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coolcolj
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Found this in teh Ring Archive s- some of you will find this useful - I did 
Dave Caster
10:11 PST, 4/4/2000
Here are some interesting snatch & jerk insights I have received from my previously-mentioned advisor. The information starts out very basic, but develops as the post goes on. Check it out, I think it will help. By the way-the best article I have ever read on the snatch subject was done by Dr. Klaus Bartonietz and I believe it appeared in the 6/96 Strength & Conditioning periodical. In his biomechanical analysis of the snatch, he shows (among other things) the way different style snatches affect ground reaction forces and the coordination (or separation) of efforts between the various joints when using various snatch styles. In a nutshell, it's pretty apparent why throwers opt for power snatches from a hang or off blocks rather than for the classical squat snatches-at least, if they want the lift to positively affect the throw. Read and enjoy.
SOME OLYMPIC LIFT VARIANT BASICS FOR THE SHOTPUTTER
JERK FORM CONSIDERATIONS
For the thrower, I think that the grip used for the power clean is usually OK for the jerk. A lot depends on the flexibility of the wrists, elbows, and shoulders along with the ratio of the forearm length to upper arm length (sound familiar?).
A good way to find the power clean/jerk grip is to have the athlete stand in a position above the bar in her usual stance (about shoulder width),close her eyes, arch the back, and lower the hips to the point where she grabs the bar. Do this a couple of times, measure the distance between the index fingers, and you should have a good basic starting point for the grip. I would use this same distance between index fingers as the jerk/push press distance (grip).
You may need to fine tune this according to comfort. The thumbs should be close to the top of the shoulders for the JERK for most of us. The elbows should be lifted up and slightly out. (The PUSH PRESS grip may need to be a little wider to drop the elbows a bit and the bar will be a little lower on the chest.)
If the lifter has long forearms, the bar is usually on top of the shoulders with the elbows high. If the forearms are short (relative to the length of the upper arm) the elbows may be lower. Some OL guys will widen their grip for the jerk after the clean by sliding their hands out , to get more tricep drive and to shorten the bar path to extension. Some (like myself) have to jerk the bar with it sitting on their fingertips with the hands fully extended due to poor mechanical design and flexibility. This drove home the point that the jerks are really LEG exercises.
If you want some tricep work, widen the grip a couple of inches, lower the elbows for some leverage, and convert this exercise to the push press. I do not have much press experience as the Olympic Press was phased out in '72 and I was just getting started lifting then. What went from a strict upper body lift evolved into what we now call the Push Press, which was impossible to officiate, but still a good training tool. Be very careful of the "layback" on the press-it is easy to lean backwards during lockout-and hard on the back. Stay upright and tall.
A little trial and error will come up with the right grips-which will change with strength, technique, maturity, speed, and flexibility. Sometimes just closing the eyes and stepping into the bar in the rack will give a good comfortable starting grip. NEVER round the back, always stand tall with the chest out, arch and lock the lumber spine, and drive the bar straight up over head. Lower the bar straight over the shoulders and bend the knees to absorb the downward force. NEVER round over! The action is from the hips, knees and ankles. The good technician will "feel the knees working" with little other concern with a few basic skills in the toolbox.
IMPORTANT: The shoulders, hips, and ankles should be in a straight vertical line!!
VARIATION: JERKING FROM A SPLIT
I never could do a very good snatch or clean split. I always did a power or squat position. I think the training value from these exercises lies with the knee,hip,and ankle power. How you land in the split snatch and the shot are different. Being able to split jerk is good, especially for stability. Another good variation of the jerk is jerking FROM the split position into extension ...this really works the front (left) leg-the power to ground concept.
The lift starts and finishes from the split position with no foot movement. The left (front) foot is flat on the ground and forward. The right (back) foot is on the toes for balance. The drive is really from the left leg with the right leg just used for balance. The athlete dips quickly, drives the bar up, and lowers it all while in the split position. There is really no horizontal movement of the feet. Good for the "power to ground", left leg, and balance training.
SNATCH FORM CONSIDERATIONS
GRIP WIDTH
Now to the snatch grip.....I believe that you are correct that the narrower grips may be used from the floor, depending on arm length and ankle flexibility, and maintaining the shoulders over the bar and arching the back. If you have really long arms and excellent ankle flexibility, you can get into a great mechanical position off the floor. If you use a Narrow grip you have to remember that the bar may move farther forward ,moving the center of gravity forward,and the bar path may not be as straight. It can sometimes look like a reverse overhead power curl. To pull the bar with good leverage and safety, it needs to be in a straighter line. With the higher starting positions (blocks, hangs, etc) I find a easier to get into a little wider grip (maybe an inch or 2 for each hand)-which improves leverage, keeps the bar close to the body (eliminates the rotation or "swing"), and keeps the bar in a pretty straight line (altho the graphs always show some horizontal displacement, not a true vertical path).
My grip off the floor is about 40"; my grip off the knee high blocks is about 42". From the angles calculated, it should be a little wider for a straighter pull. My fingertip to fingertip wingspan is 71",same as my height. This is off the top of my head, but I believe that the forearms should be about 60 deg to the bar. I did work this out with a tape measure& protractor, and this is about right. This is close to your full extension with the traps when you give that last bit of energy to the bar.
The wider grip may cause some grip problems for those with small hands. I will use straps on heavier days for bar control. I just found another calculation for the snatch grip: Measure the distance from the right shoulder tip to the left knuckles (making a closed left fist) with the left arm parallel to the floor . For me this is 42". A lot of the grips will be trial and error and may change with growth, strength and technical improvements. If I had to pick one grip and one bar height for myself, I get the most out of the 42" grip, with the bar starting just above the knees. This is really a comfortable position.My heels are just about shoulder width. I will dig in the Vault and if I find anything else useful,I will send it your way. It does take a little time and patience to fine tune this stuff, but it is a good addition to the program and time well spent in the long run.
