I'm discouraged with 5x5 mad cow. Please help!

[gymrat surfer]

well im glad you mentioned the adderall. Bro you need to make it priority #1 to get off that.

I agree with you 100%! Do you have any suggestions to doing this? What can I do to have enough energy for working all day (which is mentally exhausting) and also having enough energy for a solid work out?

 

[gymrat surfer]

First, as a preliminary matter, your deloads are not sufficiently deloading you in my opinion. The standard deload for the intermediate madcow program is to 90% and other programs often call for an 80% deload.

seems like I would be starting from scratch again, almost at the bar if I was to drop 90% from 280lbs. So what do you mean by 90%? I'm assuming I am misunderstanding this. Thanks.

Your deload is only to about 95% of your PRs. It would be better to drop to 90% or even 80% and then work your way back up in larger increments until you get to, or close to, your current maxes. From there its okay to use the fractional plates.

So if this was my last failure point via example below. How would you apply your quote above to this situation?


Example of Mondays 5x5,failing before deloading again on chest
165
190
215
245
277.5 (using 1.5lb increases towards 280)

For some reason your horizontal pressing/pulling is way out of wack. Ideally, you want to be pulling horizontally (rowing) the same, or nearly the same weight as you are benching.

I feel you on this one! Unfortunately, the only way I can keep making weight on my rows, is if I jerk my body to help me lift it. Because I believe in strict form, I am only allowing myself to row from the correct muscles used.

You are 225 lbs doing 4 rows with 50 pounds strapped to you

Those are Chin ups I'm doing

It might be worth switching over to doing a advanced 5x5 program for your bench.

You think I should give myself a fair deloading phaze done the proper way before doing advanced on this 1 lift? Would love the guidelines to how to properly deload.

Also, do you think its important to keep squatting 3 times a week?

And, do you think any of the sets should be adjusted, reps?

The other main possibility is that your recovery is not good enough. Ideally you should be consuming 3000+ calories a day, with a large (ideally something like 30%+) portion being from protein. You should be getting 8-10 hours of sleep. You should be drinking ~1 gallon of water a day. Any of these things you aren't doing will cut into your recovery ability.

AMEN! Probably the biggest thing holding me back right now! I've been doing some major thinking about the diet. Please tell me if this diet would be sufficient via example below...


Meal 1:
8 egg whites (1 yolk)
2 trader joe flax oatmeal packets

Meal 2:
Pro-max optimum nutrition shake
With Milk

Meal 3:
2 chicken breasts with whole wheat bread crumbs
(chicken cutlets)
Super greens veggie drink (green vibrance)


Meal 4:
Post Workout Shake
1 scoop Hydro-whey (optimum nutrition)
2 scoop 2-1-1 recovery (optimum nutrition)

Meal 5:
8oz Filet Mignon (cycled with veal chop, huge rib eye, lamb chops)
2 slices of ezekiel bread (sprouted whole wheat)

Meal 6:
2 scoops of Cassien
Milk (Optimum nutrition)

There's something screwy with your test. 250 mg/week is quite high for a TRT dose and your total test should be significantly higher at that dose than what yours currently is (something more like 2-3x as high). Did you just recently start it? Is it pharmaceutical grade or otherwise legit? At the same time both your total and free test are around the mid range so this isn't likely holding you back.

I have been on my TRT dose for about 6-8 months straight. Obviously won't mention source but was wondering if it was underdosed or if it was just my body. I do take arimason 12.5 every 3rd day. Would like to do 250iu HCG twice a week, but can't find a domestic source I was wondering if I should up the test, wait a month and get another blood test to see where my total test/free test fall again and if it's in range, maintain that or if to high, lower it again. What are your thought?

One other question. When you say you keep getting stuck at 280, do you notice yourself getting stronger at all? In other words, do you keep getting closer and closer to repping the 5th rep, but just cant seem to hit it within 2 weeks? Or are you pretty much just BARELY getting the 4th one every time. I ask because it may also just be a mental thing.

With the 1.5lb increases, I actually stall before the 280, like 277.5. Pretty weird, huh?

Thanks for your time and effort to helping me break through this wall. Appreciate you guys taking the time to help me out here

 

[_cato_]

seems like I would be starting from scratch again, almost at the bar if I was to drop 90% from 280lbs. So what do you mean by 90%? I'm assuming I am misunderstanding this. Thanks.

You think I should give myself a fair deloading phaze done the proper way before doing advanced on this 1 lift? Would love the guidelines to how to properly deload.

By 90%, I don't mean reduce the weight by 90%, I mean reduce it TO 90% of whatever number you got up to. Or in other words, reduce by 10%. So for you, let's say your 5 rep max is about 275. If you wanted to reboot a lift, you'd start it at 275*.9=247.5, but you can round this off. Then increase back to 275 by week 4 in roughly even increments.

