contest? lol...I'll try. If people want to piss for distance...I highly doubt that you are going to find anyone who can match me body for body, strength for strength, body weight for body weight, and agility for agility... To add to that...I don't train DC, HST, Weider Principles, OL, or strict WSB. I take a little of everything (MOSTLY WSB) and make it my own.

One of the big KEYS to progressive strength training (what we all do) is finding the right combination between intensity and volume. You can't have 100 percent intensity with 100 percent volume. You also can't have 10 percent intensity with 10 percent volume and expect the best gains. Finding it somewhere in the middle is the key. Sure, it varies a bit, but there IS a standard somewhere.

DC training takes it to an extreme of the variation. A trainee uses 100 percent intensity with 10 percent volume (or so, hopefully you get the point). It is an extreme of a theory... It has been put into place for many and I have used training principles VERY similar to them over the years with very limited success. The gains would be good for 3-4 weeks maximum then they would stall or actually work towards the negative.

There is a reason why people 'increase the volume' in their workouts. Simply, because it works. You can't increase the volume to an extreme amount (obviously, and people are taking it to the extreme...especially for 'arguments' sake...) but it does make a difference.

When a strength contest comes nearer...one starts to bring up the volume on their hams, erectors, glutes, triceps, abs, rotators, lats, etc... Of course...the last week they use ZERO volume to let their body recover and be completely ready for the contest.

One of the biggest problems with the DC method is that the volume is so low that the amount of weight lifted is VERY low (yes, it DOES make a big difference in muscular growth, recruitmen, and strength gains). When powerlifters start to go from doing 6 sets of 8 to tapering down (over 10-14 weeks) to doing 2 sets of 2 or even singles....the amount of weight or volume per workout is so low that they actually start to digress in their strength even though they are pushing heavier weights.

The second major problem I see with the DC program is that if you have an issue with form on a certain exercise...you only get basically ONE set to fix it per week. You also have one balls to the wall set that you can really screw yourself with (serious injury). A beginner has NO BUSINESS doing this type of routine simply for that reason. A beginner would greatly benefit from doing one of Cornholio's routine where you are performing the big lifts on a bi/tri-weekly basis and you have a lot of opportunity to perfect the lifts.

Debasser, please refrain from EVER saying that DC will produce the FASTEST results or that it is the BEST....EVER again!!! That kind of statement has no business here. Trust me...I know. I got into it with Cornholio over a year ago and it nearly ruined the relationship between the two of us (he is one of the nicest persons you can ever meet). We both made remarks to each other similar to these, it got personal, and he left for a long time. Do NOT run anyone off with your attitude!!!

B True

 

[IronLion]

is this thread still going?

 

[Debaser]

1. If the total weight lifted makes such a big difference in muscular growth and strength, then why am I (and SO MANY OTHERS) making such huge, fast gains in both size and strength? I only wish you participated in animal's board when the original thread was posted, there were lots of naturals who were gaining so fast that others thought they were on gear. I put on 40 lbs of muscle this year, and that's with wasted months of improper focus/diet/training.

2. We're not talking about beginners here. I'm not sure how this came about. A beginner should learn proper form before doing ANY routine.

3.

Debasser, please refrain from EVER saying that DC will produce the FASTEST results or that it is the BEST....EVER again!!!

See #4 on my reply to needsize.

 

[b fold the truth]

1. If the total weight lifted makes such a big difference in muscular growth and strength, then why am I (and SO MANY OTHERS) making such huge, fast gains in both size and strength? I only wish you participated in animal's board when the original thread was posted, there were lots of naturals who were gaining so fast that others thought they were on gear. I put on 40 lbs of muscle this year, and that's with wasted months of improper focus/diet/training.

2. We're not talking about beginners here. I'm not sure how this came about. A beginner should learn proper form before doing ANY routine.

3.

See #4 on my reply to needsize.

I'm not sure if I have anything else to say to you again. You either did not read my post or you could not understand it. You should...a lot.

In the same post where you say that you are not talking about beginners...you also include yourself when you talk about how you have gained so much on this...lol. How long have you been training again?

Go back and read my post...a few times.

I saw your #4 post to Needsize and I do believe I see where you said that the DC routine would provide the FASTEST gains in another post prior to that one.

Change your attitude...or leave (haven't I told you this before????)

B True

 

[IronLion]

I put on 40 lbs of muscle this year, and that's with wasted months of improper focus/diet/training.

You put on 40 pounds of muscle all natural after years of training? Ok that is horseshit....sorry but it is....and just for the record if you are going to talk nonstop about the effectiveness of a routine shouldn't you have some kind of stats? You must be what 275 pounds? 300? You can press double bodyweight right? Squat triple? I mean there are a lot of people who have used volume training and all sorts of other methods to achieve those type of stats.....

 

[Debaser]

I've trained for a little over a year now. B fold that is insulting, quite frankly. My form is nearly flawless. You say it's impossible ironlion? Go here.

I do believe I see where you said that the DC routine would provide the FASTEST gains in another post prior to that one.