SNATCH TRAJECTORY
I read some rather vague posts about the bar banging on the thighs in the snatch. The most common reason that the bar bounces off the thighs is that the shoulders are BEHIND the bar during the pull. The shoulders should always be just OVER the bar so that the arms are vertical to the floor. That way the body moves to keep the bar in a straight line with minimal horizontal deviation. (There is obviously some hor. displacement-even more if you are doing a classic squat snatch).
In photos of the elite guys pulling a max weight they appear to be pulling back into extension, but do not bang the bar on the thighs-it just slides up.
PULLING OFF THE HEELS
Pulling off the heels is a technique used by elite Bulgarians to maximaize floor contact and to rapidly drop UNDER the bar to catch it rather than jump as many of the Russians did. Pulling off the heels is not very good for the thrower, in my opinion. The actual foot motion on the force plate is a complex shift from back to side to front as the center of gravity changes during the lift.
I am a firm believer that there is a "throwers'/jumpers'" power snatch and clean that is different from the competitive lifts. This requires max use of the ankles and feet into extension. I had seen an article recently where the jumpers were being criticized for lack of foot and ankle training because of changes in footwear. Different shoes and heels, etc had different activation of these muscles and were not being trained well. Many of the new jumping shoes are stiffer to give back
more force (power to ground) and you needed foot power to use the shoes well.
SNATCH GRIP HIGH PULLS
I think that Snatch pulls are a good early/GPP exercise but would need to used carefully, esp near big meets. I really overtrained on SnHP's while in college, but really did not run into trouble with tired legs with the power snatch. The SnHP's really can cook the legs and back. I noted that
Bartonietz had figures on the Squat Snatch vs the SnHP, the HP generated more power.
However, does the exercise that generates the most power give the best training effect?
We generally used triples at 120% of our power snatch (or about 10% more than the squat snatch. I still would like the knee high position the best, but the floor position can give tremendous back and hip work-use early season carefully. It would be hard to squat very much or throw alot if you use alot of HP's. If I remember, Andy B. has a bad wrist and cannot turn over the bar. But a 400 lb SnHP to upper chest is impressive. I would treat HP's like heavy squats done at high speed-just maybe 3 heavy sets. I get more of a charge from the power snatch-something about the higher bar speed.
POWER CLEANING
Yes, I use multiple block heights for the power clean. You can do clean pulls with the similar format as the snatch. I usually do not do much with the power clean near meet time as it can
really wear down the low back and make throwing positions difficult. I have mostly used it in the fall, although a light power clean&push press is a good early meet season exercise. It is nice to clean&jerk a weight and drop it (bumper plates).
POWER CLEAN GRIP
My power clean grip is about 24", which I can usually jerk out of fairly well.Using a grip of 24 " for the snatch will probably make you pull the bar in a more curved path, not a big deal unless you get a sore back or use too heavy weights. You still would like to get a nice vertical bar path
into lockout. I think for most of us that if the bar starts on the floor, you may need to narrow the grip a few inches. If you start from the knees, you can widen the grip, which will shorten the length of the bar path ,make it straighter and allow more weight to be lifted quickly-lots of horsepower. You may need to use a little wider foot stance when pulling off the floor
due to individual differences in ankle flexibility, thigh length, arm length, etc. I usually have a bit narrower stance and wider grip when pulling off the block.
SNATCHING AND JERKING OVER CLEANING
I really think that the power cleans are over rated, just easier to teach for the strength coaches. I would still put my money on the snatch and jerk variations. Lots of throwers can muscle up big power cleans but are sloppy snatchers and have a hard time doing a sharp power jerk. I think there is a good reason the Germans had the snatch as one of their main general wt
exercises, not the clean. It is easy to get lazy on the high pulls-much harder to get lazy on the
snatch and jerk.
Making each of these lifts ballistic with good bar speed is the key. Sometimes people will get sloppy on the high pulls as well. I have a gizmo in the basement where I pull the bar to a predetermined height for the snatch and clean pulls. It is 2 chains hanging from a water pipe with a wood stick hung between the chains. I pull either the snatch grip or clean grip pulls until it hits the stick with the end of the bar. I will have to check the measurements for the recommended heights for you. For me it is the the belt line (clean) and mid chest (snatch). If I cannot hit the stick (optimal height), I reduce the weight. I assume I am not moving the bar fast enough to get enough height.
VARIATION: SNATCH/CLEAN GRIP JUMPS
There are creative versions of the snatch and clean where you start in an upright position, slightly lower the bar (dip) and quickly jump and pull the bar. Jumpers will do this with the power snatch from the hip height position to tap into the RMA/stretch reflex. Pretty easy on the low back as
you are always in the upright position. Takes good leg speed!
SNATCH AND JERK TRAINING PROTOCOLS
SOME GENERAL GUIDELINES FOR O/Ls:
Power snatch and clean: 90% of squat snatch or clean
High Pull: 110-120% of squat snatch and clean
Jerk dip should be 10% of height
High Pulls:
Clean needs to be pulled to 60% of ht
Snatch needs to be pulled to 75% of ht
These are reasonable targets for high pulls-if actually trying to hit a certain goal in terms of vertical displacement.
A typical OL workout might be squat snatches at a certain weight, followed by high pulls for triples at 110% of the squat snatch. For throwers, we would do power snatches at a certain weight, followed by high pulls at 110% of power snatch for 2-3 reps. (I think that the faster pulls at lighter weights caused less damage produced more power than the heavier ones.) I found that I could tolerate about 10% more high pull weight from the knee high block than I could from the floor.
The elite OL guys can Squat snatch or clean about 15% more than power snatch or clean-due to their rapid descent under the bar.
We could usually spit jerk about 110% of our power jerks. There is also a Jerk Drive exercise that is a little hard on the shoulders where you handle about another 10% above split jerk and dip, drive, and push the bar to eye level. I prefer the front jump with the harness now for safety.