If I were you, I'd probably structure it like this (with the Friday workout being whatever next Monday is set to be but for 3 reps only, as before):
W1M: 245x5
W2M: 255x5
W3M: 265x5
W4M: 275x5 (roughly tying your old PR)
W5M: 276.5x5 (now from this point on, you can use the microplate jumps if you like.
W6M: 278x5 and so on

Not saying you necessarily have to increase by only 1.5 pounds. You'll have to go by feel. After completing your W4 workout, you can decide what's feasible. Maybe the 275x5 feels super easy, then you might decide to go up by 5 lbs (or somewhere in between 1.5 and 5 if you can). I'd say as an upper limit, no more than 5 lbs increases though.

Also, even if and when you hit failure, I'd encourage you to get a competent spotter and do as much of a 5th rep as you can get (if you have anything at all left after the 4th rep). Have the spotter only help just barely enough as might be necessary to get the bar back up. Don't count that as a "completed rep," but it's a good way to gauge if you are getting stronger from week to week if, for example, one week you get about half of the 5th rep, and the next week you get about 3/4 of the rep, etc.

As I said earlier, if you somehow end up hitting that same 280x4 number, or worse, and you don't think its a nontraining related issue, then it's probably time to change your routine up. If you like the 5x5 style, you might first try doing an "advanced" routine with straight sets on Monday ONLY for your bench. Otherwise, since you're interested in strength, 5/3/1 might be worth giving a shot.

Those are Chin ups I'm doing

My bad, typo, I meant to write given your chin strength, your rows are surprisingly weak.

Also, do you think its important to keep squatting 3 times a week?

And, do you think any of the sets should be adjusted, reps?

I think it depends on your goals. You said earlier you were interested primarily in strength. If full body strength is what you're after then squatting 3x a week is a good way to do it. It's also obviously a good overall mass builder. Is it absolutely essential? No. Are squats good? Yes. Keep in mind that although you are squatting 3x a week, the overall weekly volume is really not that high. If you were doing a bodypart split for example, you'd probably doing 10-20 leg work sets. In the 5x5 intermediate realistically you're only doing maybe 4 (top 2 on Monday and friday). Everything else is really a warmup, and in the case of the Wednesday squatting, more like active recovery/motor pathway work.

If you mean any of the sets/reps adjusted on bench, then maybe perhaps, depending on how the deload goes, if you choose to go that route with it. If not, there's different things you can try...3x5, 5x3, 5x5, max effort and speed work M/F split, switching to floor/3 board press or something along those lines, etc etc. Really it's up to you. As to the other lifts, if you are still making nice progress using this routine, then I say if it ain't broke then don't fix it.

If I recall, you've been doing this routine a while. So I'm guessing you've had major gains on your big three over that period. How many other people do you know doing other routines who add 50+ pounds to their lifts over a period of lifts (assuming they aren't complete beginners)? As many people can attest to, these 5x5 high frequency programs do work well.

AMEN! Probably the biggest thing holding me back right now! I've been doing some major thinking about the diet. Please tell me if this diet would be sufficient via example below...


Meal 1:
8 egg whites (1 yolk)
2 trader joe flax oatmeal packets

Meal 2:
Pro-max optimum nutrition shake
With Milk

Meal 3:
2 chicken breasts with whole wheat bread crumbs
(chicken cutlets)
Super greens veggie drink (green vibrance)


Meal 4:
Post Workout Shake
1 scoop Hydro-whey (optimum nutrition)
2 scoop 2-1-1 recovery (optimum nutrition)

Meal 5:
8oz Filet Mignon (cycled with veal chop, huge rib eye, lamb chops)
2 slices of ezekiel bread (sprouted whole wheat)

Meal 6:
2 scoops of Cassien
Milk (Optimum nutrition)

I wouldn't consider myself to be any sort of expert in the dietary arena. Hopefully some of these other guys, like maybe EM, will chime in here. That said, assuming this ends up to be 3000+ calories, it looks decent enough. Obviously any time you can replace a shake with real food its better, but it looks like you've probably got enough protein there, and I doubt eating a similar diet every day would hold you back in any way from strength gains.

I have been on my TRT dose for about 6-8 months straight. Obviously won't mention source but was wondering if it was underdosed or if it was just my body. I do take arimason 12.5 every 3rd day. Would like to do 250iu HCG twice a week, but can't find a domestic source I was wondering if I should up the test, wait a month and get another blood test to see where my total test/free test fall again and if it's in range, maintain that or if to high, lower it again. What are your thought?

