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5 X 5 Training Method
- Thread starter spatts
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Steve The Bluesman
New member
I am going to start 5x5 again in March after I finish my HST (I usually alternate 8 weeks each with 10 days off in between)
Mine looks like this, 3 day split:
Day 1: (push)
5x5 Bench press
5x5 Standing military press
5x5 Dips
2x8 flyes
2x8 lateral raises
Day 2: (Pull)
5x5 Deads
5x5 Chins
5x5 Hammers
2x8 bent rows
2x8 incline DB curls
Day 3: (legs)
5x5 Squats
5x5 SLDL
5x5 Calf raises
I usually need two days off between days 2 and 3 due to both squats and deads in the same routine...but it works wells for me.
YMMV,
Later
Mine looks like this, 3 day split:
Day 1: (push)
5x5 Bench press
5x5 Standing military press
5x5 Dips
2x8 flyes
2x8 lateral raises
Day 2: (Pull)
5x5 Deads
5x5 Chins
5x5 Hammers
2x8 bent rows
2x8 incline DB curls
Day 3: (legs)
5x5 Squats
5x5 SLDL
5x5 Calf raises
I usually need two days off between days 2 and 3 due to both squats and deads in the same routine...but it works wells for me.
YMMV,
Later
Texas Ranger
New member
Excellent program!!! Seriously thinking about giving this a try.
ghettostudmuffin
New member
I am very interested in started this 5x5 routine you've been talking about with the volume and intensity phases. I've printed out all the stuff and would like to make it a staple in my training program.
I am thinking of competing in powerlifting at some point, but for now I just want to get as strong and as big as I can and this looks like a very effective, no fluff program for that.
I am a little confused on a few points though as far as upping the weights goes.
My 5x5 rep max for bench is 210lbs and that is a tough workout at this point. So to properly setup my program would I start at say 200lbs week 1, 205lbs week 2, 210lbs week 3, and 215 lbs week 4 would be the pr week or should I start at 205lbs and try for 220lbs for 5x5 on week 4 and 215 on week 3?
Week 5 drops the wednesday squat and switches to 3x3 with the same weight as the previous weeks, but this is where I get confused. I'm supposed to hit pr's during week's 9 and 10, so what's up with week's 6, 7, and 8? Do I stay at the same weight as week 5 for those week's and coast and then set new weight pr's on 9 and 10 or am I supposed to be upping the weights from week 6 on? If that's the case then I'd be setting pr's from week 6 on up right? I don't know what my true 3x3 and 1x3 maxes are.
I'm probably making this more complicated than it is, but these are my issues with fully understanding this program.
I have a few questions besides this though. Can I sub weighted dips instead of military press?
When I do the workouts am I supposed to do each exercise by itself and then proceed to the next or am I supposed to do it circuit style and do a set of each exercise, then repeat?
If I'm supposed to set new records in 5x5 and 1x5 and since I don't know my straight up 1x5 max, but know my 5x5 is 210 then should I just guess 10lbs more than that?
Help a guy out.
I am thinking of competing in powerlifting at some point, but for now I just want to get as strong and as big as I can and this looks like a very effective, no fluff program for that.
I am a little confused on a few points though as far as upping the weights goes.
My 5x5 rep max for bench is 210lbs and that is a tough workout at this point. So to properly setup my program would I start at say 200lbs week 1, 205lbs week 2, 210lbs week 3, and 215 lbs week 4 would be the pr week or should I start at 205lbs and try for 220lbs for 5x5 on week 4 and 215 on week 3?
Week 5 drops the wednesday squat and switches to 3x3 with the same weight as the previous weeks, but this is where I get confused. I'm supposed to hit pr's during week's 9 and 10, so what's up with week's 6, 7, and 8? Do I stay at the same weight as week 5 for those week's and coast and then set new weight pr's on 9 and 10 or am I supposed to be upping the weights from week 6 on? If that's the case then I'd be setting pr's from week 6 on up right? I don't know what my true 3x3 and 1x3 maxes are.
I'm probably making this more complicated than it is, but these are my issues with fully understanding this program.
I have a few questions besides this though. Can I sub weighted dips instead of military press?
When I do the workouts am I supposed to do each exercise by itself and then proceed to the next or am I supposed to do it circuit style and do a set of each exercise, then repeat?
