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60 minutes watching Tiger Woods-Now very interested in a Hedge Fund**Anyone with knowlege of hedge Funds here?

excellent sources of old data you supplied matt

going by absolute returns as of dec 30 2005:


S&P Hedge Fund Index had a 5yr Ann Ret of 6.14%
while the S&P 500 Index had a 5yr Ann Ret of (1.12%)

but i suppose the s&p's random sampling of different hedge funds and their strategies is somehow over reporting the succesful funds and under reporting all the flops although they have been tracked since april of 99. and i'm sure they are under reporting their own collection of the 500 equities that make up one of the most widely followed index's in the world

quit spinning old shit. the truth is most hedge funds do NOT lose money. some do just like many mutual funds do. your wide sweeping generalizations are a crock of shit

and you want a source for that? look on standard and poors own website
 
those are some old ass dates in there. considering that economy was heading for or mired in a recession... I would not weigh those averages based on todays date.
 
MattTheSkywalker said:
Yes, you work in finance. So does the register clerk at McDonalds, you cubicle dwelling monkey. Nah, just playing, I love stupid comments from people who don't know shit.

Here is some background for the benefit of readers who don't work in (lol) finance. Hedge funds aim for absolute returns, whether the market is increasing or declining. That said,

Most hedge funds invest in the same securities available to mutual funds and individual investors. You can therefore only reasonably expect higher returns if you select a superior manager or pick a timely strategy. From January 1994 to September 2000 - a raging bull market by any definition - the passive S&P 500 index outperformed every major hedge fund strategy by a whopping 6% in annualized return

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/03/121003.asp

When you aim for absolute returns, and you do worse than the index, you're losing money.


And before that, here is some more data

A study by Yale and NYU Stern economists, Off Shore Hedge Funds: Survival and Performance: 1989-1995, indicates that during that six-year period, the average annual return for offshore hedge funds was 13.6%, whereas the average annual gain for the S&P 500 was 16.5%. Even worse, the rate of closure for funds rose to over 20% per year, so choosing a long-term hedge fund is trickier even than choosing a stock investment.




Here is something from business week: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_37/b3899105_mz070.htm

At first glance, hedge-fund returns look pretty good. Since 1990 hedge funds have earned an average of 11.9% a year, according to Citigroup (C ), which recently published a study on performance. Over the same time, the S&P 500 and the average stock mutual fund have risen 10.5% and 9.2%, respectively. But on a risk-adjusted basis, hedge-fund performance has declined in recent years -- and it isn't expected to rebound anytime soon

Here is the last one, proving that the data is worthless anyway.

http://www.fpanet.org/journal/articles/2004_Issues/jfp0204-art2.cfm

In terms of performance data, reported hedge fund performance is upward biased, incomplete and inconsistent across database vendors. Historical returns must be viewed skeptically because most vendors of performance information merely provide a conduit for data supplied by fund managers without independent verification. The impressive performance numbers reported for various hedge fund strategies create a distorted impression because participation in performance databases is elective, and one can safely assume that hedge fund managers opt to participate only after a period of good past performance. Hedge funds with poor performance are missing from performance databases, resulting in an overstatement of returns for the category as a whole.


So among managers who report, numbers seem good. Just less than indexes.

lol

here is why you hear so much about hedge funds of late: A few have had spectacular returns - guys like Lampert have made billions. They dominate the news. Hedge funds in general have done well because interest rates were really low in the US, and even lower overseas. SOme really big funds, like cerberus, bought overseas banks. But even if they did not, they were able to borrow money really cheap.

This money invested anywhere would make money, and the spread was wide due to the low interest. Furthermore, hedge fund guys did make some creative investments, buying things like catastrophe bonds which would never have to pay (especially on the first tranche). But this was not superior wisdom; they just followed the billions of private equity dollars into reinsurance. These bonds paid like 9%, so you collect 9% while borrowing at 1%, and you're going to look pretty smart.

But rates are going up, and those bonds are being re worded so they will actually be triggered. Like all good things, the short hedge fund run (which is overstated anyway) will come to an end.
ok, so where is the data showing that most hedge funds LOST money!

I don't care if they didn't beat the SP500, especially during a BULL market, hedge funds are shorting stocks, so they would generally do better in a bear market.

And off shore hedge funds don't equal "most hedge" funds, so thanks, but its not exactly relevant is it?
 
the s&p 500 comparison is a valid one in evaluating a fund's performance. it's a widely used benchmark

but it's more relevant to use current data, not some dating back 21 yrs ago
 
Devastation said:
the s&p 500 comparison is a valid one in evaluating a fund's performance. it's a widely used benchmark

but it's more relevant to use current data, not some dating back 21 yrs ago
I'm not asking about benchmarks.

Again, here is the statement:
"Most (hedgefunds) lost money."


So which ones lost money and when????
 
MattTheSkywalker said:
Yes, you work in finance. So does the register clerk at McDonalds, you cubicle dwelling monkey. Nah, just playing, I love stupid comments from people who don't know shit.

By the way, I love 600+ word responses that don't address the question they were intending to answer, especially when the response contradicts previous statements by the same poster.

MattTheSkywalker said:
I've done an assload of research. Most lose money.


MattTheSkywalker said:
Here is some background for the benefit of readers who don't work in (lol) finance.

MattTheSkywalker said:
A study by Yale and NYU Stern economists, Off Shore Hedge Funds: Survival and Performance: 1989-1995, indicates that during that six-year period, the average annual return for offshore hedge funds was 13.6%

MattTheSkywalker said:
Since 1990 hedge funds have earned an average of 11.9% a year, according to Citigroup (C ), which recently published a study on performance.