When I max, even now, I can pw snatch almost exactly 78% of my pw clean. The usual range is 75-80% depending on speed/strength ratios.
I can usually power jerk about 5% more than my pw clean when in shape.
SNATCH TRAINING THROUGH THE YEAR
My experience with the SNATCHES is that they can be a significantly different training stimulus by changing the height of the bar off the floor. Using a block of different dimensions, I change the exercise on a regular basis (every 3-4 wks) by using a different block height.
During the GPP phase, I tend to use lower blocks and the floor as starting heights. As the season nears, I use higher positions. My favorite near peaking time is starting the bar just above my kneecap. This gets me into a knee angle of about 160 deg and gets you excellent quad, hip, and ankle stimulation. You also get the idea of "snapping" the bar in microseconds, similar to the quick strike on the shot in the double support phase. I have kept years of records and when my power snatch off the high blocks is good, my throws also also are usually the best of the year.
Another advantage of the high bar position is the fact that it takes some of the stress off the low back, which is a big plus when you are throwing alot using the glide-esp. using the trunk incline /sidebend/rotation techniques. I usually use straps off the blocks so as to not drop the bar (small hand problem). Start low positions early in the year to help condition the hips and low back and gradually move to the higher positions. In the Zatsiorsky text he has a power output graph of a high pull, most of the force is generated when the bar is between the knees and hips. Even adding a 2x6 under the blocks really changes the feel of the exercise-new stimulus.
I have not found the same relationship with the clean, however.
JERK TRAINING THROUGH THE YEAR
The power JERKS are another similar issue. When my power jerk off the rack is at max for the year I usually have my best throws, also. The force plate studies indicate that this may be the most powerful lift of all (esp the behind the neck). Interestingly, one of the key factors in jerk success is strength in the thoracic spine so that you do not round over-you must be vertical to the floor. The most important factor is the RMA (Reversible Muscle Action)-the guy who most rapidly converts from the eccentric phase to the concentric phase in the jerk leg action, drives the bar the highest. Never pause on the bottom of any jerk during the dip!! Reverse the bar path as fast as you can. This is likely the real value of the exercise.
I do fewer reps and sets as there is an eccentric phase and catching the bar on triples with heavier weights can be tiring and represent an injury risk. I would use a similar format in the rep/set/volume/ scheme for the year. Again, I think there is HUGE value in submax sets, multiple sets, moderate weights, exercise variations. As you get nearer the season, I would cut down on the weight of your favorite squats-go for lighter weight and moderate volume-and phase in more
75-80% singles of a favorite snatch variation or jerk. Both will do a good job.
VOLUME
The next question is"how much to do?" Most of the studies say that 2-3 reps per set is enough for the OL variants. One of the texts notes that many of the OL guys average 2 reps per set-this is probably about right-as fatigue esp in the back -can turn even the best lifter into a sloppy technician at risk for injury.
Old training zones of 2-3 reps in the 75-90% zone is probably too heavy for the woman, master, and drug free folks. I would think that 55-75% would be about right using mostly triples in the 50-60% range and doubles in the 55-65% range and singles in the 70-80% range. I saw a study of power output in the power snatch and max power was in the 80% range. We did lots of power snatches and jerks for MULTIPLE SINGLES around 75-80% with good results during the peak season time, along with multiple triples in the 50-60% zone for volume stimulation.
PRE-SEASON CYCLING:
50-60% RANGE: TRIPLES
55-65% RANGE: DOUBLES
70-80% RANGE: SINGLES
PEAK TIME CYCLING:
POWER SNATCHES & JERKS: 75-80%, MULTIPLE SINGLES-for maximum power
POWER SNATCHES & JERKS: 50-60%, MULTIPLE TRIPLES-for volume stimulation
BIG MEET TIME:
POWER SNATCHES & JERKS: 50-60%, 2-3 REPS PER SET
I do think that you need to keep some volume in season with light reps in the OL's and favorite squats with triples, etc in the lower intensity. Since there is little eccentric phase motion in the snatch-you may be able to handle the higher weights well without the terrible
stiffness that the squats can inflict. During the last few weeks of the season (BIG MEET TIME), 2-3 reps in the 50-60% range should be adequate for the well trained and conditioned thrower, in my opinion.
The total volume is always a question. I have fooled around with the Prilepin numbers and think that they are headed in the right direction, but too heavy for the drug free guys. I just slide the intensity %'s down a line or two on the volume chart and this works better. There is really an art to the adjustment of training during the season. Never be afraid to back off the training load if she is sore, slow or the weights feel heavy that day.
Listen to your body...less may be good on certain days and recharge the system. The most sensitive indicator of overtraining is the insight of a bright coach who knows his athlete is overworked (short term) or overtrained (long term) from the way that he or she behaves and responds. The East Germans did a neuro study looking at singles and reps. They felt
that the intermuscular and intramuscular coordination required some single for stimulation for ballistic event success (throws and lifts). I think there is a real benefit of multiple singles with moderate weights to keep the volume adequate to stimulate the neuromuscular system. One will need to change that stimulus on a regular basis as we have discussed so many times.
EXERCISE ROTATION / INTEGRATION
Here is also something else I have found. I rarely ever totally abandon an exercise. I have found that if I stop snatching for 4 weeks, I feel sloppy and get sore, esp in the traps, when I phase it in again, esp during the season when you do not want all those distracting twinges. Even a few
really light sets just for a general warm-up before lifting or throwing will help alot, keep you conditioned and maintain the "feel" for the lift. I certainly would alternate the emphasis from snatches, jerks, etc on a regular basis, but a few light sets here and there weekly will maintain that skill and conditioning that you have worked so hard to develop. I think that you will need to watch the volume and intensity closely in season-selecting a few favorite lifts to zero in on.
