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Important info on volume and intensity.
- Thread starter davidpro
- Start date
crazedlifter http://www.gotfina.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6552 :
I was big into volume before I tried IA's style TR. Actually doing 20 sets of 20 reps which I got big time heat for still worked for me, but not for long.
When I changed to IA style I got mad strong but probably due to other factors(diet mainly) I did not gain much weight.
I think variety is key to kepping things fresh.
I am now doing more volume and seem to be seeing gains in muscle quality but not strength.
So I agree with SC that a combo is best, kinda like a periodized approach.
CL
I was big into volume before I tried IA's style TR. Actually doing 20 sets of 20 reps which I got big time heat for still worked for me, but not for long.
When I changed to IA style I got mad strong but probably due to other factors(diet mainly) I did not gain much weight.
I think variety is key to kepping things fresh.
I am now doing more volume and seem to be seeing gains in muscle quality but not strength.
So I agree with SC that a combo is best, kinda like a periodized approach.
CL
Thanks realgains, You seem to know your stuff. I`ve always thought I was "not normal" due to the fact that 1 -3 sets of a bodypart would have me wanting to stop working out. (never used gear) Although I do more than that but I could never imagine 10+ sets. That would quickly overtrain me.
I`m just releaved to hear that fewer sets is "OK".
I`m just releaved to hear that fewer sets is "OK".
Re: RG
Bro where do I start?
Bro trust me on this one...there is nothing knew for me under the Sun. Please read on as I must tell you that you are making some very serious errors in training.
I didn't see Squats in the program you gave me ...only hacks.
Shallow inclines and declines along with dips with elbow flaired are the best chest developers by far bro. The isolation work that you are doing may FEEL like they are working the fibers harder but is a mirage.
You have to focus on lifting bigger and bigger weights in the big compound movements and then you will see your chest grow.
Heavy weighted dips are the upper body squat. Please don't waste any more time on the isolation work as you are currently doing things. If you want to utilize some isolation work then do one exercise before a compound exercise but not in a pre-exhaust super set fashion. Rest a little before doing the compound movement. I know this is hard for you to take but this will allow for better stimulation. The isolation work will still pre fatigue the target muscle group but the rest before the compound movement will allow much better stimulation during the compound movement itself. Dorian Ytes and Lee Labrada and even Mike Mentzer all gravitated to this form of pre fatigue training.
BRO please plesase do NOT SQUAT AND DEADLIFT EVERY THREE DAYS...nobody can recuperate form this type of frequency. Heavy hard Squats need AT LEAST 6 ful days between sessions and often time up to 10 days...and regular heavy DEADLIFTS should only be done very hard once every 7-10 day or even less often bro.
One thing that Aurthor Jones was a very smart man but he was DEAD WRONG with his theory that muscle begin to atrophy after 96 hours of rest...that is pure CRAP! It often takes this time for muscles to recuperate and then up to a week for full systemic recuperation. Muscles do not begin to atrophy after a hard workout in 96 hours! maybe a week and a half or two weeks.
Do the regular barbell curls and just don't allow yourself to cheat bro...its that simple.
I have used a two way spilt, training one day and taking two days off, with good results but I now favor a three way split doing fewer exercises per workout and training only MON-WED-FRI while natural.
WORKOUT FOR MASS AND STRENGTH( two way split)
It is best for recuperation reasons to group chest and tri's together and back with bi's.
YOUR FOCUS MUST BE ON MICRO LOADING and NOT intensity as I mentioned in an above post. Make it your life to add small amounts to the bars each week. As I said earlier in another post even 1 pound per week in the bench is good progression after the going gets tough.
www.fractionalplates.com
Focus on getting that next 10 pounds to the squats for example and another 10 and another 10 and after months of this your entire body will be much bigger and stronger..the same can be said for the other compound movements.
Train very hard BUT hold somehting back for the next session...DON"T KILL YOURSELF with intensity..the nervous system will not allow for this.
Day one.
30 degree inclines in a smith machine 3 progressively heavier warm ups with low resp of 5. DO NOT push your self.