10%+ returns = losing money?
 
Gradient and Rocker are not to blame for Overstock's BS. Good story but 60 Minutes missed the real story about how companies blame naked short sales.
 
Devastation said:
excellent sources of old data you supplied matt

going by absolute returns as of dec 30 2005:

S&P Hedge Fund Index had a 5yr Ann Ret of 6.14%
while the S&P 500 Index had a 5yr Ann Ret of (1.12%)

but i suppose the s&p's random sampling of different hedge funds and their strategies is somehow over reporting the succesful funds and under reporting all the flops although they have been tracked since april of 99. and i'm sure they are under reporting their own collection of the 500 equities that make up one of the most widely followed index's in the world

quit spinning old shit. the truth is most hedge funds do NOT lose money. some do just like many mutual funds do. your wide sweeping generalizations are a crock of shit

and you want a source for that? look on standard and poors own website

Dev

Did you read the part about hedge fund data being incomplete because reporting is voluntary?

Do you expect a manager with shitty returns to report, if he does not have to? How about funds that closed down? Where is that data? You won't find it anywhere, because withot regulation, there is no reporting structure. The data we both cited is best case. So in the past 5 years, the S&P hedge fund index averaged 4% better than the S&P 500?

(Again, loser funds were not included)

So the average Joe that bought a house did better than the average hedge fund.


dev said:
but it's more relevant to use current data, not some dating back 21 yrs ago

LOL at "old data" about investing. Markets are cyclical. read Buffett's letter to shareholders; he divides the market in 17 year cycles. Why? because markets are cyclical.

http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/2005ltr.pdf

You guys crack me up.

Did you understand the piece about low interest rates and cheap borrowing? Do you understand why that matters - and that even with every possible advantage, hedge funds returned AT BEST 5%? Let me borrow money at 1% and put it in a CD at 3% and I'm equaling hedge funds.

Here's some more good shit from the EF finance squad:

AAP said:
those are some old ass dates in there. considering that economy was heading for or mired in a recession... I would not weigh those averages based on todays date.

That's because you evidently know not too much about investing and less than zero about hedge funds. Hedge funds play the absolute return game, so it doesn't matter (or it shouldn't) what the economy as a whole is doing. Furthermore - again - for the 5th time, markets are cyclical.

And now for putzz numero uno:

lestat said:
So which ones lost money and when????

Brian,

let's try this in pieces

1. reporting is voluntary. Losers are not reporting unless they want to. Funds that closed up are not included in any data. The best case since 2001 is hedge funds doing 4% better than the S&P. Include the losers and the funds that closed, and I am sure that number will drop to a negative.

2. If your hedge fund (absolute returns) is outperformed by an index, then you're losing money.


For those of you who want to do something other than read your own posts on the screen, hope that was helpful. For the rest of you, good luck. :)
 
MattTheSkywalker said:
Dev

Did you read the part about hedge fund data being incomplete because reporting is voluntary?



This statement right here shows that your previous one of hedge funds losing is nothing more than a contrite opinion.

If they don't report, how can you possibly claim that ALL were worthless.

And claiming someone doesn't know nothing about the subject at hand would seem to be the height of irony coming from you when more than one person on here is contradicting what you posted.
 
glad to see some more responses here. matt, the market is cyclical no doubt, but i believe 17 yrs is far too long. the gdp cycle that corresponds with the interest rate cycle is a far better evaluator of what segments are investable during the market cycle. as gdp slows, the fed will begin easing and this is where historical data is useful in determining what is investible

using the fed funds interest rate to borrow cheap money, or even borrowing it from japan, to pick up a small spread on some bonds somewhere is only one minor strategy, albeit a supposedly "simple" one, a hedge fund may employ. ltcm used multiple times leverage when they loaded up on russian gov backed bonds and were doing alright until one day the russians woke up and decided they weren't going to honor their own debt obligations. there are far better strategies hedgies use that produce far better returns, although the risk rises also

and the "old data" i was referring to was your evidence of hedge funds poor returns, not what the market was doing at any point in history. i don't care what a fund did 20 yrs ago because that manager is long gone. what is the average lifespan of the avg fund manager in this business? less then 10 yrs? i would believe that is fair estimate. so what happens beyond that time frame is absolutely irrelevant in any terms of performance in my book

and as far as the s&p 500 hedge fund index not reporting losers, that's not true, they follow 42 different funds performance with 3 sub categories that divides their strategies so to equally weight and represent 9 different strategies that are widely used my almost all hedge funds. again tho they follow the SAME 42 funds for the last 2 yrs (i believe they started with 30 funds in 2002 and went back to 1999 to arrive at the data i posted earlier)

one final note on hedge funds, mutual funds, berkshire hathaway etc, is there comes a point of diminishing returns to the large scale of capital a fund can control. a fund can be easily nimble up to around 300 to 500 million without sacrificing performance. once you're over 500 million, you start to become an index fund, if being long equities are your main strategy. this is a huge reason why many large funds underperform. stevie cohen has capped his hedge fund for years and is having exceptional returns the last few years (yes SAC capital was the one 60 minutes reported on and cohen's own fund (it's his initials that make up the name of the fund)). boone pickens had a 700% return last year with his fund and his main strategy is trading oil contracts (definately not from arbitraging the yield difference from the borrowing rate to some low to moderate risk bonds somewhere)
 
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