If I'm supposed to set new records in 5x5 and 1x5 and since I don't know my straight up 1x5 max, but know my 5x5 is 210 then should I just guess 10lbs more than that?
Help a guy out.
blut wump
New member
I think you're referring to madcow's modified 5x5. I'm in week four of my first attempt at that routine and I think I've read enough of his posts to answer this. You could PM him to join the thread.
If your current max on a 5x5 is 210 then you should aim to beat that on week 3 and then increase again on week 4. I'd suggest you start week one with about 190 and then go to 205 for week two.
Week five you use the same weights for 3x3 and 1x3 as you used for week four's 5x5 and 1x5. This week is meant to be a lot easier on you than week four was and is the start of your recovery period from all the volume of the first four weeks. In weeks six and seven you continue to increase by amounts which will let you set fresh PRs in weeks 8 and 9 for 3x3 and 1x3.
As a guide, I reckon that if you can currently do a maximal workout of 210 for 5x5 then your 1RM is probably around 285 and so your current 1x3 is probably around 260 and your 3x3 is probably around 240. Madcow has mentioned several times that anyone's first attempt at this routine will not be perfect as you discover just what your lifts are and so can get a second run of the workout better calibrated.
Forget circuits. Do the exercise to completion and then do the next exercise.
Based on your 5x5 max I'd estimate your 1x5 max is around 245. A lot depends on how well conditioned you are and how fast you do your 5x5. You could spend an initial week just determining where your lifts are or guess and get it right second time around.
Substituting exercises should be fine so long as you keep the core squat, bench and deadlift in place.
Good luck with it.
If your current max on a 5x5 is 210 then you should aim to beat that on week 3 and then increase again on week 4. I'd suggest you start week one with about 190 and then go to 205 for week two.
Week five you use the same weights for 3x3 and 1x3 as you used for week four's 5x5 and 1x5. This week is meant to be a lot easier on you than week four was and is the start of your recovery period from all the volume of the first four weeks. In weeks six and seven you continue to increase by amounts which will let you set fresh PRs in weeks 8 and 9 for 3x3 and 1x3.
As a guide, I reckon that if you can currently do a maximal workout of 210 for 5x5 then your 1RM is probably around 285 and so your current 1x3 is probably around 260 and your 3x3 is probably around 240. Madcow has mentioned several times that anyone's first attempt at this routine will not be perfect as you discover just what your lifts are and so can get a second run of the workout better calibrated.
Forget circuits. Do the exercise to completion and then do the next exercise.
Based on your 5x5 max I'd estimate your 1x5 max is around 245. A lot depends on how well conditioned you are and how fast you do your 5x5. You could spend an initial week just determining where your lifts are or guess and get it right second time around.
Substituting exercises should be fine so long as you keep the core squat, bench and deadlift in place.
Good luck with it.
What a great answer. I'm actually going to put together a web site on geocities and make it super easy for everyone. I thought it was explained decently by my posts here, at fortified Iron, and the ones on Meso but well over 50% of the people wind up with similar questions so that's too high.
But yeah, the key is in scaling the weights up systematically until you are matching or exceeding records in weeks 3/4 and 8/9. Your 1x5 (or 1x3) day is a separate weight progression from your 5x5 (or 3x3) days. The exercise is the same but target weight for the single set workout is higher for pretty obvious reasons.
In addition, during the volume 5x5/1x5 phase the 5x5 workouts are done with a constant target set weight which scales each week while the 1x5 day is a pyramid of 5 sets culminating in the target heavy set of 5. You absolutely must get the volume in this phase so if that means doing some light sets that's okay. Once in the 3x3/1x3 the important factor is the weight progression. Keep pushing it up. You can cut volume or take extra days of rest as needed (and I'm beginning to think allowing choice for someone new to this is a bad idea because there's too many other factors new guys have to contend with - there's a 2 day deloading program also).
Basically in the first phase you have relatively high volume and are scaling intensity up (% of 1RM). In the second phase, volume is slashed but intensity is still scaling up. The total work output requirement is the real stimulus. You build this big volume wave, the body realizes that it must adapt but can't catch up and shifts into overdrive, at this point you slash the volume down to allow recovery for a period.
