do middle-aged men need less or no starch?

[splizzit]

what do you guys think about this I read from an article talking about carbs cycling for muscle pumps.... it then got more general with this statement -
“Middle age adults will want to shift away from excess starches in their diet and focus more on consuming a combination of lean proteins, greens, vegetables, fruits, nuts, seeds, and healthy fats.
The whole idea is that you just don’t need the same amount of starch carbohydrates you did when you were younger. And for that matter your body is likely not optimized to use a lot of starch and sugars for fuel due to changes in insulin sensitivity.”

i think it would be difficult for me to get enough carbs from greens and non-starchy vegetables; and i get the feeling here most dont agree with a lot of fructose from fruits. giving up sweet potatoes & brown rice & quinoa etc. wow!?


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[SteveMobsterG]

I'd ask why. If, as a guess, they are either suggesting that people my age do less exercise or work then maybe (and even then that BS in my case) or that (unlikely) we somehow change then they are full of shit.

 

[splizzit]

I'd ask why. If, as a guess, they are either suggesting that people my age do less exercise or work then maybe (and even then that BS in my case) or that (unlikely) we somehow change then they are full of shit.

the topic was getting muscle pumps. lots of things were mentioned (potassium, nitrogen, food, supplements, lifting routine, etc); but when it got to carbs, the author suggested carbs and glycogen loading can support this pump (esp 100-200 morning & some after strenuous exercise. since you cant eat 500g carb ed (well for the average non-hulk I guess), he suggested carb-up 3 days in a row, then drop to moderate. the caveat was to older men STILL actively bodybuilding & looking for a period of muscle pump in the workout cycle. He was suggesting that the carb up or carbs in general should be lower in grams and less starchy in composition as compared to a younger bodybuilder who has better insulin sensitivity & (the strange part) less need of carbs for fuel so therefore i guess can rely more on fats.


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[stevesmi]

this obsession over fueling muscles and insulin sensitivity does not apply to 99% of us..

you don't need to 'fuel up' before a workout bro. i laugh when people try and tell me this nonsense. if you go to a half marathon race you don't see guys sitting around eating carbs and those guys burn way more glycogen than a weightlifter will dream of.

you notice how in the gym so many guys are perma bulkers? that is because of stupid articles and advice like this that teach guys that they need to over eat or they will starve their muscles

 

[splizzit]

this obsession over fueling muscles and insulin sensitivity does not apply to 99% of us..

you don't need to 'fuel up' before a workout bro. i laugh when people try and tell me this nonsense. if you go to a half marathon race you don't see guys sitting around eating carbs and those guys burn way more glycogen than a weightlifter will dream of.

you notice how in the gym so many guys are perma bulkers? that is because of stupid articles and advice like this that teach guys that they need to over eat or they will starve their muscles

I appreciate the advise. I no longer worry over this and often lift fasted (as you do as well). I now wait an hour after lifting due directly to your recent advise & because I’m cutting a bit of weight now; and its a success so far.
But this topic of fueling wasn’t my original question; I just offered all the background because masonic’s reply seemed to request more background on the context of the article
My original question was not about loading or anything else in the article; just the part about older men needing less starch & carbs in general. I’ve read more often older men need less protein, that’s why i asked about this statement. Just, in general, do macro needs change for an aging weight lifter (whatever form or sport or purpose).
Thanks.


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[SteveMobsterG]

the topic was getting muscle pumps. lots of things were mentioned (potassium, nitrogen, food, supplements, lifting routine, etc); but when it got to carbs, the author suggested carbs and glycogen loading can support this pump (esp 100-200 morning & some after strenuous exercise. since you cant eat 500g carb ed (well for the average non-hulk I guess), he suggested carb-up 3 days in a row, then drop to moderate. the caveat was to older men STILL actively bodybuilding & looking for a period of muscle pump in the workout cycle. He was suggesting that the carb up or carbs in general should be lower in grams and less starchy in composition as compared to a younger bodybuilder who has better insulin sensitivity & (the strange part) less need of carbs for fuel so therefore i guess can rely more on fats.


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Possible but..

How great of a difference woukld there be.

Drugs would need to be removed from the equation and finally

The sensitivity may only be true if both are untrained.