Really? Because I don't.

Change your attitude...or leave (haven't I told you this before????)

Utter bullshit. Biased too. Laterninus started stirring up shit on my thread, and needsize fueled it with arrogant, misinformed comments. DC rarely comes here anymore because of that crap. He also had this to say:

Of all the boards I read, this is the only one I can say after almost 2 years now of my methods that people still come on here and say "it will only work for a little bit of time"-"it wont work"-etc etc etc. Please let me know when it will stop working as I would like to prepare ahead of time (thanks)--Im not trying to toot my own horn here but how many guys have to say "my strength is going up by leaps and bounds" "i gained 25lbs in 3 months" --post their before and after pictures (theirs four guys alone on muscle mayhem) before people will start getting the clue that it is working and working for almost every single person trying it. But this is pretty much the only board where I see that kind of response. Do I want someone to follow my methods blindly or not question why something is done? No I want you to make an educated decision. But to say something "wont work" when youve never tried it and disregarding the masses who are saying it does work makes the poster look like an idiot. Hearing things like Guldakat having 1 inch more on his arms and other testimonials make me happy as hell--thats basically why I came to the point of typing out my methods--I like to help people who might be kind of stuck in a rut. I truly dont want my methods to become the norm--I want it to be exclusive--an exclusive club of people who said "fuck off" to the normal TREND of thought that the brainwashed masses follow pertaining to training for the last 30 years and decided to try something new. The very same routines the last 30 years that only the genetically elite seem to have great gains with. I want this because i want the distinct differerence between "them" and "DC"---I want that guy who has been lifting at Guldakats gym for a long time to wonder what the hell Guldakat is doing because that guy has been following the Flex magazine routines for years and still looks the same as he did 4 years ago while Guld has changed pretty dramatically over the last 5 months. Id like DC to be known as the "dirty little secret" that people who never read bodybuilding boards --will never know about.

 

[IronLion]

I've trained for a little over a year now. B fold that is insulting, quite frankly. My form is nearly flawless. You say it's impossible ironlion? Go here.

Hey, let me know when you have been training for 4 years and are still making great gains on the strict DC program.

BTW some of us have goals other than pure aesthetics, and I can flat out say that DC's program is a piss poor program for a performance athlete. So remember that when you are trying to beat it's merit into us......

 

[sk*]

Anyone care to stop the pissing contest? lol...I'll try. If people want to piss for distance...I highly doubt that you are going to find anyone who can match me body for body, strength for strength, body weight for body weight, and agility for agility... To add to that...I don't train DC, HST, Weider Principles, OL, or strict WSB. I take a little of everything (MOSTLY WSB) and make it my own.

One of the big KEYS to progressive strength training (what we all do) is finding the right combination between intensity and volume. You can't have 100 percent intensity with 100 percent volume. You also can't have 10 percent intensity with 10 percent volume and expect the best gains. Finding it somewhere in the middle is the key. Sure, it varies a bit, but there IS a standard somewhere.

DC training takes it to an extreme of the variation. A trainee uses 100 percent intensity with 10 percent volume (or so, hopefully you get the point). It is an extreme of a theory... It has been put into place for many and I have used training principles VERY similar to them over the years with very limited success. The gains would be good for 3-4 weeks maximum then they would stall or actually work towards the negative.

There is a reason why people 'increase the volume' in their workouts. Simply, because it works. You can't increase the volume to an extreme amount (obviously, and people are taking it to the extreme...especially for 'arguments' sake...) but it does make a difference.

When a strength contest comes nearer...one starts to bring up the volume on their hams, erectors, glutes, triceps, abs, rotators, lats, etc... Of course...the last week they use ZERO volume to let their body recover and be completely ready for the contest.

One of the biggest problems with the DC method is that the volume is so low that the amount of weight lifted is VERY low (yes, it DOES make a big difference in muscular growth, recruitmen, and strength gains). When powerlifters start to go from doing 6 sets of 8 to tapering down (over 10-14 weeks) to doing 2 sets of 2 or even singles....the amount of weight or volume per workout is so low that they actually start to digress in their strength even though they are pushing heavier weights.

The second major problem I see with the DC program is that if you have an issue with form on a certain exercise...you only get basically ONE set to fix it per week. You also have one balls to the wall set that you can really screw yourself with (serious injury). A beginner has NO BUSINESS doing this type of routine simply for that reason. A beginner would greatly benefit from doing one of Cornholio's routine where you are performing the big lifts on a bi/tri-weekly basis and you have a lot of opportunity to perfect the lifts.

Debasser, please refrain from EVER saying that DC will produce the FASTEST results or that it is the BEST....EVER again!!! That kind of statement has no business here. Trust me...I know. I got into it with Cornholio over a year ago and it nearly ruined the relationship between the two of us (he is one of the nicest persons you can ever meet). We both made remarks to each other similar to these, it got personal, and he left for a long time. Do NOT run anyone off with your attitude!!!

B True

Good post bfold.

In DC's defense though, you only go "balls to wall" for 4weeks and take it easy for 2weeks.