If you get stronger on one exercise, it will really change the technique and feel of all the others in your program. Similar to integrating the power training with the skill training in the shot.
The power clean and jerk is another option, allowing you to drop the bar on the floor. Be
really careful if she goes heavier in the jerks, catches the bar, and returns it to the rack. An in season muscle strain is not what you need. It is really hard to get hurt snatching even for the young lifter. Learn the technique right from the start and it is money in the bank.
I think that the Westside format has some great ideas with % reps and exercise variation, but I agree that the PL guys are really preparing for a whole different activity and goals. It is obvious that creativity (esp in the US throwing community) is underutilized and these guys have come up with some amazing variations on common exercises to increase their lifts. If you find a new hammer, throw it in the toolbox, you never know when you may need to pound a big nail.
PRE-MEET LIFTING
Pre meet lifting is ineresting and I have done some. Some of the best practice marks with the shot have come after heavy Pw Snatches-within an hour. Probably something to with motor unit recruitment and intra/intermuscular coordination. I have had similar experience with the pw jerk. A pw snatch or jerk would be good up to 80% for us mortals-just for stimulation.
LIFT CYCLING PRIOR TO BIG MEETS
In my best seasons (the last month) I did multiple pw snatch singles at around 80% and multiple squat /bench/db sets of 3 at around 60%. I found that it was easy to maintain power and REALLY work on timing and tech with the multi-weight shots. The coordination really improved. I found out that 2 hard weight workouts in one week interfered with coordination. But using carefully selected lifts one could work around this(with some OT risk).
We generally lifted heavier 80+% singles on OL variants on Sun after meets and did multiple 3's at 50-60% later in the week. I really think that the light lifting has great value. I would guess that Andy B does his high pulls at high speed and can recover in time for the meets. He may be one of those guys who would have incredible power snatch & cleans with concentrated training and good orthopedic health.
HEAVY LIFTING IN SEASON-THE PITTFALLS
I totally agree with you about some of the programs we have seen discussed. Multiple studies have shown the first thing to deteriorate with both central and peripheral fatigue is coordination. How you could assimilate anything useful skill wise after the "sets of death" workout is beyond me.I think this is a recipe for fatigue, OT, and timing/technique problems that are hard to solve once they are hammered into the CNS. From the EMG data I have seen on the squat, the hamstrings are only really activated to a high level when moving at a high speed. The reduction in squat weight, done at a higher speed, may do less damage to the quads and activate the hamstrings (and hips). The tightness after a heavy squat workout is all too familiar to me. All of you have learned this the hard way. Sometimes people like to repeat history, make the same OT mistakes, and pay the technical and performance price on meet day.
I think that the young thrower needs to throw fresh to assimilate the skills perfectly. Once they are imprinted in the nervous system, you can use different mixes of lifts, throws, etc to jumpstart progress and break thru plateaus. With some more experience, you may be able to have her do an OL variant work out, and then head to the ring.
I also try to follow the Bompa guidelines on exercises. I keep a chart on the wall with his recommendations to remind me to plan carefully. I do think that they are pretty close for all levels of athletes.
I would use your format, monitor progress, watch your OT, and always be ready to adapt with exercise variations and shot wt changes. I do believe you are right on the money with the heavy shot being a special exercise that should be included. Throwing certainly requires recovery issues for the drug free athletes. The young thrower will likely need a lot of experience with the comp wt shot to ingrain accurate motor patterns-do it right the first time, it is much easier.
TRAINING THE LOWER BACK FOR THE THROWER
Many putters have cooked their low backs in-season and sacrificed many feet on meet day.
The OL guys did lots of HP's-mostly the clean HP's, which really hit the low back, hips, and hams. These could be helpful in the early GPP season, but murder during a higher throwing volume or meet time. I saw a study where the snatch HP's were actually less helpful as the real goal was the low back and hip work and correct tech off the floor-so more time was spent
on Clean HP's to attack the weak links.
The back can be easily over worked if you are doing a good volume of pull variants and strict squats. Toss in some multi-joint power squat work and you have a huge load for the thrower.
I would be VERY careful with any DL or Good Morning work. I like the Rev Hyper Ext because of the unique hamstring action. Too much back work can kill a season or wreck the tech. I would be VERY careful about adding any special back work now as the pulls & variants can give you great results with multiple benefits, as well as the different squats. The jerk is interestingly very dependent on back strength for success-which seems unusual because it is done perpendicular to the floor.You need the spine of steel.
The structural stresses on the low back and its importance in the throws are things that the OL guys do not worry about, except as they apply to pulls off the floor. I think that we have to adapt and modify their programs and not just copy them-I tried to copy them and really OT'd
several times.
In short, I would stick to the work out plan, be VERY cautious about any extra lowback work, and monitor training. The low back is the second muscle group (after the grip) to give out in a training session on OL pull variants. It will turn the power snatch into a reverse grip overhead power
curl.
I will send you some info on the 4 stage pull which is a good general exercise for the fall/early GPP that is a combination of DL and HP actions. Or you can make up your own 4 or 3 stage pull with a similar format. (You can earn points for creativity.) Mark Cameron (first 110kg OLer to C&J over 500 lbs.) used this from a Bulgarian program in 1976. Very tough but lots of
good hip,knee, and ankle work.
4-STAGE PULL
This is a combination lift of 4 movements that make up ONE rep:
1. DL from floor to knee height, return bar to floor
2. DL from floor to hip height, return bar to knee height
3. High pull from knee height to full extension, return bar to floor
4. High pull from floor to full extension
Usually 3 reps per set is enough. This is a killer for fall workouts for back, hip, knee workouts. I would not do this more than once per week for 4 weeks in early fall for conditioning and to reinforce proper pull tech. You can come up with your own variations adding Pow Snatch or Clean instead, etc.
Somehow this exercise got lost in the last 25 years-we did it alot-and got replaced by the "Romanian DL"-which is not nearly as challenging as the 4-stage.