 

[SteveMobsterG]

I appreciate the advise. I no longer worry over this and often lift fasted (as you do as well). I now wait an hour after lifting due directly to your recent advise & because I’m cutting a bit of weight now; and its a success so far.
But this topic of fueling wasn’t my original question; I just offered all the background because masonic’s reply seemed to request more background on the context of the article
My original question was not about loading or anything else in the article; just the part about older men needing less starch & carbs in general. I’ve read more often older men need less protein, that’s why i asked about this statement. Just, in general, do macro needs change for an aging weight lifter (whatever form or sport or purpose).
Thanks.


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This IS true. If they don't train. Like an old retired fella won't need half as much as a young blood working his ass off.

 

[SteveMobsterG]

I'd also contact the writer regarding his logic.

 

[splizzit]

I'd also contact the writer regarding his logic.

sorry. i said the wrong user name b4. I meant steve. not masonic.
yeah, good idea, a long article expressing implied authority on a subject yet lacking evidence or sources or logic as you said is irritating.


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[splizzit]

this obsession over fueling muscles and insulin sensitivity does not apply to 99% of us..

you don't need to 'fuel up' before a workout bro. i laugh when people try and tell me this nonsense. if you go to a half marathon race you don't see guys sitting around eating carbs and those guys burn way more glycogen than a weightlifter will dream of.

you notice how in the gym so many guys are perma bulkers? that is because of stupid articles and advice like this that teach guys that they need to over eat or they will starve their muscles

again, I always appreciate your feedback. getting alternate views expands my range of what i have experimented with to learn if it works for me. So, please, don’t take this as a complaint, I simply want to start a brief dialog about a sort of catch 22 I see here. Not necessarily this question & thread. I understand fully that the moderators here must be very cautious with their replies due to many newbies or uninformed or inexperienced etc users. I often see the remark paraphrased “careful, people are just looking for an excuse to....x”. The catch 22 I see is that this often creates these replies geared toward the lowest common denominator which is unhelpful to me personally. I know its a community, but I am asking the question for selfish reasons haha. I often get the answer like “in most people in won’t make that big a difference” & that diet and training regimen & all that are the most important.” agreed, but I got that covered. I understand the need to say that this fueling concept just gives an excuse or habit to overeat - for other readers. for a direct answer to me, that is not useful. I’m a macro freak. I track everything & have daily caloric & macro goals. so, if I were to “fuel-up”, i would decrease & adjust any other meals to still be at my daily goal. Since I read something from you recently stating you consider it best to eat small breakfast, big lunch, & small dinner, I am currently trying it since I tend to be a grazer. So any big “fuel-up” would not contradict your advise as to having 1 large meal. I know your 1st paragraph answered fueling up is unnecessary with another ex of runners, I told you, this thread isn’t the best ex.
sorry this is long..... I just want to be clear so u don’t misunderstand my concern.
#2. So back to the “its a small %” thing. I get it, but I have experimented with everything for many years and have never been able to push past my genetic plateaus in respect to my objectives. I know them well. muscle mass vs my speed vs my fat% etc for changing purposes over time. my point is, to me, small %’s of positive change would be of great interest. thats why i fidget and ask all these annoying questions. I would love to find 1 more little tweak that could provide a few %’s benefit. string 3 or 4 together....
Extremely long story short - maybe moderators could answer the question carefully for risk reduction, then give an answer geared to more knowledgeable & really geeky user. I have no right to ask a pm from you guys with lives to live, so thats why I bring this up. The need on public boards for moderators to give measured answers can render the board less useful for those seeking more open discussion.
This question is not the best example of a need for more open discussion, it just triggered this feeling from some previous discussions. on some of the other boards might be where health stakes are higher.
Thanks for reading this & if you find my concern at all valid, maybe other moderators have an opinion.

and yes....i forget who, i think its steve that always says to me.... i AM overthinking it i know. a bit. but the science interests me and that usually involves small %’s & a lot of overthought detail.


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[SteveMobsterG]

Think of it this way - BTW you really don't need to be a macro freak - if there was any great truth to the idea we'd have died out as a race.

I wrote recently in my tips thread on Evo that we, as a species, have not changed since we started playing sports. Heck we've barely changed (if indeed at all) since we started using languages.

With that in mind we know from personal experiences that there have been times when we have managed to carry on doing an arduous rask when hungry. We know from how hard training was to how we adapted to it.

Ergo we know, to quote Stevesmi, that we can adapt to training fasted. That our bodies will, if need be, use stored fat over fuel in our blood or digesting in our gut.