The program works, that's for sure, but you can't just say it's the best as that is ignorant.

Simply for strength gains, volume works much better for me.

-sk

 

[pwr_machine]

Anyone care to stop the pissing contest? lol...I'll try. If people want to piss for distance...I highly doubt that you are going to find anyone who can match me body for body, strength for strength, body weight for body weight, and agility for agility... To add to that...I don't train DC, HST, Weider Principles, OL, or strict WSB. I take a little of everything (MOSTLY WSB) and make it my own.

I've got just the person that will take the challenge. You up for it? I think she'll give you a run for your money. j/k Actually, I bet the two of you share very similiar training principles.

 

[Debaser]

Hey, let me know when you have been training for 4 years and are still making great gains on the strict DC program.

BTW some of us have goals other than pure aesthetics, and I can flat out say that DC's program is a piss poor program for a performance athlete. So remember that when you are trying to beat it's merit into us......

Everyone else has, I don't see how I would be any different. Like DC said, please let him know when it'll stop working so he can prepare in advance.

And this thread is about hypertrophy. I never claimed anything else. Though your strength will go up a lot as well (hell that's how DC works). The stronger you get the bigger you get, and there are definately monsters that do DC training (that are both huge and brutally strong).

 

[needsize]

Debaser, i cant believe you call my comments arrogant. I did not, at any point put down any training system or say that one was better or more effective than another. But you continually do that, about pretty much any approach that isnt DC. Thats arrogance, which is compounded by the fact that you've been training for only a year, but yet you come here and preach. Thats a newbie bro, and a newbie should be able to make great gains on ANY of the training systems listed in this forum.

The funny thing is that we have a great forum here where flames pretty much never happen. But every thread I've ever seen you post on has turned into a flame fest. Why is that??? Because your attitude sucks, and you continually try to force feed your gospel down other peoples throats. No one else in this forum does that, despite the fact that most of this forum has more training experience than you; hell, there are many people on here that have decades more experience than you. But yet you, with ALL your experience and knowlege, continually tell us we should be training more effectively, like you are.

For the third time, I have tried every training system out there, including ones that were VERY similar to DC, and HST; 12 years of training gives you the time to do these things. And while those systems were an effective part of my periodization, I did not find them more effective than other ones that I have used. So how about you get your mouth off of DC's nuts for just a minute, and lose the attitude. Intelligent debate is welcome in this forum, but you have been told by more than one member that your holier than thou attitude is not!!!

 

[overhead]

First off I am not an expert, I have only been training for 19 months , so I am not going to jump into the middle of this rather heated discussion with my opinions on training .But I do have a question.
I am not training to become a body builder, and I do not plan on becoming a power lifter anytime in the near future. I lift because I like it, I like getting stronger and I also like getting bigger. For the past 7 weeks I have been following a DC style program, not following it to the letter, I throw in some DE work for bench and squats because I think my lack explosivness(is that even a word?) on those lifts is my weak point. I was planning on following the low volume routine for 3 months, than switching to more of a power lifting type program (west side etc) for three months and continue three month rotations. It would seem that most programs switch between low volume and high volume more frequently than that. In your opinion would it be more effective for me to follow a program that included lower and higher volume work more frequently? Or will a longer rotation allow for both strenth and size gains at a similar rate?

 

[Debaser]

The funny thing is that we have a great forum here where flames pretty much never happen. But every thread I've ever seen you post on has turned into a flame fest. Why is that??? Because your attitude sucks, and you continually try to force feed your gospel down other peoples throats. No one else in this forum does that, despite the fact that most of this forum has more training experience than you; hell, there are many people on here that have decades more experience than you. But yet you, with ALL your experience and knowlege, continually tell us we should be training more effectively, like you are.

You're thinking about how I was months ago. Maybe if you looked at my posts you'll see that I don't do that anymore. Need I remind you, there were NO flames until laternius and you came around. And I didn't start anything. I'm not even doing DC training right now, I'm starting to think you're just a jackass. All I have to do is mention DC training, and you come on here thinking that I'm flaming everyone. You're just biased too. I pissed you off a few months back and you think that I still want to flame lots of people. I started this thread for casual debate, but to you this is unacceptable. I'm not trying to debate, I'm trying to force feed DC down everyone's throat (even though I am discussing a CONCEPT, not a specific routine).

It's VERY convenient for you to say that you tried programs similar to DC and HST, with no other information, and you simply say that they were not very effective. What are the details? What exactly was your routine? I seriously doubt it was that similar to HST, it's not exactly an intuitive program.

You keep calling me a newbie that could make gains on any program, that doesn't change the fact that I'm making them much faster than others. I don't know ONE trainee that put on 40 lbs of muscle their first year. It's easy for you to talk about how great your gains are on your program, but exactly how much of those gains were natural?

 

[b fold the truth]

I don't know ONE trainee that put on 40 lbs of muscle their first year.

You do now...

B True

 

[bigguns15]

Um, I didn't know it was physically possible to put on 40 lbs of muscle in a year... for anyone.