EDIT: The program I have been suggesting is a modified version of the famous 5x5 workout originally drawn up by Bill Starr - arguably one of the best strength coaches ever and the modifications were done by another of the US's current best strength coaches. The Bill Starr workout has had the famous 5x5 name for decades now. Walk into any serious strength complex in the country and say "5x5" and you will hear "Bill Starr". I guess when they named the program on the first page, they didn't realize this (like calling a local race the Indy 500 - the name is taken). There are no similarities beyond a few exercises using a 5x5 rep scheme. The Bill Starr/GS182 one is a dual factor program similar to what is used all over the world. The one described in the larger portion of this thread is a traditional BBing program (single factor supercompensation based) with a 3 day split and the compound lifts using the 5 sets of 5 reps protocol.
But yeah, the key is in scaling the weights up systematically until you are matching or exceeding records in weeks 3/4 and 8/9. Your 1x5 (or 1x3) day is a separate weight progression from your 5x5 (or 3x3) days. The exercise is the same but target weight for the single set workout is higher for pretty obvious reasons.
In addition, during the volume 5x5/1x5 phase the 5x5 workouts are done with a constant target set weight which scales each week while the 1x5 day is a pyramid of 5 sets culminating in the target heavy set of 5. You absolutely must get the volume in this phase so if that means doing some light sets that's okay. Once in the 3x3/1x3 the important factor is the weight progression. Keep pushing it up. You can cut volume or take extra days of rest as needed (and I'm beginning to think allowing choice for someone new to this is a bad idea because there's too many other factors new guys have to contend with - there's a 2 day deloading program also).
Basically in the first phase you have relatively high volume and are scaling intensity up (% of 1RM). In the second phase, volume is slashed but intensity is still scaling up. The total work output requirement is the real stimulus. You build this big volume wave, the body realizes that it must adapt but can't catch up and shifts into overdrive, at this point you slash the volume down to allow recovery for a period.
EDIT: The program I have been suggesting is a modified version of the famous 5x5 workout originally drawn up by Bill Starr - arguably one of the best strength coaches ever and the modifications were done by another of the US's current best strength coaches. The Bill Starr workout has had the famous 5x5 name for decades now. Walk into any serious strength complex in the country and say "5x5" and you will hear "Bill Starr". I guess when they named the program on the first page, they didn't realize this (like calling a local race the Indy 500 - the name is taken). There are no similarities beyond a few exercises using a 5x5 rep scheme. The Bill Starr/GS182 one is a dual factor program similar to what is used all over the world. The one described in the larger portion of this thread is a traditional BBing program (single factor supercompensation based) with a 3 day split and the compound lifts using the 5 sets of 5 reps protocol.
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The problem with the Bill Starr 5x5 (not the one that this thread is the topic of) is that it's really hard not to grow on it - which makes it ideal for BBing purposes. You'll get super strong but if you want to keep weight off it can be very hard. The last time I used it I needed to slash my diet and I was still putting on weight (I limit myself to the 240 range). If you are restricted by a weight class and only squeeze in by a small margin - you should avoid it. That said, if you can tolerate some gains but your interest is primarily strength then you'll be fine but if you can't afford to gain any weight you'll end up on a helaciously restricted diet.
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ghettostudmuffin
New member
So for a guy like me who's primarily interested in strength and size (maybe compete in powerlifting in future) with no weight limits, then the modified 5x5 with the 3 day split and volume and intensity phases is the one I want to use then right?
Which one was the bodbybuilding one?
Thanks for answering my questions. I plotted out 3 cycles and now I get how it works after seeing it written down with the weights used from cycle to cycle.
For growth, strength and long-term use, do you think that your hybrid of Bill Starr's original 5x5 is better? I keep hearing how his original is great, but it sounds like your version implementing some of the things Johnsmith said is somewhat superior.
Thanks again man, you're an asset to this board.
Which one was the bodbybuilding one?
Thanks for answering my questions. I plotted out 3 cycles and now I get how it works after seeing it written down with the weights used from cycle to cycle.
For growth, strength and long-term use, do you think that your hybrid of Bill Starr's original 5x5 is better? I keep hearing how his original is great, but it sounds like your version implementing some of the things Johnsmith said is somewhat superior.
Thanks again man, you're an asset to this board.
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