The weights need not be heavy for an excellent workout.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Caster
10:11 PST, 4/4/2000
Here are some interesting snatch & jerk insights I have received from my previously-mentioned advisor. The information starts out very basic, but develops as the post goes on. Check it out, I think it will help. By the way-the best article I have ever read on the snatch subject was done by Dr. Klaus Bartonietz and I believe it appeared in the 6/96 Strength & Conditioning periodical. In his biomechanical analysis of the snatch, he shows (among other things) the way different style snatches affect ground reaction forces and the coordination (or separation) of efforts between the various joints when using various snatch styles. In a nutshell, it's pretty apparent why throwers opt for power snatches from a hang or off blocks rather than for the classical squat snatches-at least, if they want the lift to positively affect the throw. Read and enjoy.
SOME OLYMPIC LIFT VARIANT BASICS FOR THE SHOTPUTTER
JERK FORM CONSIDERATIONS
For the thrower, I think that the grip used for the power clean is usually OK for the jerk. A lot depends on the flexibility of the wrists, elbows, and shoulders along with the ratio of the forearm length to upper arm length (sound familiar?).
A good way to find the power clean/jerk grip is to have the athlete stand in a position above the bar in her usual stance (about shoulder width),close her eyes, arch the back, and lower the hips to the point where she grabs the bar. Do this a couple of times, measure the distance between the index fingers, and you should have a good basic starting point for the grip. I would use this same distance between index fingers as the jerk/push press distance (grip).
You may need to fine tune this according to comfort. The thumbs should be close to the top of the shoulders for the JERK for most of us. The elbows should be lifted up and slightly out. (The PUSH PRESS grip may need to be a little wider to drop the elbows a bit and the bar will be a little lower on the chest.)
If the lifter has long forearms, the bar is usually on top of the shoulders with the elbows high. If the forearms are short (relative to the length of the upper arm) the elbows may be lower. Some OL guys will widen their grip for the jerk after the clean by sliding their hands out , to get more tricep drive and to shorten the bar path to extension. Some (like myself) have to jerk the bar with it sitting on their fingertips with the hands fully extended due to poor mechanical design and flexibility. This drove home the point that the jerks are really LEG exercises.
If you want some tricep work, widen the grip a couple of inches, lower the elbows for some leverage, and convert this exercise to the push press. I do not have much press experience as the Olympic Press was phased out in '72 and I was just getting started lifting then. What went from a strict upper body lift evolved into what we now call the Push Press, which was impossible to officiate, but still a good training tool. Be very careful of the "layback" on the press-it is easy to lean backwards during lockout-and hard on the back. Stay upright and tall.
A little trial and error will come up with the right grips-which will change with strength, technique, maturity, speed, and flexibility. Sometimes just closing the eyes and stepping into the bar in the rack will give a good comfortable starting grip. NEVER round the back, always stand tall with the chest out, arch and lock the lumber spine, and drive the bar straight up over head. Lower the bar straight over the shoulders and bend the knees to absorb the downward force. NEVER round over! The action is from the hips, knees and ankles. The good technician will "feel the knees working" with little other concern with a few basic skills in the toolbox.
IMPORTANT: The shoulders, hips, and ankles should be in a straight vertical line!!
VARIATION: JERKING FROM A SPLIT
I never could do a very good snatch or clean split. I always did a power or squat position. I think the training value from these exercises lies with the knee,hip,and ankle power. How you land in the split snatch and the shot are different. Being able to split jerk is good, especially for stability. Another good variation of the jerk is jerking FROM the split position into extension ...this really works the front (left) leg-the power to ground concept.
The lift starts and finishes from the split position with no foot movement. The left (front) foot is flat on the ground and forward. The right (back) foot is on the toes for balance. The drive is really from the left leg with the right leg just used for balance. The athlete dips quickly, drives the bar up, and lowers it all while in the split position. There is really no horizontal movement of the feet. Good for the "power to ground", left leg, and balance training.
SNATCH FORM CONSIDERATIONS
GRIP WIDTH
Now to the snatch grip.....I believe that you are correct that the narrower grips may be used from the floor, depending on arm length and ankle flexibility, and maintaining the shoulders over the bar and arching the back. If you have really long arms and excellent ankle flexibility, you can get into a great mechanical position off the floor. If you use a Narrow grip you have to remember that the bar may move farther forward ,moving the center of gravity forward,and the bar path may not be as straight. It can sometimes look like a reverse overhead power curl. To pull the bar with good leverage and safety, it needs to be in a straighter line. With the higher starting positions (blocks, hangs, etc) I find a easier to get into a little wider grip (maybe an inch or 2 for each hand)-which improves leverage, keeps the bar close to the body (eliminates the rotation or "swing"), and keeps the bar in a pretty straight line (altho the graphs always show some horizontal displacement, not a true vertical path).
My grip off the floor is about 40"; my grip off the knee high blocks is about 42". From the angles calculated, it should be a little wider for a straighter pull. My fingertip to fingertip wingspan is 71",same as my height. This is off the top of my head, but I believe that the forearms should be about 60 deg to the bar. I did work this out with a tape measure& protractor, and this is about right. This is close to your full extension with the traps when you give that last bit of energy to the bar.
The wider grip may cause some grip problems for those with small hands. I will use straps on heavier days for bar control. I just found another calculation for the snatch grip: Measure the distance from the right shoulder tip to the left knuckles (making a closed left fist) with the left arm parallel to the floor . For me this is 42". A lot of the grips will be trial and error and may change with growth, strength and technical improvements. If I had to pick one grip and one bar height for myself, I get the most out of the 42" grip, with the bar starting just above the knees. This is really a comfortable position.My heels are just about shoulder width. I will dig in the Vault and if I find anything else useful,I will send it your way. It does take a little time and patience to fine tune this stuff, but it is a good addition to the program and time well spent in the long run.