Therefore, how much of a difference does carbs make? How long before the gym do we need to eat (I've written of how this ignores the food you had throughout the day). To then debate the differences of, for example, a 16 year old, a 24 year old and someone more middle aged is, it has to be said, nit picking and, as has been said, if it DID make a difference it'd be tiny.

By way of example several studies, covering all ages, showed little or no difference in performance between those using sports drinks and those using water.

To finish: we cover the 'masses' because 100+ people read every answer. And we encourage those to leave the nitty gritty alone because it can all too often mean the basics aren't being covered.

 

[splizzit]

Think of it this way - BTW you really don't need to be a macro freak - if there was any great truth to the idea we'd have died out as a race.

I wrote recently in my tips thread on Evo that we, as a species, have not changed since we started playing sports. Heck we've barely changed (if indeed at all) since we started using languages.

With that in mind we know from personal experiences that there have been times when we have managed to carry on doing an arduous rask when hungry. We know from how hard training was to how we adapted to it.

Ergo we know, to quote Stevesmi, that we can adapt to training fasted. That our bodies will, if need be, use stored fat over fuel in our blood or digesting in our gut.

Therefore, how much of a difference does carbs make? How long before the gym do we need to eat (I've written of how this ignores the food you had throughout the day). To then debate the differences of, for example, a 16 year old, a 24 year old and someone more middle aged is, it has to be said, nit picking and, as has been said, if it DID make a difference it'd be tiny.

By way of example several studies, covering all ages, showed little or no difference in performance between those using sports drinks and those using water.

To finish: we cover the 'masses' because 100+ people read every answer. And we encourage those to leave the nitty gritty alone because it can all too often mean the basics aren't being covered.

Thanks for taking the time for this; its just like I feel so like I’m so annoying & I wanted to get some clarification. I read the FAQ’s, but honestly i don’t remember specific language that discouraged drill down questions...maybe because I saw so much knowledge on display here and other boards I was carried away. I will re-read the FAQ & I will be more conscious to abide. Maybe you have a suggestion of a good forum to waste my time kicking around maybe stupidly detailed stuff. I’m not being sarcastic toward you or the forum I promise, its hard to communicate self-deprecating humor through text. Anyways, I’m very glad to get the clarification.

As far as the macros thing, I appreciate what you said, but again, that advise I think would be for the normal person. I literally do not know when I’m hungry or full or even judgement about food amounts. It’s been like that since I can remember as a child. If I don’t track it, I could be eating 1000’s of calories under or over. I understand in the medium term I could adjust as I see my body responding, but I’d rather just stay on top of it rather than correcting all the time. It might be worth noting your mention of survival is not my goal. I’m looking to push normal performance on many different levels. It is also worth noting my personal experience, I used to just wing-it and use my natural instincts and general advise & standards for years in training, it was not until I started really tracking and finding my personal optimized levels or whatever on everything and strictly following it that I made real break-though advances. I am genetically disadvantaged in many ways and need every little advantage i can achieve. they add up, believe me.

Again,
Thank you for all the help.




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[SteveMobsterG]

In your case look at Prader-Willis syndrome.

 

[stevesmi]

on our last podcast we talked about this actually, you should check it out.

it is kind of self hating on myself too cause i used to be one of those people i now make fun of.. i was like that cause i listened to the cookie cutter parroting

 

[SteveMobsterG]

Further to my earlier reply: where these minute details become of interest is in those last weeks of a bodybuilding diet. The difference, in a few cases, between winning and placing.

 

[muskate]

These 'one size fits all' diet recommendations do not work.

MOST middle aged men are inactive so they should consume less carbohydrates. Yes.

However, the same recommendation does not make sense for middle aged men who are regularly active

 

[MasonicBodybuilder]

I can tell you from my personal experience, at 36 years old, I need much less carbs than I did even 5 years ago. If I eat too many I can easily add body fat.

 

[SteveMobsterG]

I can tell you from my personal experience, at 36 years old, I need much less carbs than I did even 5 years ago. If I eat too many I can easily add body fat.

But why? Are you less active for example?

When I was 20-27 I worked a hard laboring job in a meat plant. Towards the end there were times I'd do 17 hour days, 7 day weeks etc. Obviously my carbs and fat would be burned like f**k.

Now if I do some, as I did this weekend, a little trail walking I'll burn some then. My work varies (although I only do 2 days a week) so some days I do a little laboring and others more. My gym work doesn't burn loads.