 

[b fold the truth]

Um, I didn't know it was physically possible to put on 40 lbs of muscle in a year... for anyone.

My bodyweight went from about 152-190 or more in the first year of training. You are right, there is a difference between bodyweight and muscle...but I didn't gain much visible fat during that time...if any.

B True

 

[FatRat]

Debaser, I think the important thing here is for you not to take this thread personally, just listen to what people are saying, and where they are coming from. Just think about if this situation was happening in your local gym. Would you go up to a 300lb + guy who had been working out since you where in junior school, tell him he was doing it all wrong, and not expect a reaction (whether what you are saying is correct or not)? You seem a good and intelligent guy with great potential in this field ahead, but with all due respect, you and others have kind of been asking for this. I respect you all, I just think this blinkered following of DC “type” training is a little narrow minded.

As I said in a post waaaaaay back in this thread, I believe DC works, period. I had a great 3 months of DC earlier this year and will go back to it in the future. Now, as part if a periodised, and what I believe is a rounded program I have switched to 5x5 for a change of pace, and guess what, it works too! As far as rate of growth, well I can’t determine any noticeable difference.

DC works, 5x5 works, hell HST, WSB, even the huge amounts of volume that Arnold did back in the day “works”. If we then want to talk about optimising growth, well there are just too many factors to take into account. CoolColJ posted a great article a couple of pages back that puts these forward.

Whilst your or anyone else’s training experience does not determine their knowledge level, you cannot use your 40lbs gain as evidence. To be honest, that is probably just as much a testament to your understanding of nutrition, and your consistency and enthusiasm as it is your training method. Give an underweight teen a couple of protein shakes a day and a set of dumbbells and he will put on some decent weight in a year.

Everything works for a while, but I find change to be the best catalyst for growth.

 

[b fold the truth]

I didn't say your routine was ineffective, I just said that I believe (based on logic, science, and personal experiences) that DC training will make you grow FASTER.

Just wanted to point out this quote...

B True

 

[pwr_machine]

 

[Debaser]

I only said DC because that's what he kept referring to. Not that that is an untrue statement, but you could have filled in HST as well (these are the 2 most well known frequency based programs)

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

So far ive seen people say (pointing to Debaser) everyone gains great in their first year of training. Really? Every new guy in your gym is 40lbs larger than they were last year? Please dont tell me that because thats utter bullshit! 99% of everyone in the gym looks close too if not the same as they did last year. You the new trainers reading this--are you 40lbs heavier than you were last year?

Secondly: if someone is going to say they have done similiar methods to mine in the past and its no big deal----you better as hell been doing low sets extremely heavy weights, rest pause, statics, frequency of training, extreme stretching and eating twice your bodyweight (at least) in protein grams. Otherwise you did your own thing.

Thirdly--Ive seen two people now say "proof is in the pudding"--well I dont like using myself as example--Im more proud of changing others but Ive never seen anyone pro or otherwise put on 164lbs since their starting weight (with mediocre genetics at best) and another thing the people on this board might want to get is an ego/reality check--because I'm training god damn monsters who completely dwarf almost everyone on this whole board. I have a guy 6'5 320 who has been up as high as 390 training for strongman --another 6'3 335 and another 6'3 308 very lean and all these guys are heading northward. Besides that I have some shorter competitors that are now at or approaching that bigtime 4lbs per inch of height mark. You tell me anyone else out there that is consistently putting 35-60lbs on people (their first year with me) and Ill be the first to give them respect. But the bottom line is this--this is exactly what I want. I want "them" and I want "me"--a distinct difference between us two. And Im going to make a slew of people EAT CROW in the not too distant future. Im the one that sees the emails I get--Im the one who hears all the feedback. Im helping about 8 or so national competitors (all lightheavies up to superheavies) get up to an extreme size in their quest to win their classes nationally. So here you go-- call me on it--CALL ME THE HELL OUT--Im telling you right now--as these guys are winning and telling people how they train this is going to snowball into something that becomes the norm to do in bodybuilding. So when you see so and so who got his pro card and the way he trains and see my methods there--you better as hell stay with your way of training because if I see you on these boards saying you have switched over to DC after bashing me so handedly previously--Im going to call you out in capital letters and remind you of it on any thread you post on. I told people in the beginning what I was doing with local people--I told them what it would do if they did it the way I designed it--theres been so many people who gained 30plus lbs now on that cycles for pennies thread that Ive lost total count--and now Im telling you this and you can CALL ME ON IT in the future. Theres a huge movement of people doing my methods now--and as they continue and start winning big shows--this training is going to become more and more common. You have never seen me come on here and bash 5x5 WSB HST or any other methods---NEVER. Why? Because I believe where there is progression there is gains and I believe any of those methods will work. Im more partial to HST and my methods as I believe the progression is faster.
But as I was saying my promise to you is--Ill remember the screen names who bellowed so profoundly against this and I will have great joy blasting someone in a year or two if I see them doing anything similiar to my methods------------------------------------latinus_spicticus please dont forget what you posted on this thread and I wont forget what Ive just posted and we will see who looks like an idiot and eats crow.