SNATCH TRAJECTORY
I read some rather vague posts about the bar banging on the thighs in the snatch. The most common reason that the bar bounces off the thighs is that the shoulders are BEHIND the bar during the pull. The shoulders should always be just OVER the bar so that the arms are vertical to the floor. That way the body moves to keep the bar in a straight line with minimal horizontal deviation. (There is obviously some hor. displacement-even more if you are doing a classic squat snatch).
In photos of the elite guys pulling a max weight they appear to be pulling back into extension, but do not bang the bar on the thighs-it just slides up.
PULLING OFF THE HEELS
Pulling off the heels is a technique used by elite Bulgarians to maximaize floor contact and to rapidly drop UNDER the bar to catch it rather than jump as many of the Russians did. Pulling off the heels is not very good for the thrower, in my opinion. The actual foot motion on the force plate is a complex shift from back to side to front as the center of gravity changes during the lift.
I am a firm believer that there is a "throwers'/jumpers'" power snatch and clean that is different from the competitive lifts. This requires max use of the ankles and feet into extension. I had seen an article recently where the jumpers were being criticized for lack of foot and ankle training because of changes in footwear. Different shoes and heels, etc had different activation of these muscles and were not being trained well. Many of the new jumping shoes are stiffer to give back
more force (power to ground) and you needed foot power to use the shoes well.
SNATCH GRIP HIGH PULLS
I think that Snatch pulls are a good early/GPP exercise but would need to used carefully, esp near big meets. I really overtrained on SnHP's while in college, but really did not run into trouble with tired legs with the power snatch. The SnHP's really can cook the legs and back. I noted that
Bartonietz had figures on the Squat Snatch vs the SnHP, the HP generated more power.
However, does the exercise that generates the most power give the best training effect?
We generally used triples at 120% of our power snatch (or about 10% more than the squat snatch. I still would like the knee high position the best, but the floor position can give tremendous back and hip work-use early season carefully. It would be hard to squat very much or throw alot if you use alot of HP's. If I remember, Andy B. has a bad wrist and cannot turn over the bar. But a 400 lb SnHP to upper chest is impressive. I would treat HP's like heavy squats done at high speed-just maybe 3 heavy sets. I get more of a charge from the power snatch-something about the higher bar speed.
POWER CLEANING
Yes, I use multiple block heights for the power clean. You can do clean pulls with the similar format as the snatch. I usually do not do much with the power clean near meet time as it can
really wear down the low back and make throwing positions difficult. I have mostly used it in the fall, although a light power clean&push press is a good early meet season exercise. It is nice to clean&jerk a weight and drop it (bumper plates).
POWER CLEAN GRIP
My power clean grip is about 24", which I can usually jerk out of fairly well.Using a grip of 24 " for the snatch will probably make you pull the bar in a more curved path, not a big deal unless you get a sore back or use too heavy weights. You still would like to get a nice vertical bar path
into lockout. I think for most of us that if the bar starts on the floor, you may need to narrow the grip a few inches. If you start from the knees, you can widen the grip, which will shorten the length of the bar path ,make it straighter and allow more weight to be lifted quickly-lots of horsepower. You may need to use a little wider foot stance when pulling off the floor
due to individual differences in ankle flexibility, thigh length, arm length, etc. I usually have a bit narrower stance and wider grip when pulling off the block.
SNATCHING AND JERKING OVER CLEANING
I really think that the power cleans are over rated, just easier to teach for the strength coaches. I would still put my money on the snatch and jerk variations. Lots of throwers can muscle up big power cleans but are sloppy snatchers and have a hard time doing a sharp power jerk. I think there is a good reason the Germans had the snatch as one of their main general wt
exercises, not the clean. It is easy to get lazy on the high pulls-much harder to get lazy on the
snatch and jerk.
Making each of these lifts ballistic with good bar speed is the key. Sometimes people will get sloppy on the high pulls as well. I have a gizmo in the basement where I pull the bar to a predetermined height for the snatch and clean pulls. It is 2 chains hanging from a water pipe with a wood stick hung between the chains. I pull either the snatch grip or clean grip pulls until it hits the stick with the end of the bar. I will have to check the measurements for the recommended heights for you. For me it is the the belt line (clean) and mid chest (snatch). If I cannot hit the stick (optimal height), I reduce the weight. I assume I am not moving the bar fast enough to get enough height.
VARIATION: SNATCH/CLEAN GRIP JUMPS
There are creative versions of the snatch and clean where you start in an upright position, slightly lower the bar (dip) and quickly jump and pull the bar. Jumpers will do this with the power snatch from the hip height position to tap into the RMA/stretch reflex. Pretty easy on the low back as
you are always in the upright position. Takes good leg speed!
SNATCH AND JERK TRAINING PROTOCOLS
SOME GENERAL GUIDELINES FOR O/Ls:
Power snatch and clean: 90% of squat snatch or clean
High Pull: 110-120% of squat snatch and clean
Jerk dip should be 10% of height
High Pulls:
Clean needs to be pulled to 60% of ht
Snatch needs to be pulled to 75% of ht
These are reasonable targets for high pulls-if actually trying to hit a certain goal in terms of vertical displacement.
A typical OL workout might be squat snatches at a certain weight, followed by high pulls for triples at 110% of the squat snatch. For throwers, we would do power snatches at a certain weight, followed by high pulls at 110% of power snatch for 2-3 reps. (I think that the faster pulls at lighter weights caused less damage produced more power than the heavier ones.) I found that I could tolerate about 10% more high pull weight from the knee high block than I could from the floor.
The elite OL guys can Squat snatch or clean about 15% more than power snatch or clean-due to their rapid descent under the bar.
We could usually spit jerk about 110% of our power jerks. There is also a Jerk Drive exercise that is a little hard on the shoulders where you handle about another 10% above split jerk and dip, drive, and push the bar to eye level. I prefer the front jump with the harness now for safety.