Then 2 work sets of 6-8 with as much weight as you can handle.
Rest 2-3 minutes and do the same with 10%less weight.
On the last set do rest pause reps, that is after you cannot do another good rep put the weight down and rest for 10 second and then do more reps ...do this 2-3 times.
Next do two sets of either medium grip dips with elbows flaired with a weight belt, or 2 sets of BB declines or 2 sets of Hammer declines
On steroids you could add a set or two of flat fles, which are better than the pec deck or cable cross overs even though little tension is at the fully contracted position. The flys are optional...the most important thing is adding small to tiny amounts of weight each week to the compound movements.
Next do abbs to rest the tri's. Hanging knee ups and crunches. couple hard sets each . Add weight as you can and don't go over 2o reps. .
Next do tri's. Rets 2-3 minutes between sets
You will get FAR BETTER gains form either close grip benches in the smith machine with a 15 inch grip or machine dips with elbows in and a narrow grip. Another good one is bench dips having someone put a padded heavy barbell at the top of your lap. Be careful not to go too deep with dips or you will mess up the rotator cuffs.
Do one warm up set max and then 3 sets of 6-8. A set of pushdowns or tricep extensions can be done while on roids but again the compound movements are far more important.
Do calves now with 3-5 sets of 10-15 in either the standing calf raise, donkeys or keg press calf raise. Direct soleus work is not needed as these exercises work the soleus hard too.
be sure to utilize the rest pause reps and reduce the weight a little for each set. Keep rests down to 90 seconds
Rets two or three days
Next workout
Again use rest pause form time to time and reduce the weight for each successive work set on many exercises.
Squats deep and hard for 2 sets of 12-15 after 3 warm ups
leg press deep for one set
(Hacks are inferior to both of these)
rest 4-5 minutes between sets
rest 5 minutes sitting against a wall
Stiff leg deadlifts for 2 sets of 10-12. Keep back straight, use straps, go only to mid shin or you will scew up your back in time.
1 set of leg curls
Pulldowns with either a curl grip or medium grip with palms facing each other. 2 sets of 8 ,use straps
Rows for 2 sets..hammer rows are good and so are others
Seated overhead press for 3 sets
Shrugs for 2 sets
Upright rows for shoulders and traps for 2 sets...use straps
BB curls 3 sets... use the rest pause reps for sure.
optional ...wrist curls and reverse curls.
Bro ...isolation work is WAY over rated as is pure pre exhaust super setting. If you must use more isolation work then do then before the compound movement but don't do them in a super set fashion.
IE: you could do a couple sets of laterals before the presses.
Rear delts get plenty of work with over head pressing and back work.
NOTE: many men find it best to use a 5X5 program where you do a couple warm ups and then 3 sets of 5 with the same weight for each set ..with longer rests between sets. Many find it easier to add weight progressively in this way. Reg Parks liked this type of training as do many more.
Try a three way split training MON-WED and FRI. It has one training more frequently but with fewer exercises per workout and works very well.
RG
Mandinka2 said:
Bro where do I start?
Bro trust me on this one...there is nothing knew for me under the Sun. Please read on as I must tell you that you are making some very serious errors in training.
I didn't see Squats in the program you gave me ...only hacks.
Shallow inclines and declines along with dips with elbow flaired are the best chest developers by far bro. The isolation work that you are doing may FEEL like they are working the fibers harder but is a mirage.
You have to focus on lifting bigger and bigger weights in the big compound movements and then you will see your chest grow.
Heavy weighted dips are the upper body squat. Please don't waste any more time on the isolation work as you are currently doing things. If you want to utilize some isolation work then do one exercise before a compound exercise but not in a pre-exhaust super set fashion. Rest a little before doing the compound movement. I know this is hard for you to take but this will allow for better stimulation. The isolation work will still pre fatigue the target muscle group but the rest before the compound movement will allow much better stimulation during the compound movement itself. Dorian Ytes and Lee Labrada and even Mike Mentzer all gravitated to this form of pre fatigue training.