 

[needsize]

Debaser, you can think I'm a jackass all you want, but I wager you wont find many in this forum that would agree. I spend my time in this forum trying to help others, and I never force anything on anyone else. I had ne preconceived notions before I read this thread. I've seen the difference in your posts from months ago to now. But in this thread I got the definite impression you were trashing other approaches, and as B pointed out, you did make the statement that DC is the fastest way to grow. Thats my problem with this thread, as the only evidence you have to that is anecdotal.

I didnt provide details on the routines I;ve tried as I didnt feel it necessary. Do you have any idea the amount of material you can read on this subject when you follow it religiously for over a decade? In all those years, I have tried it all, and I know what was effective. And like I said, the DC style approach was effective, but I didnt find it anymore so than other routines that I have done

 

[Imakarum_Mirabilis]

B, Needsize, CoolColJ, CasulaBB, and Latinus are correct.

I am one who has gained 40 pounds in his first year. I did it on periodized "volume" work, not any DC or HIT variant.

Fit the program to the the person, not the person to the program.

 

[sk*]

So far ive seen people say (pointing to Debaser) everyone gains great in their first year of training. Really? Every new guy in your gym is 40lbs larger than they were last year? Please dont tell me that because thats utter bullshit! 99% of everyone in the gym looks close too if not the same as they did last year. You the new trainers reading this--are you 40lbs heavier than you were last year?

Not taking anything away from you, but most guys in the gym I go to eat candy and only do curls.

Gaining 40lbs for the newcomer is nothing extraordinary if they follow a set routine that is on the sticky of this forum.

-sk

 

[IronLion]

So far ive seen people say (pointing to Debaser) everyone gains great in their first year of training. Really? Every new guy in your gym is 40lbs larger than they were last year? Please dont tell me that because thats utter bullshit! 99% of everyone in the gym looks close too if not the same as they did last year. You the new trainers reading this--are you 40lbs heavier than you were last year?

Secondly: if someone is going to say they have done similiar methods to mine in the past and its no big deal----you better as hell been doing low sets extremely heavy weights, rest pause, statics, frequency of training, extreme stretching and eating twice your bodyweight (at least) in protein grams. Otherwise you did your own thing.

Thirdly--Ive seen two people now say "proof is in the pudding"--well I dont like using myself as example--Im more proud of changing others but Ive never seen anyone pro or otherwise put on 164lbs since their starting weight (with mediocre genetics at best) and another thing the people on this board might want to get is an ego/reality check--because I'm training god damn monsters who completely dwarf almost everyone on this whole board. I have a guy 6'5 320 who has been up as high as 390 training for strongman --another 6'3 335 and another 6'3 308 very lean and all these guys are heading northward. Besides that I have some shorter competitors that are now at or approaching that bigtime 4lbs per inch of height mark. You tell me anyone else out there that is consistently putting 35-60lbs on people (their first year with me) and Ill be the first to give them respect. But the bottom line is this--this is exactly what I want. I want "them" and I want "me"--a distinct difference between us two. And Im going to make a slew of people EAT CROW in the not too distant future. Im the one that sees the emails I get--Im the one who hears all the feedback. Im helping about 8 or so national competitors (all lightheavies up to superheavies) get up to an extreme size in their quest to win their classes nationally. So here you go-- call me on it--CALL ME THE HELL OUT--Im telling you right now--as these guys are winning and telling people how they train this is going to snowball into something that becomes the norm to do in bodybuilding. So when you see so and so who got his pro card and the way he trains and see my methods there--you better as hell stay with your way of training because if I see you on these boards saying you have switched over to DC after bashing me so handedly previously--Im going to call you out in capital letters and remind you of it on any thread you post on. I told people in the beginning what I was doing with local people--I told them what it would do if they did it the way I designed it--theres been so many people who gained 30plus lbs now on that cycles for pennies thread that Ive lost total count--and now Im telling you this and you can CALL ME ON IT in the future. Theres a huge movement of people doing my methods now--and as they continue and start winning big shows--this training is going to become more and more common. You have never seen me come on here and bash 5x5 WSB HST or any other methods---NEVER. Why? Because I believe where there is progression there is gains and I believe any of those methods will work. Im more partial to HST and my methods as I believe the progression is faster.
But as I was saying my promise to you is--Ill remember the screen names who bellowed so profoundly against this and I will have great joy blasting someone in a year or two if I see them doing anything similiar to my methods------------------------------------latinus_spicticus please dont forget what you posted on this thread and I wont forget what Ive just posted and we will see who looks like an idiot and eats crow.

I have always agreed with all the "DC" training ideas, in fact when someone asks me what the best bb routine is I point them to your thread because it works great for hypertrophy.

That being said, there is so much more to a performance based program. It just gets old listening to you people act like what you are doing is the end all to training. Lets be honest, growing big muscles is the easy part, the hard part is making those muscles useful. Does your program focus on power, balance, muscle endurance, or anything else that an athlete needs? NO

It is not the program it is your attitude, I am calling you out on that. If you don't want to be respectful then don't post and that goes for Debasser too.