When I max, even now, I can pw snatch almost exactly 78% of my pw clean. The usual range is 75-80% depending on speed/strength ratios.
I can usually power jerk about 5% more than my pw clean when in shape.
SNATCH TRAINING THROUGH THE YEAR
My experience with the SNATCHES is that they can be a significantly different training stimulus by changing the height of the bar off the floor. Using a block of different dimensions, I change the exercise on a regular basis (every 3-4 wks) by using a different block height.
During the GPP phase, I tend to use lower blocks and the floor as starting heights. As the season nears, I use higher positions. My favorite near peaking time is starting the bar just above my kneecap. This gets me into a knee angle of about 160 deg and gets you excellent quad, hip, and ankle stimulation. You also get the idea of "snapping" the bar in microseconds, similar to the quick strike on the shot in the double support phase. I have kept years of records and when my power snatch off the high blocks is good, my throws also also are usually the best of the year.
Another advantage of the high bar position is the fact that it takes some of the stress off the low back, which is a big plus when you are throwing alot using the glide-esp. using the trunk incline /sidebend/rotation techniques. I usually use straps off the blocks so as to not drop the bar (small hand problem). Start low positions early in the year to help condition the hips and low back and gradually move to the higher positions. In the Zatsiorsky text he has a power output graph of a high pull, most of the force is generated when the bar is between the knees and hips. Even adding a 2x6 under the blocks really changes the feel of the exercise-new stimulus.
I have not found the same relationship with the clean, however.
JERK TRAINING THROUGH THE YEAR
The power JERKS are another similar issue. When my power jerk off the rack is at max for the year I usually have my best throws, also. The force plate studies indicate that this may be the most powerful lift of all (esp the behind the neck). Interestingly, one of the key factors in jerk success is strength in the thoracic spine so that you do not round over-you must be vertical to the floor. The most important factor is the RMA (Reversible Muscle Action)-the guy who most rapidly converts from the eccentric phase to the concentric phase in the jerk leg action, drives the bar the highest. Never pause on the bottom of any jerk during the dip!! Reverse the bar path as fast as you can. This is likely the real value of the exercise.
I do fewer reps and sets as there is an eccentric phase and catching the bar on triples with heavier weights can be tiring and represent an injury risk. I would use a similar format in the rep/set/volume/ scheme for the year. Again, I think there is HUGE value in submax sets, multiple sets, moderate weights, exercise variations. As you get nearer the season, I would cut down on the weight of your favorite squats-go for lighter weight and moderate volume-and phase in more
75-80% singles of a favorite snatch variation or jerk. Both will do a good job.
VOLUME
The next question is"how much to do?" Most of the studies say that 2-3 reps per set is enough for the OL variants. One of the texts notes that many of the OL guys average 2 reps per set-this is probably about right-as fatigue esp in the back -can turn even the best lifter into a sloppy technician at risk for injury.
Old training zones of 2-3 reps in the 75-90% zone is probably too heavy for the woman, master, and drug free folks. I would think that 55-75% would be about right using mostly triples in the 50-60% range and doubles in the 55-65% range and singles in the 70-80% range. I saw a study of power output in the power snatch and max power was in the 80% range. We did lots of power snatches and jerks for MULTIPLE SINGLES around 75-80% with good results during the peak season time, along with multiple triples in the 50-60% zone for volume stimulation.
PRE-SEASON CYCLING:
50-60% RANGE: TRIPLES
55-65% RANGE: DOUBLES
70-80% RANGE: SINGLES
PEAK TIME CYCLING:
POWER SNATCHES & JERKS: 75-80%, MULTIPLE SINGLES-for maximum power
POWER SNATCHES & JERKS: 50-60%, MULTIPLE TRIPLES-for volume stimulation
BIG MEET TIME:
POWER SNATCHES & JERKS: 50-60%, 2-3 REPS PER SET
I do think that you need to keep some volume in season with light reps in the OL's and favorite squats with triples, etc in the lower intensity. Since there is little eccentric phase motion in the snatch-you may be able to handle the higher weights well without the terrible
stiffness that the squats can inflict. During the last few weeks of the season (BIG MEET TIME), 2-3 reps in the 50-60% range should be adequate for the well trained and conditioned thrower, in my opinion.
The total volume is always a question. I have fooled around with the Prilepin numbers and think that they are headed in the right direction, but too heavy for the drug free guys. I just slide the intensity %'s down a line or two on the volume chart and this works better. There is really an art to the adjustment of training during the season. Never be afraid to back off the training load if she is sore, slow or the weights feel heavy that day.
Listen to your body...less may be good on certain days and recharge the system. The most sensitive indicator of overtraining is the insight of a bright coach who knows his athlete is overworked (short term) or overtrained (long term) from the way that he or she behaves and responds. The East Germans did a neuro study looking at singles and reps. They felt
that the intermuscular and intramuscular coordination required some single for stimulation for ballistic event success (throws and lifts). I think there is a real benefit of multiple singles with moderate weights to keep the volume adequate to stimulate the neuromuscular system. One will need to change that stimulus on a regular basis as we have discussed so many times.
EXERCISE ROTATION / INTEGRATION
Here is also something else I have found. I rarely ever totally abandon an exercise. I have found that if I stop snatching for 4 weeks, I feel sloppy and get sore, esp in the traps, when I phase it in again, esp during the season when you do not want all those distracting twinges. Even a few
really light sets just for a general warm-up before lifting or throwing will help alot, keep you conditioned and maintain the "feel" for the lift. I certainly would alternate the emphasis from snatches, jerks, etc on a regular basis, but a few light sets here and there weekly will maintain that skill and conditioning that you have worked so hard to develop. I think that you will need to watch the volume and intensity closely in season-selecting a few favorite lifts to zero in on.
If you get stronger on one exercise, it will really change the technique and feel of all the others in your program. Similar to integrating the power training with the skill training in the shot.