BRO please plesase do NOT SQUAT AND DEADLIFT EVERY THREE DAYS...nobody can recuperate form this type of frequency. Heavy hard Squats need AT LEAST 6 ful days between sessions and often time up to 10 days...and regular heavy DEADLIFTS should only be done very hard once every 7-10 day or even less often bro.
One thing that Aurthor Jones was a very smart man but he was DEAD WRONG with his theory that muscle begin to atrophy after 96 hours of rest...that is pure CRAP! It often takes this time for muscles to recuperate and then up to a week for full systemic recuperation. Muscles do not begin to atrophy after a hard workout in 96 hours! maybe a week and a half or two weeks.
Do the regular barbell curls and just don't allow yourself to cheat bro...its that simple.
I have used a two way spilt, training one day and taking two days off, with good results but I now favor a three way split doing fewer exercises per workout and training only MON-WED-FRI while natural.
WORKOUT FOR MASS AND STRENGTH( two way split)
It is best for recuperation reasons to group chest and tri's together and back with bi's.
YOUR FOCUS MUST BE ON MICRO LOADING and NOT intensity as I mentioned in an above post. Make it your life to add small amounts to the bars each week. As I said earlier in another post even 1 pound per week in the bench is good progression after the going gets tough.
www.fractionalplates.com
Focus on getting that next 10 pounds to the squats for example and another 10 and another 10 and after months of this your entire body will be much bigger and stronger..the same can be said for the other compound movements.
Train very hard BUT hold somehting back for the next session...DON"T KILL YOURSELF with intensity..the nervous system will not allow for this.
Day one.
30 degree inclines in a smith machine 3 progressively heavier warm ups with low resp of 5. DO NOT push your self.
Then 2 work sets of 6-8 with as much weight as you can handle.
Rest 2-3 minutes and do the same with 10%less weight.
On the last set do rest pause reps, that is after you cannot do another good rep put the weight down and rest for 10 second and then do more reps ...do this 2-3 times.
Next do two sets of either medium grip dips with elbows flaired with a weight belt, or 2 sets of BB declines or 2 sets of Hammer declines
On steroids you could add a set or two of flat fles, which are better than the pec deck or cable cross overs even though little tension is at the fully contracted position. The flys are optional...the most important thing is adding small to tiny amounts of weight each week to the compound movements.
Next do abbs to rest the tri's. Hanging knee ups and crunches. couple hard sets each . Add weight as you can and don't go over 2o reps. .
Next do tri's. Rets 2-3 minutes between sets
You will get FAR BETTER gains form either close grip benches in the smith machine with a 15 inch grip or machine dips with elbows in and a narrow grip. Another good one is bench dips having someone put a padded heavy barbell at the top of your lap. Be careful not to go too deep with dips or you will mess up the rotator cuffs.
Do one warm up set max and then 3 sets of 6-8. A set of pushdowns or tricep extensions can be done while on roids but again the compound movements are far more important.
Do calves now with 3-5 sets of 10-15 in either the standing calf raise, donkeys or keg press calf raise. Direct soleus work is not needed as these exercises work the soleus hard too.
be sure to utilize the rest pause reps and reduce the weight a little for each set. Keep rests down to 90 seconds
Rets two or three days
Next workout
Again use rest pause form time to time and reduce the weight for each successive work set on many exercises.
Squats deep and hard for 2 sets of 12-15 after 3 warm ups
leg press deep for one set
(Hacks are inferior to both of these)
rest 4-5 minutes between sets
rest 5 minutes sitting against a wall
Stiff leg deadlifts for 2 sets of 10-12. Keep back straight, use straps, go only to mid shin or you will scew up your back in time.
1 set of leg curls
Pulldowns with either a curl grip or medium grip with palms facing each other. 2 sets of 8 ,use straps
Rows for 2 sets..hammer rows are good and so are others
Seated overhead press for 3 sets
Shrugs for 2 sets
Upright rows for shoulders and traps for 2 sets...use straps
BB curls 3 sets... use the rest pause reps for sure.
optional ...wrist curls and reverse curls.