If you don't like it I would love to meet in person to discuss this further

 

[needsize]

DC, you need to mellow the fuck out. I dont recall anyone in this thread "calling you out". It looks to me like anything negative that we've thrown in that direction, was at the way debaser came across, not the system itself. I know myself I've said a few times in this thread alone, that the DC method of training is obviously very effective. But you guys seem to fly right off the handle when someone doesnt agree that it is the best one. I've seen guys turn into monsters on all kinds of training approaches, so I dont see how anyone can say that any one system is the absolute best one....

Why is it that everyone who supports this style of training is so sensitive and flies off the handle so easily? Christ, I've got a training system up in the sticky on this page too, do I care if someone trashes it. Not in the least, why, because there are pro's and cons to every system, not every system works that great for everyone, and myself I use many approaches, not just the one I posted about

 

[pwr_machine]

Did somebody CALL?

 

[BlkWS6]

What happend to this thread? At first I thought it was all about questioning frequency? Then it turned into a high vs. low volume war, and now it seems to be a DC debate? Could we possibly get back to the frequency cause I wouldnt mind hearing more about it. I have followed once a week training methods for a long time and had a great deal of success with them (5x5) but now Im trying something a little bit different and I like it a lot so far. If my memory serves me right arent a lot of training methods on this board in fact higher frequency methods?

WSB: De and Me days (and when I used to read over at elitefitness.com I would read stuff posted that said some WSB guys would train back many, many times in a week).

DFHT: 2x a week frequency I believe.

DC: 2x a week.

HST: 3x a week.

So I would imagine it would be hard to deny the effectiveness of frequency since many great programs incorporate it. However, I had great success on 5x5 and I was hitting everything once a week.

 

[pwr_machine]

Thanks for making an effort to get back to the original post. I was getting quite bored with the pissing contest.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

IronLion::That being said, there is so much more to a performance based program. It just gets old listening to you people act like what you are doing is the end all to training. Lets be honest, growing big muscles is the easy part, the hard part is making those muscles useful. Does your program focus on power, balance, muscle endurance, or anything else that an athlete needs? NO

Doggcrapp:: My regimen is pure and simple----bodybuilding (was that hard to figure out?)

IronLion::It is not the program it is your attitude, I am calling you out on that. If you don't want to be respectful then don't post and that goes for Debasser too.

Doggcrapp:: I hear this every freaking time--Did you go back and read this thread? Do you see me on it saying DC is the end all of training?!?!?! My attitude???? What I saw were some people on this thread bashing my methods and I came on here and said you better check the scoreboard because--my trainees are dwarfing everyone here and thats the truth (OR PROOF IN THE PUDDING) as many people have been asking for.

IronLion::If you don't like it I would love to meet in person to discuss this further

Doggcrapp:: LOL Is that a threat? Oh great another guy who is as tough as his 21.95 internet access allows him to be. I train in Escondido CA at the sport club-at 6pm--look around for the second largest guy in the club because Nassir's been training there lately. I guess your whole true reason for posting was to look like the true American Badass. Dont use me to try to make yourself look hard.

 

[pwr_machine]

Here we go again.

 

[revexrevex]

You're all banned. Get out.

 

[bigguns15]

Is it just me, or are some people around here really full of themselves?

No matter how big or strong you get, there will always be someone bigger and stronger than you. Maybe we should all try a little humility.

I am very appreciative of all the scientific training knowledge floating around this board. I have gotten some very useful information and am planning to use it in my training. What I don't find helpful at all is the bickering back and forth about whose got bigger muscles and who's training program is better.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Needsize:: DC, you need to mellow the fuck out. I dont recall anyone in this thread "calling you out". It looks to me like anything negative that we've thrown in that direction, was at the way debaser came across, not the system itself. I know myself I've said a few times in this thread alone, that the DC method of training is obviously very effective. But you guys seem to fly right off the handle when someone doesnt agree that it is the best one. I've seen guys turn into monsters on all kinds of training approaches, so I dont see how anyone can say that any one system is the absolute best one....

Doggcrapp:: and I have nothing but respect for your opinions Needsize ---but where have you seen me say DC is the end all of training? If you were in my shoes and posted your methods of NS training and after the 400th guy or so has posted that he has gained 35lbs of muscle with your methods yet you still hear people say "NS sucks--it doesnt work--it wont work long--the only reason it works is because....etc etc etc" --wouldnt you get a little tired of it and tell people "check the scoreboard"--because thats what Im doing.