The power clean and jerk is another option, allowing you to drop the bar on the floor. Be
really careful if she goes heavier in the jerks, catches the bar, and returns it to the rack. An in season muscle strain is not what you need. It is really hard to get hurt snatching even for the young lifter. Learn the technique right from the start and it is money in the bank.
I think that the Westside format has some great ideas with % reps and exercise variation, but I agree that the PL guys are really preparing for a whole different activity and goals. It is obvious that creativity (esp in the US throwing community) is underutilized and these guys have come up with some amazing variations on common exercises to increase their lifts. If you find a new hammer, throw it in the toolbox, you never know when you may need to pound a big nail.
PRE-MEET LIFTING
Pre meet lifting is ineresting and I have done some. Some of the best practice marks with the shot have come after heavy Pw Snatches-within an hour. Probably something to with motor unit recruitment and intra/intermuscular coordination. I have had similar experience with the pw jerk. A pw snatch or jerk would be good up to 80% for us mortals-just for stimulation.
LIFT CYCLING PRIOR TO BIG MEETS
In my best seasons (the last month) I did multiple pw snatch singles at around 80% and multiple squat /bench/db sets of 3 at around 60%. I found that it was easy to maintain power and REALLY work on timing and tech with the multi-weight shots. The coordination really improved. I found out that 2 hard weight workouts in one week interfered with coordination. But using carefully selected lifts one could work around this(with some OT risk).
We generally lifted heavier 80+% singles on OL variants on Sun after meets and did multiple 3's at 50-60% later in the week. I really think that the light lifting has great value. I would guess that Andy B does his high pulls at high speed and can recover in time for the meets. He may be one of those guys who would have incredible power snatch & cleans with concentrated training and good orthopedic health.
HEAVY LIFTING IN SEASON-THE PITTFALLS
I totally agree with you about some of the programs we have seen discussed. Multiple studies have shown the first thing to deteriorate with both central and peripheral fatigue is coordination. How you could assimilate anything useful skill wise after the "sets of death" workout is beyond me.I think this is a recipe for fatigue, OT, and timing/technique problems that are hard to solve once they are hammered into the CNS. From the EMG data I have seen on the squat, the hamstrings are only really activated to a high level when moving at a high speed. The reduction in squat weight, done at a higher speed, may do less damage to the quads and activate the hamstrings (and hips). The tightness after a heavy squat workout is all too familiar to me. All of you have learned this the hard way. Sometimes people like to repeat history, make the same OT mistakes, and pay the technical and performance price on meet day.
I think that the young thrower needs to throw fresh to assimilate the skills perfectly. Once they are imprinted in the nervous system, you can use different mixes of lifts, throws, etc to jumpstart progress and break thru plateaus. With some more experience, you may be able to have her do an OL variant work out, and then head to the ring.
I also try to follow the Bompa guidelines on exercises. I keep a chart on the wall with his recommendations to remind me to plan carefully. I do think that they are pretty close for all levels of athletes.
I would use your format, monitor progress, watch your OT, and always be ready to adapt with exercise variations and shot wt changes. I do believe you are right on the money with the heavy shot being a special exercise that should be included. Throwing certainly requires recovery issues for the drug free athletes. The young thrower will likely need a lot of experience with the comp wt shot to ingrain accurate motor patterns-do it right the first time, it is much easier.
TRAINING THE LOWER BACK FOR THE THROWER
Many putters have cooked their low backs in-season and sacrificed many feet on meet day.
The OL guys did lots of HP's-mostly the clean HP's, which really hit the low back, hips, and hams. These could be helpful in the early GPP season, but murder during a higher throwing volume or meet time. I saw a study where the snatch HP's were actually less helpful as the real goal was the low back and hip work and correct tech off the floor-so more time was spent
on Clean HP's to attack the weak links.
The back can be easily over worked if you are doing a good volume of pull variants and strict squats. Toss in some multi-joint power squat work and you have a huge load for the thrower.
I would be VERY careful with any DL or Good Morning work. I like the Rev Hyper Ext because of the unique hamstring action. Too much back work can kill a season or wreck the tech. I would be VERY careful about adding any special back work now as the pulls & variants can give you great results with multiple benefits, as well as the different squats. The jerk is interestingly very dependent on back strength for success-which seems unusual because it is done perpendicular to the floor.You need the spine of steel.
The structural stresses on the low back and its importance in the throws are things that the OL guys do not worry about, except as they apply to pulls off the floor. I think that we have to adapt and modify their programs and not just copy them-I tried to copy them and really OT'd
several times.
In short, I would stick to the work out plan, be VERY cautious about any extra lowback work, and monitor training. The low back is the second muscle group (after the grip) to give out in a training session on OL pull variants. It will turn the power snatch into a reverse grip overhead power
curl.
I will send you some info on the 4 stage pull which is a good general exercise for the fall/early GPP that is a combination of DL and HP actions. Or you can make up your own 4 or 3 stage pull with a similar format. (You can earn points for creativity.) Mark Cameron (first 110kg OLer to C&J over 500 lbs.) used this from a Bulgarian program in 1976. Very tough but lots of
good hip,knee, and ankle work.
4-STAGE PULL
This is a combination lift of 4 movements that make up ONE rep:
1. DL from floor to knee height, return bar to floor
2. DL from floor to hip height, return bar to knee height
3. High pull from knee height to full extension, return bar to floor
4. High pull from floor to full extension
Usually 3 reps per set is enough. This is a killer for fall workouts for back, hip, knee workouts. I would not do this more than once per week for 4 weeks in early fall for conditioning and to reinforce proper pull tech. You can come up with your own variations adding Pow Snatch or Clean instead, etc.
Somehow this exercise got lost in the last 25 years-we did it alot-and got replaced by the "Romanian DL"-which is not nearly as challenging as the 4-stage.
The weights need not be heavy for an excellent workout.
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