Again, I'm not an expert by any stretch here (so maybe others will chime in). Your test may be under-dosed. Normal range total test range is roughly 250 - 1100 ng/dL, and normal free test is roughly 35 - 155 pg/mL. So as I said before, your current values on TRT place you in the middle(ish) of that range. With a 250mg/week dose, your total T should be well up above 1000, unless you took the blood test quite a few days from an injection, in which case those levels would make sense. If that's the case then you might consider pinning half as much 2x a week if you aren't already to keep thin blood levels more stable. And obviously, if that's the case then there's no problem with the gear.

As to whether you should increase/decrease the dose, I'd say that's up to you. Depends on how you feel with what you're currently doing vs how you'd like to feel how much muscle you're looking to gain etc. The answer to this will depend a lot on how far from your last pin that blood test was and on how frequently you're pinning per week. That said, 250 is considered quite high for a TRT dose.

Hope that's helpful.

 

[_cato_]

I agree with you 100%! Do you have any suggestions to doing this? What can I do to have enough energy for working all day (which is mentally exhausting) and also having enough energy for a solid work out?

Depends how much, what form, and how you're taking it. If by "abusing" you just mean you're taking 1 adderall XR 20mg per day, then that's one thing. If, on the other hand, you're putting 60mg up your nose then that's a bit different.

If you want to ween off of it, the easiest way is to keep taking it but slowly reduce the dosage. Down 30-20-10-5 something like that if possible, maybe reducing once every 5-7 days if possible (assuming you have access to different mg pills and/or tabs instead of caps).

 

[ExtraMile]

Its stopped working, the solution is relatively simple... just analyse your diet and training; you either need more food (likely cause if you've gained alot of bodyweight) or you need to change the training, the 5x5 doesnt work forever and personally I hate it. Which ever solution you choose I would start by doing a deload week.

 

[ExtraMile]

Meal 1:
8 egg whites (1 yolk) <--- 5 large eggs, 6 fl oz egg whites
2 trader joe flax oatmeal packets <--- just regular oatmeal here
+ a banana

Meal 2:
Pro-max optimum nutrition shake
With (whole) Milk

Meal 3:
2 chicken breasts with whole wheat bread crumbs <-- use the ezekiel bread here and make it a chicken+salad sandwich
Super greens veggie drink (green vibrance) <--- spinnach leaves, peppers/cucumber

Meal 4:
Post Workout Shake
1 scoop Hydro-whey (optimum nutrition)
2 scoop 2-1-1 recovery (optimum nutrition) <-- just do 2 scoops any protein powder in 1% or skimmed milk+ 1 banana + 1 apple

Meal 5:
8oz Filet Mignon (cycled with veal chop, huge rib eye, lamb chops)
2 slices of ezekiel bread (sprouted whole wheat) <-- rice or potatoes instead of bread
get some green veggies in here, broccoli is good

Meal 6:
2 scoops of Cassien
Milk (Optimum nutrition) <-- personally I would cut out the shake and do hard boiled eggs instead but if yuo want then keep the shake for now and see how you go. Shakes are more expensive than eggs though...

heres some adjustments I would personally make without adding lots of meals.

Im presuming you dont gain fat easily since your drinking milk and wanting to gain weight...

if you start getting fat I would drop the milk except for post w/o and stop using bread. You can make up for the loss of protein with other foods and there are much better sources of fat than milk (I use alot of extra virgin olive oil and almonds) and bread is a starch that offers no nutritional benefit as far as vitamins/minerals go, it can also cause bloating.

 

[lweaver]

In addition to your current diet, order a large pizza every night and drizzle it with olive oil. Do not get up until you finish it. Additionally, ingest a Hershey bar every 1-2 hours without fail.

I'm not a hard gainer and have never had to resort to this, but if I was I'd def. give it a try.

 

[ExtraMile]

In addition to your current diet, order a large pizza every night and drizzle it with olive oil. Do not get up until you finish it. Additionally, ingest a Hershey bar every 1-2 hours without fail.

I'm not a hard gainer and have never had to resort to this, but if I was I'd def. give it a try.

There is no reason he would need to resort to eating like that. He may need 4000kcal per day to grow if he is an extreme hardgainer but even then that amount is pretty easy to eat in clean food.

Maybe resort to dave tate's dirty bulking article when, like he did, you need 8000+ kcal per day.

I see in the teen section of BB.com so many teens dirty bulking in order to hit their 3500kcal per day bulking macro's lmao. It's just an excuse not to eat clean IMO. Using fast food is an unhealthy and inefficient way to do it when you just need <4000kcal IMO. Having a cheat meal once a week or maybe even once every 4 days is one thing and understandable if you stay lean but everyday is not the way to do it. The only big name BBer I have ever heard of eating like that was Dave Palumbo who said he regretted doing so.