Bro ...isolation work is WAY over rated as is pure pre exhaust super setting. If you must use more isolation work then do then before the compound movement but don't do them in a super set fashion.
IE: you could do a couple sets of laterals before the presses.
Rear delts get plenty of work with over head pressing and back work.
NOTE: many men find it best to use a 5X5 program where you do a couple warm ups and then 3 sets of 5 with the same weight for each set ..with longer rests between sets. Many find it easier to add weight progressively in this way. Reg Parks liked this type of training as do many more.
Try a three way split training MON-WED and FRI. It has one training more frequently but with fewer exercises per workout and works very well.
RG
Last edited:
Mandinka2
New member
RG!
Holy shit ! That is what I call root and branch attack! Ok Bro ,I'll get started on reconstruction of the workout , unfortunately I can't check my email as frequently at the weekend but just to keep you up to date , I am up 3 pounds this morning (start of third day) on cycle. Should see the poundage effect today in gym for first time. Take care and once again thankyou. Only thing I will say now is that I get terrible terrible lower back pumps which tends to limit my squatting after a few sets.
Holy shit ! That is what I call root and branch attack! Ok Bro ,I'll get started on reconstruction of the workout , unfortunately I can't check my email as frequently at the weekend but just to keep you up to date , I am up 3 pounds this morning (start of third day) on cycle. Should see the poundage effect today in gym for first time. Take care and once again thankyou. Only thing I will say now is that I get terrible terrible lower back pumps which tends to limit my squatting after a few sets.
Lift Chief
New member
Great post realgains- i've heard something similar to what you have listed in some books i have read. Seems as though we've all been overtraining.
Lift Chief said:
Volume training will not work for the average guy even on roids and will work for almost nobody training naturally. You've got to have darn good genetics and perferably no job, other than training, to progress on this type of training. Now there are exceptions but not that many really.
I advise the average guy not to even read the training articles in the glossy mags for the most part, although there is the odd good one.
On the other hand there are guys that train with
little volume and try to kill themselves with intensity day in and day out...this too is a waste of time for most as the nervous system cannot handle this either. One has to train hard this is true but the focus needs to be on progressive poundages and not intensity. Intensity will come along nicely with this focus but it doesn't become the primary goal. This is very difficult for many high intensity trainees to swallow but it the truth never the less.
Ideally one wants to limit volume to 3-5 working sets per muscle group while training naturally and you want to train quite infrequently. Some very hard gainers should only do 2-3 working sets per muscle group and train only twice per week on the basics only.
You also have to be very careful with cardio and other sports or you will not gain.
Sets should be taken to the point were another good rep isn't possible and that usually enough intensity. Few men do this in the squat and deadlifts and thus their poor overall developement. Heck most men don't even squat and those that do don't do them correctly(deep) and hard enough. Additional Rest pause reps can be used from time to time and very rarely forced reps while training naturally.
Isolation work is given too much time and basic compound movements are neglected with many men and this a serious error.
Isolation work should be limited very much so while trying to gain mass and strength.
Now on roids the volume can go up to 4-8 or 9 working sets per body part(I never do more than 6 working sets) and you can get away with more days in the gym and more high intensity stuff and a little more isolation work but one still has to be very careful here and many shouldn't change things much at all.
Quadsweep, who is a national level competitor trains with about this volume and is a fan or Dorian Yates and Mike Mentzer.
The most important aspect to training for mass and strength is almost forgotten nowadays and that is MICRO LOADING, that is adding small to tiny weights to the bars on a weekly basis. One needs to always be focusing on getting that next 1- 2 pounds on the dip for reps for example from week to week looking forward to using 10 pounds more then another ten and another ten etc etc.
The lowest weight in most gym is 2.5 and that makes for a minimum 5lb jump in weight and that is way too much for weekly or even biweekly increases in weight even in the squat once the going gets tough. So everyone should get some tiny plates...like half pounder. one pounders etc
www.fractionalplates.com
Best read on Bodybuilding is "A Warriors Story" by Dorian Yates
Best web site for the truely hard gainer is www.hardgainer.com
RG
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