Needsize::Why is it that everyone who supports this style of training is so sensitive and flies off the handle so easily? Christ, I've got a training system up in the sticky on this page too, do I care if someone trashes it. Not in the least, why, because there are pro's and cons to every system, not every system works that great for everyone, and myself I use many approaches, not just the one I posted about

Doggcrapp:: and again I respect that and thats why you so rarely see me talking about other methods. Even if I totally disagree with them, I leave them alone and say nothing. Why because I think its much better to create something or make something better than try to make yourself look good by ripping someone else. So let me clarify
a) I dont think my methods are the end all-but I know that IM pretty damn good at putting alot of muscle on people very fast----in fact if I see something that is working incredibly well for people and it is someone elses idea in this bodybuilding genre--I will be the first to credit that person and I would add it to my program. Im doing that right now with something Big Kiwi does at professional muscle--I thought a variation of it might work well and anyone I suggest it to I say--this is big kiwis not mine. Im not set in stone--but people on this board throwing bombs at my methods cant take the fact that I come on here and argue against their opinions. Is that wrong? I dont know. Maybe it is and I should take others advice and just shut up and do my thing. I got a bunch of emails saying "get the hell off of elite why the heck are you posting there--its a bunch of newbies, holier than thou's and 12 years training but weighing 180lbs know-it- alls.
Ive seen you say DC works and its noted--but this is the only board i scan thru online where people to this day--almost 2 years later say derogatory things. I dont even count the Hardcore Muscle newsletter I wrote in the early 90's and the local people I trained all thru the 90's ---Well if it didnt work it would of fizzled out long ago. I honestly dont understand this shit. I dont go to my gym and preach my methods on anyone--I do my thing and if someone asks me what I do, I tell them. Ive been training at the same two big gyms for the last 2 years--in that time I can pick a handfull of people (out of about a thousand) who have actually improved in that time. After 15 years of training Im still gaining 10plus lbs a year. I dont care what kind of training someone does--thats their choice---I dont care if only one person on this earth trains this way (ME) --but its very hard for me to sit back and read someone bashing my methods when all those pics are out there--all these people are saying it's changed them dramatically--and Im getting people up 35lbs plus consistently over and over. I was kind of hoping DC fizzled out over here thats why I rarely post over here--I want it to die out over time, cuz Im sick of the arguing (and this is the only board that happens at)

 

[IronLion]

DC you win.....I have better things to do......youre threads are always so useful, thanks....

 

[bilat]

Yes, that's what I ment. He will make great gains even if he squated and benched every day at high volume.

I just started my friend in working out, and he doesn't listen to me. He goes in the gym a few times a day and does whatever he wants. He grows like a weed.

-sk

I think not following a concrete template and doing what your body feels is a good thing.....

 

[Tiervexx]

Um, I didn't know it was physically possible to put on 40 lbs of muscle in a year... for anyone.

my first year of training i put on 50 lbs and if anything my body fat went down. since then my gains have slowed but that is what happend.

 

[Mike_Rojas]

Certain members just come on this board to argue.

 

[bigguns15]

my first year of training i put on 50 lbs and if anything my body fat went down. since then my gains have slowed but that is what happend.

*sigh*

Yes, you can add that much weight in a year. However, it is not LBM alone. The leaner look is due to more mass for it to be distributed over. You still gain fat.

I just thought it was impossible to add strictly that much muscle mass in a year. That is over 1.5 pounds of pure muscle every 2 weeks.

 

[needsize]

DC, too be honest I havent seen you post all that much, so much of what I said was directed at your supporters. Like I said, I have no doubt whatsoever that your approach works and works well. I just dont like having stuff shoved down my throat, which is what some people on this board tend to do(although there has been some mellowing out over time). It honestly is a shame that these threads degenerate into this sort of flaming, as there certainly are a lot of merits to comparing the different systems.

I am always looking for new ways to add muscle, as its looking like you physique is looking pretty much tapped out, which is why I've tried every system I could find over the years. After this contest is over, I might give your approach, exactly the one you advocate, a try, to see what happens. I'm one of those people that does have a hard time wrapping their head around so few work sets, but I'm willing to try anything that might add more muscle to my frame

 

[Tiervexx]

*sigh*

Yes, you can add that much weight in a year. However, it is not LBM alone. The leaner look is due to more mass for it to be distributed over. You still gain fat.

I just thought it was impossible to add strictly that much muscle mass in a year. That is over 1.5 pounds of pure muscle every 2 weeks.

my waist also stayed the same, i might have gained a little fat but it is safe to say that the vast majority of that weight was muscle.

You said that it was not possible to add 40 lbs of muscle, i am simply saying that i did at least that so it is possible. of course i only was able to do that because i was starting from scratch.

 

[pwr_machine]

You said that it was not possible to add 40 lbs of muscle, i am simply saying that i did at least that so it is possible. of course i only was able to do that because i was starting from scratch.

Over 40 pounds of lean body mass in one year? You should contact Guinness. That has to be a first. You're a genetic freak!

 

[Debaser]

What happend to this thread? At first I thought it was all about questioning frequency? Then it turned into a high vs. low volume war, and now it seems to be a DC debate?

I was wondering what happened to. We were all having a good discussion, latinus comes in stirring up shit, then Needsize comes in out of nowhere telling me I flame and try to convert everyone. Go figure, I was confused as hell. If latinus never posted, then this thread would still be a healthy discussion.

Ironlion with all due respect, I'm sure you know a great deal about athletic performance. But who said anything about that? This was a thread about taking advantage of frequency to grow muscle faster.