 

[gymrat surfer]

Depends how much, what form, and how you're taking it. If by "abusing" you just mean you're taking 1 adderall XR 20mg per day, then that's one thing. If, on the other hand, you're putting 60mg up your nose then that's a bit different.

If you want to ween off of it, the easiest way is to keep taking it but slowly reduce the dosage. Down 30-20-10-5 something like that if possible, maybe reducing once every 5-7 days if possible (assuming you have access to different mg pills and/or tabs instead of caps).

I am taking 30mgs of amphetamine salts (not XR). I like your idea of weaning off. I'll shoot for that. (not sniffing that stuff, haha. Just swallowing it.)

 

[gymrat surfer]

I mean reduce it TO 90% of whatever number you got up to.

Or in other words, reduce by 10%. Ok. Got it. Thanks!

If I were you, I'd probably structure it like this (with the Friday workout being whatever next Monday is set to be but for 3 reps only, as before):
W1M: 245x5
W2M: 255x5
W3M: 265x5
W4M: 275x5 (roughly tying your old PR)
W5M: 276.5x5 (now from this point on, you can use the microplate jumps if you like.
W6M: 278x5 and so on

If I feel like I am not getting stronger although making weight on my way back up, is it o.k. to prolong it to 6-8 weeks to get back and just go with how i feel as far as making increases anywhere from 1.5lbs up to 5lbs? very helpful example!

Also, even if and when you hit failure, I'd encourage you to get a competent spotter and do as much of a 5th rep as you can get (if you have anything at all left after the 4th rep).

When I bench, I do it in the squat rack so I feel comfortable going to failure as all I have to do is drop my chest and it hits the pins. To be honest, i hate asking for spots cause then they do the work for me, grab the bar, or sweat drips in my face. Amazing how so many people don't know how to spot in my gym. Wish there was a golds (sorry for rant), haha.

As I said earlier, if you somehow end up hitting that same 280x4 number, or worse, and you don't think its a nontraining related issue, then it's probably time to change your routine up. If you like the 5x5 style, you might first try doing an "advanced" routine with straight sets on Monday ONLY for your bench.

I like your idea that after totally failing on one exercise how I could integrate a hybrid of the advanced & intermediate. You think that's a good way to transition into the program? Just do advanced for the lifts that hit plateaus after deloading doesn't work anymore and continue intermediate on the other exercises?

I think it depends on your goals. You said earlier you were interested primarily in strength. If full body strength is what you're after then squatting 3x a week is a good way to do it. It's also obviously a good overall mass builder. Is it absolutely essential? No. Are squats good? Yes. Keep in mind that although you are squatting 3x a week, the overall weekly volume is really not that high. If you were doing a bodypart split for example, you'd probably doing 10-20 leg work sets. In the 5x5 intermediate realistically you're only doing maybe 4 (top 2 on Monday and friday). Everything else is really a warmup, and in the case of the Wednesday squatting, more like active recovery/motor pathway work.

Great point! I'll suck it up!

if you are still making nice progress using this routine, then I say if it ain't broke then don't fix it.

Great point again! I'll just stick with the program as outlined, follow your deloading instructions and then switch to advanced on the particular lifts that hit the plateau.

If I recall, you've been doing this routine a while. So I'm guessing you've had major gains on your big three over that period. How many other people do you know doing other routines who add 50+ pounds to their lifts over a period of lifts (assuming they aren't complete beginners)? As many people can attest to, these 5x5 high frequency programs do work well.

Another great point! You're on fire today! haha. I am proud of my gains for the minute amount of testosterone I'm on. Never lifted 275 easily before hand (except 5 years ago when I was on 1000mgs of test a week), however, i do miss doing shrugs, side delt raises, more bicep work, rear delts, but then again, 5X5 taught me it's meaningless.

With a 250mg/week dose, your total T should be well up above 1000, unless you took the blood test quite a few days from an injection, in which case those levels would make sense. If that's the case then you might consider pinning half as much 2x a week if you aren't already to keep thin blood levels more stable.

Interesting response. Because I take my shot every monday. And when I got this blood test, I took it on Friday. So I think i'll take your advice and shoot twice a week and split the dose. Then 1 month later, take a blood test again and then gauge from there...

250 is considered quite high for a TRT dose.

So let's say after splitting the dose and taking another blood test i'm still in mid range. Although 250mg is considered high, is the real result the total test levels and free test? Meaning, that if I upped it another 100mgs lets say, and my total test was under 1000 and free test was also within proper range, would that be something I could maintain long term and still be healthy? Obviously if I was over the levels, I would drop it too.

Hope that's helpful.

yes it was! Thanks again. Starting to gain some clarity here!