It would be nice to have an actual discussion on frequency now. I think I covered most of what I wanted to say in my original post, so if anyone wants to discuss a specific point, we could spark some debate.

 

[sk*]

Over 40 pounds of lean body mass in one year? You should contact Guinness. That has to be a first. You're a genetic freak!

Not really ...

I've had similar experiences, and would bet most do if they start off with a good routine and diet.

I would have probably gained more if I deadlifted in my first year and stuck to squats a little bit more religiously.

-sk

 

[Tiervexx]

Over 40 pounds of lean body mass in one year? You should contact Guinness. That has to be a first. You're a genetic freak!

keep in mind that i did not do any hard phisical activaty before that. I did not play any sports apart from tennis and golf(quit both of them, never liked em')

compared to my old life style lifting weights with intensaty was such a huge shock that my body had to grow like fucking crazy.

 

[casualbb]

I have a conspiracy theory. When you boil down to it, who's really responsible for pushing the once a week frequency? Muscle magazines. But they only really started doing it during the '80s. You had a few big big name BB's (Tom Platz) throwing in behind this ultra-intensity high volume, once-a-week stuff. Coincidentally, that's when the supplement industry started becoming really big.

So basically that was the introductory period to the current state of bodybuilding: the masses accepting advice from steroided pro's for the purpose of selling supplements.

That's all well and good, but then realize this: from a business perspective, supplement companies DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO GROW. The sooner you reach your body goals is the sooner you STOP buying their mass gain supplements. Protein, creatine, prohormones, mass gainer powders, all of which are intended for adding LBM, probably comprise the vast majority of supplement sales.

So my personal theory is that whoever runs these magazines knows that their plans don't work all that well, but they do it intentionally to perpetuate supplement sales. It's the only way I can rationalize the vast dissemination of misinformation.

 

[Mike_Rojas]

Interesting theory, casual

I used to train each body part once a week, but I have grown faster training each part twice. Of course there's other mitigating factors such as diet and sleep to consider.

The muscle magazines routines have changed over the years... whole body 3 times a week, split routine each body part 3 times a week, split routine each body part 2 times a week, 3 on 1 off, 4 on 1 off, 2 on 1 off, each body part once a week, etc. The heavy duty stuff even had you working out once every 10 days or so.

I gave up reading the magazines a few years ago, except for laughs when I'm in the book store. I sometimes wonder if their goal is to confuse newbies

 

[Debaser]

Casual I've preached that for quite awhile

 

[blowdpanis]

hmm

i think it's somewhat obvious that more frequent training, up to a point, yields more potential hypertrophy. i halfway agree with the conspiracy theory you've presented, too.

the assumption that people keep making in all of this is that the balance of intensity/volume/frequency is individual because of their concept of overtraining. if you realize that muscular hypertrophy can proceed unhampered regardless of being frequently loaded (see studies haycock has presented), we could come to a pretty fast/obvious conclusion that training more frequently is probably 'the way to go.' note: research comparing volume vs. frequency, cellular processes related to hypertrophy in the context of frequent load, and the 1 vs. many sets debate.

i think how quickly u gain strength is also part of the equation of 'how fast' you reach your genetic ceiling, but in the context of any short run scenario for growth, it's almost blindingly obvious that more frequent = more rapid hypertrophy.

 

[PancakeFiend]

perhaps train more frequently when bulking, and training only each bodypart once a week when dieting is a good way to go.

 

[casualbb]

blowdpanis -- you're absolutely right. What I might add to that (and this may seem like old news but it's worth repeating) is that the dual-factor theory is the correct one. We shouldn't be looking at fatigue from a workout-to-workout basis, but rather over the course of a training cycle lasting some weeks.

That being said, pretty much every frequency program has a built-in recovery period to dissipate the accumulated fatigue from prior frequent trainings. Those "recovery" or "deloading periods" or "strategic deconditioning" may seem like a waste of time but they serve to allow the frequent trainings that accelerate growth.

 

[blowdpanis]

a dumb thought

this might sound incredibly stupid, and i hope no one who knows anything about physics actually corrects me but...

the hst/dc style strike me as the 'phaser' of 'lasers.' the principle of the phaser is that short bursts of laser accumulate more effect than a continuous, steady beam of a laser. it's horribly nerdy, but this is precisely the reason star trek uses 'phasers' (phased lasers) in the future, ie efficacy.

to me, it makes sense to go through intense 'bursts' of hypertrophy seperated by strategic deconditioning (i think this is optimal) or 'cruising' (somewhat less optimal in my mind) if you're talking about a hypertrophy scenario. also adding to the confusion of accumulation of long term strength is the association of hypertrophy and strength (via cross-sectional area). ie, if you do grow rapidly in the short term, this growth will itself facilitate strength, which in turn might allow u (via heavier loads) to facilitate growth. it IS possible that the 'optimal' routine is actually KIND of a strength routine in disguise. if you follow my logic.

also, where's the love on the powertec leg press thread? i would actually like input on that